Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234 LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 124

Thread: The Problem With Capitalism

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You're right about U.S. GDP. That's because the U.S. is what's called 'post-industrial'... when the mfg. % of GDP drops.

    You're a bit muddled about the rest.
    Probably. I worked in a Chevrolet plant in 1963 that used machinery developed by the Romans roughly 1,000 years ago. The difference was we had electric motors, while they used an ox walking around in a circle for power.

    Quick history:

    There is direct evidence that the Romans mechanised at least part of the extraction processes. They used water power from water wheels for grinding grains and sawing timber or stone, for example. A set of sixteen such overshot wheels is still visible at Barbegal near Arles dating from the 1st century AD or possibly earlier, the water being supplied by the main aqueduct to Arles. It is likely that the mills supplied flour for Arles and other towns locally. Multiple grain mills also existed on the Janiculum hill in Rome.

    Ausonius attests the use of a water mill for sawing stone in his poem Mosella from the 4th century AD. They could easily have adapted the technology to crush ore using tilt hammers, and just such is mentioned by Pliny the Elder in his Naturalis Historia dating to about 75 AD, and there is evidence for the method from Dolaucothi in South Wales. The Roman gold mines developed from c. 75 AD. The methods survived into the medieval period, as described and illustrated by Georgius Agricola in his De Re Metallica.

    They also used reverse overshot water-wheel for draining mines, the parts being prefabricated and numbered for ease of assembly. Multiple set of such wheels have been found in Spain at the Rio Tinto copper mines and a fragment of a wheel at Dolaucothi. An incomplete wheel from Spain is now on public show in the British Museum.

    Output[edit]
    The invention and widespread application of hydraulic mining, namely hushing and ground-sluicing, aided by the ability of the Romans to plan and execute mining operations on a large scale, allowed various base and precious metals to be extracted on a proto-industrial scale only rarely matched until the Industrial Revolution.[1]
    Last edited by Dan McCosh; 10-15-2019 at 04:40 PM.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    26,669

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    FWIW, I don't think 51% of the US GDP today stems from mass production. Aside from that, the formation of what could be called "factories"--groupings of specialized labor organized to produce something or other, predates the so-called "industrial revolution". Industry was revolutionized with the advent of new sources of power supplanting human muscle, mainly starting with textile production, and mining, not to mention those windmills grinding grain.
    What makes the industrial revolution 'so-called?' There's quite a difference between individual weavers working at their looms, as described in the Economist article, and mechanized looms that put weavers working hand looms out of business.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    4,397

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Of course 'industrialized' is a process... a spectrum... but one common benchmark is that 51+% of GDP needs to come from mass production.
    That is probably true, but a bit arbitrary.
    The Venice ship yards that undergirded the medici trade and influence were very large scale but, hmmmmmm, industrial.

    I'd suggest that 'Industrialisation' should also be pegged to the use, for mass production, of a primary energy source like coal, rather than muscle power; people or animals.


    I agree with John in #62.

    ....those who denigrate socialism dont know what they're saying, are most likely very poorly informed, or just plain so indoctrinated that they cant see past the propaganda that is being disseminated by those who would feel threatened by the change that would bring about.
    I wouldn't underestimate the idea that there are some who just like being on top and they want there to be powerless and impoverished people.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    60,374

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    That is probably true, but a bit arbitrary.
    The Venice ship yards that undergirded the medici trade and influence were very large scale but, hmmmmmm, industrial.

    I'd suggest that 'Industrialisation' should also be pegged to the use, for mass production, of a primary energy source like coal, rather than muscle power; people or animals.


    I agree with John in #62.



    I wouldn't underestimate the idea that there are some who just like being on top and they want there to be powerless and impoverished people.
    Indeed it is.

    There is a matrix of characteristics that define 'industrialized' for economists. That rough and arbitrary 51% metric is but one easily-grasped example.

    Something beyond human power is another point. John was getting at the same trait when he talked about 'the workmanship of risk' vs. 'the workmanship of certain/reproducability'. You don't get to the latter with hand (muscle-powered) work. Before coal... came water power.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I live in a "socialist democracy". Its not often called that, but it fills all the criteria, same as the Scandinavian and pretty much all of Western Europe, Japan, Korea and a lot of other countries. I own property, boats, vehicles, and a modest investment portfolio, my work is rewarded with the means to support myself, but I also get the benefit of a non contributory, and non asset tested pension, a medical system that does not require me to take out health insurance, an education system that is fully funded to age ( about) 17 and heavily subsidised from there on through degrees, masters and PhDs, and even at my age I can access that to upgrade my own skills.
    We do have poor, we do have rich, but from what I see of it, the social safety net gives even the very poor and sick the opportunity to live decent lives.
    Our system is not perfect, I dont think that there is such a thing as a perfect society, but watching some debates on the subject, I'd like to say that those who denigrate socialism dont know what they're saying, are most likely very poorly informed, or just plain so indoctrinated that they cant see past the propaganda that is being disseminated by those who would feel threatened by the change that would bring about.

    John Welsford
    Give that man a GOOD cigar!
    Rattling the teacups.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    4,397

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    'the workmanship of risk' vs. 'the workmanship of certain/reproducability'.
    "Workmanship of risk/certainty"
    This is a concept by either the english philosopher David Pine(?) I think (Nature and aesthetics of design), or possibly i read it in what'isnames 'System of Objects'.
    Its about aesthetics. The difference between a hand made object and a machine made one.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Thats sorta the way i see it.
    Not that wealth owners have to work but their capital should.

    When Trump gave the richest 1% that $1.5trillion, they were already siting on an estimated $2trillion uninvested.
    The system presently is regulated but regulated to reward those with capital. For example, if you invest in housing (like here in Oz) there are a pile of tax advantages, but now you now have big (ish) money competing for a resource that every family wants to own and the prices go skyward. While the money is sitting in the house, it is appreciating faster than it would sitting in a bank, BUT it's not doing anything productive - its just sitting there. Alongside that, young families can't afford houses. Now its just an entrenched system that rewards those who own capital and makes life very hard for those who don't.

    Regs that irrationally reward ownership of capital only create bubbles.
    A tax system that irrationally rewards ownership of capital prevents the redistribution of wealth.

    It's that word irrational that strikes me - we live in an irrational capitalist world, where ownership of capital by a few is seen as the ultimate state for society, for no obvious reason.
    One of the better posts. When the above situation happens, there is a lack of money velocity in the real economy. Apple buying back its own shares, with its own money, to boost its own stock price, just like the other FANG stocks, was illegal for good reasons until the "money talked" and regulations changed. JP Morgan was behind the IPO float of "WeWork", of which they themselves valued at around $50 billion, in the space of a week it looks like WeWork vauation is less than $5billion, and looks to be going under due to it corporate practice model . It was a scam from the start, backed up by banking interests who survive on outrageous fees. Crony capitalism is the problem, and those that are responsible for regulation that only suits those at the top......its a form of wealth confiscation from everyone else. It is a short sighted buisness model to not see that if your consumers have no money to spend, then your buisness will fail; but as the guy who started WeWork has shown, you can go out on a $900 million property buying spree before the collapse, then so what?

    We found paying employees above normal rates when they proved themselves capable of the job, to be more of a buisness benefit, happy workers who feel valued perform better and that has a knock on effect with customer relations and turnover. Does it hit bottom line profit? absolutely, but maybe the socialist in me is less concerned about enriching only myself, and seeing the greater benefit of also enriching those around me. The flow of extra money in circulation is a benefit for all. As Gypsie pointed out, money stashed in an "investment", only benefits raising asset prices and not the real economy.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post

    I don't know what you intend by using the phrase 'true socialism', but IMO Communism is the polar opposite of Capitalism. The Government owns everything.

    .
    Your ideal of communism is open to debate..

    communist" is not state capitalist, but "Communist" (after the party) is. "communism" has taken many meanings but the original meaning was worker ownership of capital, that's it. Not state ownership, not capitalist ownership, but widely dispersed worker ownership. Basically real, actual democracy.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    60,374

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    "Workmanship of risk/certainty"
    This is a concept by either the english philosopher David Pine(?) I think (Nature and aesthetics of design), or possibly i read it in what'isnames 'System of Objects'.
    Its about aesthetics. The difference between a hand made object and a machine made one.
    Yes, Pye is talking about 'making', and designing, and aesthetics.

    But the distinction he draws in this instance is illustrative of one of the differences between 'craft' work and 'industrial' work.

    Boudrillard is more about political economics, and not relevant, as far as I can remember.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    What makes the industrial revolution 'so-called?'
    Only that the phrase usually is a way of describing the advent of generating mechanical force via heat engines and magnetism, rather than describing the organization of work. The only relevance to the OP is the notion that capitalism didn't exist prior to the industrial revolution.

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Back to the OP: Why can't capitalism lower the cost of housing? Seems like the most obvious problem.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Back to the OP: Why can't capitalism lower the cost of housing? Seems like the most obvious problem.
    Housing is one of the most lucrative capital investments EVER.

    Lowering the cost of housing is directly antithetical to capitalism.


    In fact, raising the cost of housing has been the mechanism by which several members of this forum have used to get a leg up.

    It is one of the few ways in which a person can capitalize their own labor.

    Great for the owner, unspeakably horrible for those who are struggling.

    Real estate speculation is probably one of the leading causes of homelessness and hopelessness in the US.
    Rattling the teacups.

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Just one example of how capitalism doesn't seem to support basic needs at the bottom of the economic ladder. Seems odd that buying an object that is wearing out is a "capital investment". No different than buying a car.

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Just one example of how capitalism doesn't seem to support basic needs at the bottom of the economic ladder. Seems odd that buying an object that is wearing out is a "capital investment". No different than buying a car.
    Land doesn't wear out. Not its usefulness in supporting a dwelling, anyway.
    Rattling the teacups.

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    In fact, I would say that we are going to have to come to grips with the fact that housing is a basic human right.
    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    In fact, I would say that we are going to have to come to grips with the fact that housing is a basic human right.
    I have mentioned this before that in the past there used to be a law where a house could only be sold for the cost of materials and the labour to build it. Imagine how much spare money there would be to spend in the real economy, than being paid to banks each month. I certainly can not afford to go back to the town where i was born. Rising housing costs are of no benefit to anyone except a bank, and when the bubble bursts, you get to bail them instead of letting a failed buisness model continue, hardly what one expects in the land of capitalism........

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Will everyone simply not quote the troll, please?

    This thread has actually begun to be interesting, so let's not allow him to destroy it, yes?
    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    33,528

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Back to the OP: Why can't capitalism lower the cost of housing? Seems like the most obvious problem.
    Capitalism is the seeking of money via business. Housing is a business. If an area has a lot of high paying jobs, the cost of housing goes up, simply because it can.

    You can look at Flint or Detroit. Their housing costs were based on all the good paying auto making jobs that had ben there for generations. When the jobs left, the cost of housing dropped and people had more left on their mortgage than they paid for their house. They couldn't afford the mortgage they had. They couldn't sell the home for what was owed. Nasty.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Capitalism is the seeking of money via business. Housing is a business. If an area has a lot of high paying jobs, the cost of housing goes up, simply because it can.

    You can look at Flint or Detroit. Their housing costs were based on all the good paying auto making jobs that had ben there for generations. When the jobs left, the cost of housing dropped and people had more left on their mortgage than they paid for their house. They couldn't afford the mortgage they had. They couldn't sell the home for what was owed. Nasty.
    Might note that the wealthiest person in the state of Michigan is a mortgage broker, who made his money in the housing collapse. His net worth today is about $10 billion. (His is the largest mortgage company in the U.S. today.) Might also try to explain why the collapse started in the early 1960s, during the largest boom in the auto industry. It preceeded, rather than followed, the loss of jobs in the auto industry.
    Last edited by Dan McCosh; 10-16-2019 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Will everyone simply not quote the troll, please?

    This thread has actually begun to be interesting, so let's not allow him to destroy it, yes?
    Are you feeling lonely and want to be in Keith "boycott" & DavidG tag team? I hear 2s company and 3s a crowd. If you dont want to converse with others, why start threads?

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Do you have a warrant?
    Posts
    6,227

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Might note that the wealthiest person in the state of Michigan is a mortgage broker, who made his money in the housing collapse. His net worth today is about $10 billion. Might also try to explain why the collapse started in the early 1960s, during the largest boom in the auto industry. It preceeded, rather than followed, the loss of jobs in the auto industry.
    Conversely, prosperity. Fat auto worker wages allowed white flight to the suburbs. Happened in New York City in the '70s.

    In a very modest Detroit 'burb, Warren, auto assembly workers were making more than my dad, an engineer with 6 years experience, but he worked for the government. My dad tells me my mom wondered why he did not have a second car, a couple snowmobiles, a cottage "up north", a good sized powerboat moored on Lake St. Clair. The neighbor had all those things, and more vacation time. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact. I'm sorry worker wages have stagnated over the past 40 years. I'm sorry that skilled metal trades have disappeared from Michigan; I worked my way through college as a toolmaker.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Capitalism is the seeking of money via business. Housing is a business. If an area has a lot of high paying jobs, the cost of housing goes up, simply because it can.
    This is true. But, building houses should be the buisness itself, when they become homes, they should be just that. No reason for a house to rise in value above normal rate of inflation, and not just because banks decided to lend you 16 times your income. Banks are behind the rising asset price, not excellent jobs and wage increases.

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    This is true. But, building houses should be the buisness itself, when they become homes, they should be just that. No reason for a house to rise in value above normal rate of inflation, and not just because banks decided to lend you 16 times your income. Banks are behind the rising asset price, not excellent jobs and wage increases.
    That was the subject of the book and movie "The Big Short", about the financing behind the housing bubble. Nothing much seems to have been done to prevent a repeat.

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    14,798

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Conversely, prosperity. Fat auto worker wages allowed white flight to the suburbs. Happened in New York City in the '70s.

    In a very modest Detroit 'burb, Warren, auto assembly workers were making more than my dad, an engineer with 6 years experience, but he worked for the government. My dad tells me my mom wondered why he did not have a second car, a couple snowmobiles, a cottage "up north", a good sized powerboat moored on Lake St. Clair. The neighbor had all those things, and more vacation time. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact. I'm sorry worker wages have stagnated over the past 40 years. I'm sorry that skilled metal trades have disappeared from Michigan; I worked my way through college as a toolmaker.
    Interesting that you identify Warren as a "very modest" suburb. It houses the GM tech center, which employs about 15,000 research engineers, was where the booster rocket for the Saturn V was assembled, and once had the largest number of millionaires per capita in the U.S. Also had a few auto plants, and a trailer park where Eminem grew up.

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    11,664

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    That was the subject of the book and movie "The Big Short", about the financing behind the housing bubble. Nothing much seems to have been done to prevent a repeat.
    Which shows that the banks control those who are supposed to regulate them. When banks are found to be breaking the law, they get ligislation passed to make that "crime" legal. .....in the meantime they use depositers money to pay fines, which is just the cost of doing buisness. They should have all gone bankrupt, in a good, true capitalist economy, buisness failure is a way to get rid of failing buisness models and allow those with the right buisness model to grow. Now you have zombie banks and the cost normal people are going to face when the collapse comes, is going to be even greater. Banking is the biggest hustle on this planet, and money talks......

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    In the OP, I asserted that capitalism fits with a certain type of personality, making certain people wealthy beyond any reason simply as a result of how they were born.

    We as a society see acting against an individual because of race, sex and gender as abhorrent, yet we have no problem with Jeff Bezos abusing everyone else because of how he was born.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Not that long ago? Matthew Shepard. 1998. Almost to the day...

    Hateful monsters killed that boy because of how he was born.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Because capitalism has gained enough power to usurp the State, we will soon be asking ourselves why is it OK for someone to own half the freaking planet because of how they were born.
    Rattling the teacups.

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    26,669

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Yes, Pye is talking about 'making', and designing, and aesthetics.

    But the distinction he draws in this instance is illustrative of one of the differences between 'craft' work and 'industrial' work.

    Boudrillard is more about political economics, and not relevant, as far as I can remember.
    I think Pye's distinction is pretty basic to the distinction between craftsmanship and industrialization, and it's a distinction dear to the heart of every wooden boat enthusiast. I've seen windmills centuries old on the passes into Lasithi Plateau, which were used to replace the labor of many men or animals for pumping water. But pumping water or grinding grain replaces labor, industrialization replaces skill. When the Medici made Florence a center for textile making, they did not replace the skill of the weavers, they simply brought resources and skills together.

    Once you move skills from the worker to the company, you have a completely different relationship between the owner of the enterprise and the person doing the work. That's what Marx was getting at when he invented the term 'capitalism.'

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Was it Pye?

    I thought it would have been Ruskin.
    Rattling the teacups.

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    26,669

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Was it Pye?

    I thought it would have been Ruskin.
    David Pye. He made furniture, and taught about design and wrote books about it. Kind of nice to get some theory from an academic who actually made things.

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    In the OP, I asserted that capitalism fits with a certain type of personality, making certain people wealthy beyond any reason simply as a result of how they were born.

    We as a society see acting against an individual because of race, sex and gender as abhorrent, yet we have no problem with Jeff Bezos abusing everyone else because of how he was born.



    Because capitalism has gained enough power to usurp the State, we will soon be asking ourselves why is it OK for someone to own half the freaking planet because of how they were born.
    Once again.

    Will we, as a species, accept that certain people have the right to own everything outright simply because of an accident of birth?

    Because the only reason they have for getting out of bed in the morning is that they want to own everything, rather than make jokes or play music or raise their children or teach the children reading and writing and 'rithmetic?
    Rattling the teacups.

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    8,828

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    This is true. But, building houses should be the business itself, when they become homes, they should be just that. No reason for a house to rise in value above normal rate of inflation, and not just because banks decided to lend you 16 times your income. Banks are behind the rising asset price, not excellent jobs and wage increases.
    Actually there is a reason. It provides one shelter in an area where one can charge for the use of their capital - one's labor.

    You can certainly build your own home from raw materials, but most people find that buying a home - even at what you might think are high prices, is a better use of their capital - their time.

    I will admit that the math is more complicated when one views one's labor as capita, but most people seem to make at least reasonable choices as to where to live and how much to pay for shelter.
    Life is complex.

  32. #102
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    689

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    but how does one transition from savage capitalism to democratic socialism a la Scandinavia ?

    George Lakey argues in "Viking Economics" that it is a matter of the middle and working classes winning
    the class struggle and seizing political power.

    A good, provocative read . .

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...king-economics

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    31,130

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    This is true. But, building houses should be the buisness itself, when they become homes, they should be just that. No reason for a house to rise in value above normal rate of inflation, and not just because banks decided to lend you 16 times your income. Banks are behind the rising asset price, not excellent jobs and wage increases.
    A sure sign of the Apocalypse.

    I agree with Skaraborgcraft.

    ETA that Skaraborgcraft is a mendacious Russian propagandist with no regard for truth or democratic self-governance.
    Last edited by oznabrag; 01-02-2020 at 01:24 PM.
    Rattling the teacups.

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    60,374

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Once again.

    Will we, as a species, accept that certain people have the right to own everything outright simply because of an accident of birth?

    Because the only reason they have for getting out of bed in the morning is that they want to own everything, rather than make jokes or play music or raise their children or teach the children reading and writing and 'rithmetic?
    No.

    That's what 'well-regulated capitalism' does... recognize that the urges that drive such people can be destructive... and keep them in check. Channeled into productive activities. Free to become wealthy... just not obscenely wealthy.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    60,374

    Default Re: The Problem With Capitalism

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    A sure sign of the Apocalypse.

    I agree with Skaraborgcraft.
    Sorry... just a bit of over-simplification. And way too reactive.

    Let the market work, but siphon off some of the proceeds to make housing on some basic level affordable for all. There's no way, in a country as affluent (in the aggregate) as ours, that we should have the homeless problem we have. That even those who can afford rent have to pay such a huge % of their income for housing. It's a symptom of larger issues.

    But not even the Scandinavians take such a broad-brush approach as overall price freezes on housing. They know better. Too many unintended consequences. Too much torquing of other factors.

    While one might imagine circumstances where such manipulation might be worth the cost (rent control in NYC?)... there IS a cost. And it's usually too high. I don't know NYC well enough to say too much, but I kinda suspect that rent controls there linger... not entirely because of their utility... but because of inertia and a large population with a vested interest.

    Instead of reinventing the wheel, I suggest a 'best practices' evaluation. Once you begin to grasp how & why others (more successfully than us) provide reasonably priced housing, you'll be in a better position to either choose among the best to adapt for our circumstance... or dream up (from an informed perspective) something new and better. That might have a better chance of succeeding.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •