Epstein's autopsy raises questions

[CWSmith]

The Washington Post reports:

Autopsy finds broken bones in Jeffrey Epstein’s neck, deepening questions around his death

You can read it for yourself.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...cid=spartandhp

[Joe (SoCal)]

From the link

Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject.

[TomF]

Well now. Count me among the not terribly surprised.

[CWSmith]

Joe, you left out the most interesting part:

Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

[Joe (SoCal)]

I take it none of you have ever been to, or had the pleasure of being a visitor or a "guest" at state run correctional facility. Trust me you wont find a room on Airbnb Lux

Jeffrey Epstein’s death by suicide was shocking — but it also follows a far too familiar pattern of deaths in jails: Deaths from suicide in correctional facilities are common, particularly in jails.

Suicide is the leading cause of death within jails

Every year, more than 300 people die by suicide in jails, according to the Vera Institute of Justice. Those in jail are seven times more likely to die by suicide than those in prisons. The first few weeks are crucial: A quarter of these people kill themselves in the first 24 hours, and half die within two weeks.
Part of this is because of the “shock of confinement” when an individual is initially taken into jail. The feeling of having lost a sense of normalcy can often be traumatic and push inmates to make drastic decisions.
A larger problem is that there is a disproportionate number of people with mental illness in jails, said professor Christine Tartaro, a criminal justice expert at Stockton University in New Jersey.
“Incarceration is difficult for anybody to deal with,” she said. “But to deal with it while dealing with the symptoms of a major mental illness makes it very hard.”

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/14/208022...e-jail-problem

[SeanM26]

Isn't that how hanging kills? Strangulation? I know that when hanging was a done as a means of capital punishment they would often drop you several feet to try and break the neck and cause a quicker death. That would be hard to do in a jail cell.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Joe, you left out the most interesting part:

Yea that addition was meant solely to contradict and cause sensationalism to the story. To be honest I found it poor journalism. The article seems to do that often add a dash of fact with a dash of whataboutism to muddy it up. I would prefer a pure autopsy and not all the conspiracy conjecture.

Eventually it will come out that Elvis killed Epstein

[AlanMc]

Yea that addition was meant solely to contradict and cause sensationalism to the story. To be honest I found it poor journalism. The article seems to do that often add a dash of fact with a dash of whataboutism to muddy it up. I would prefer a pure autopsy and not all the conspiracy conjecture.

Eventually it will come out that Elvis killed Epstein

i did hear they found traces of peanut butter and bananas on his neck

[Joe (SoCal)]

Isn't that how hanging kills? Strangulation? I know that when hanging was a done as a means of capital punishment they would often drop you several feet to try and break the neck and cause a quicker death. That would be hard to do in a jail cell.

People don't know how people really hang themself in jail. They think they they need to make a grand gesture like a hangman noose hanging from a secure ceiling beam and a chair. When actually all you need is something that will tighten around your neck and short enough so that if you sit down and don't struggle long enough you will pass out. A door nob, or a bed frame will do the trick.

[TomF]

Yeah. An improvised suicide hanging in a cell seems unlikely to have the opportunity to generate all the force needed to break multiple neck bones, IMO. Won't have jumped off the bed with a rope fastened to an overhead fixture ... because it's standard "code" that there aren't overhead fixtures that would carry the weight in such cells. It's more common that what someone can manage is a slow strangle, setting the improvised rope so that it would hold your body a bit above the ground so that gravity will keep things tight once you pass out. Think of slumping against the wall or bed, with your upper body kept from sliding to the floor by strips of cloth you've tied to a doorhandle or etc. Not an easy thing to generate the force to break bones that way; fairly easy, though, to close off a windpipe or carotid artery.

[CWSmith]

Yea that addition was meant solely to contradict and cause sensationalism to the story. To be honest I found it poor journalism. The article seems to do that often add a dash of fact with a dash of whataboutism to muddy it up. I would prefer a pure autopsy and not all the conspiracy conjecture.

Eventually it will come out that Elvis killed Epstein

You have me at a disadvantage. All I have to go on is the statement of an expert in the field. You have your experience.

But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

[AlanMc]

Yeah. An improvised suicide hanging in a cell seems unlikely to have the opportunity to generate all the force needed to break multiple neck bones, IMO. Won't have jumped off the bed with a rope fastened to an overhead fixture ... because it's standard "code" that there aren't overhead fixtures that would carry the weight in such cells. It's more common that what someone can manage is a slow strangle, setting the improvised rope so that it would hold your body a bit above the ground so that gravity will keep things tight once you pass out. Think of slumping against the wall or bed, with your upper body kept from sliding to the floor by strips of cloth you've tied to a doorhandle or etc. Not an easy thing to generate the force to break bones that way; fairly easy, though, to close off a windpipe or carotid artery.

yeah, that's how i'm picturing it as well. you just wouldn't be breaking neck bones while quietly choking yourself out in a jail cell

[Peerie Maa]

Yeah. An improvised suicide hanging in a cell seems unlikely to have the opportunity to generate all the force needed to break multiple neck bones, IMO. Won't have jumped off the bed with a rope fastened to an overhead fixture ... because it's standard "code" that there aren't overhead fixtures that would carry the weight in such cells. It's more common that what someone can manage is a slow strangle, setting the improvised rope so that it would hold your body a bit above the ground so that gravity will keep things tight once you pass out. Think of slumping against the wall or bed, with your upper body kept from sliding to the floor by strips of cloth you've tied to a doorhandle or etc. Not an easy thing to generate the force to break bones that way; fairly easy, though, to close off a windpipe or carotid artery.

We re discussing the hyoid. Not the strongest bone in the body.

Jonathan L. Arden, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, said a hyoid can be broken in many circumstances but is more commonly associated with homicidal strangulation than suicidal hanging.
Arden, who was not involved in the Epstein autopsy, said that in general, a finding of a broken hyoid requires pathologists to conduct more extensive investigation. That investigation can include analysis of the location of the noose, how narrow the noose is, and if the body experienced any substantial drop in the course of the hanging.
The age of the deceased is also important, Arden said. The hyoid starts out as three small bones with joint-like connections but hardens during middle age into a U-shape that can break more easily.

“If, hypothetically, the hyoid bone is broken, that would generally raise questions about strangulation, but it is not definitive and does not exclude suicidal hanging,” he said.

[Canoez]

i did hear they found traces of peanut butter and bananas on his neck

Ok, sick, but funny in a twisted way.

[TomF]

Yeah, I read that too Nick. Just saying that if the hyoid is frequently broken in homicide strangulation and "not ruled out" but infrequently broken in suicidal ... Even though the breakage is more likely in older individuals. The other thing, though, is that the autopsy says that there are "multiple" neck bones which were fractured, not only the hyoid. Not definitive IMO, but certainly raises questions which ought not need to be raised.

[Rum_Pirate]

People don't know how people really hang themself in jail. They think they they need to make a grand gesture like a hangman noose hanging from a secure ceiling beam and a chair. When actually all you need is something that will tighten around your neck and short enough so that if you sit down and don't struggle long enough you will pass out. A door nob, or a bed frame will do the trick.

Did his cell have a door knob on the inside?

Did his cell have a bed frame?
Thought it was solid concrete slab.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Did his cell have a door knob on the inside?

Did his cell have a bed frame?
Thought it was solid concrete slab.

All you need is ANY sort of leverage, as they say if there is a will there is a way.

[LeeG]

Only question I have is how long this can distract from the fiasco of Trump and McConnel

[CWSmith]

I found a guy that hung himself, he was actually standing up eyed wide open, he tied a rope to a beam that was not high at all. He was pretty blue and ripe. Just glad kids did not find him.

I am truly sorry that you've had that experience and I hope I can live and die without ever having it myself. I was with my mother in law when she passed and stepped out of the room briefly before my wife's grandmother passed, but finding a suicide is something I hope I never do.

[TomF]

A 14 year old kid got onto my caseload back in the day when his mom found him hanging by his belt from a pipe in the basement. If she hadn't forgotten her car keys and come back inside ..

[CWSmith]

Seven years ago I cut my buddy’s dad down. He missed his first grandkid by a little more than a year.

Honestly, recovering a hanged body is less unpleasant than recovering one with a blown off head...

Peace,
Robert

My brother was in high school and he was talking with his girlfriend on the HAM radio.

She heard the explosion, went upstairs, and found her father had shot himself.

They are married now with 3 grown kids, so she got through it, but I would not wish that on a kid for any reason any time anywhere. To this day I'm surprised it didn't destroy her.

[CWSmith]

She’s stronger than me.

I flipping cracked, Bro.

Peace,
Robert

Who wouldn't? This is not what we are evolved to handle. Frankly, I think I can still see the damage to her. She's strong, but her mother seems to pull her strings easily and I suspect it was the loss of her father in that way that did it.

[TomF]

And that's one reason to think closely about suicide, however one feels about one's own life and despair. Because life and death are in fact activities that happen within a society, within a context. And we don't any of us have choices and actions which affect only ourselves.

[UCanoe_2]

Good article from Psychiatric Times about suicides in jail -- not specifically commenting about Epstein.

"...According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, suicide has been the leading cause of death in US jails every year since 2000...."

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/cou...epsteins-death

[Peerie Maa]

Yeah, I read that too Nick. Just saying that if the hyoid is frequently broken in homicide strangulation and "not ruled out" but infrequently broken in suicidal ... Even though the breakage is more likely in older individuals. The other thing, though, is that the autopsy says that there are "multiple" neck bones which were fractured, not only the hyoid. Not definitive IMO, but certainly raises questions which ought not need to be raised.

Yes, and strangulation normally breaks only the hyoid, nothing else. The medical Examiner has their work cut out with this one.

[Decourcy]

Yeah, I read that too Nick. Just saying that if the hyoid is frequently broken in homicide strangulation and "not ruled out" but infrequently broken in suicidal ... Even though the breakage is more likely in older individuals. The other thing, though, is that the autopsy says that there are "multiple" neck bones which were fractured, not only the hyoid. Not definitive IMO, but certainly raises questions which ought not need to be raised.

Does it say "multiple bones" or "multiple breaks"?

[TomF]

Does it say "multiple bones" or "multiple breaks"?

An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death. Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

Sounds like one way or another quite a lot of force was applied, if multiple bones were broken.

[Decourcy]

Sounds like one way or another quite a lot of force was applied, if multiple bones were broken.

Hmm. I'll hold off on any opinion until I hear what actual bones were broken. Still pretty vague. Could still just be the one.

[Joe (SoCal)]

This home is for sale it is part of a 3 unit condo our friends live in the unit with the garage on the right. The unit on the left originally went on the market for just over a million and was totally renovated ( a little cold for our liking ). Being that our friends live next door we decided to take a look at it. While we were there the agent mentioned that the previous owner had "Passed Away"

Afterward we went next door to visit with our friends after a glass of wine they told us the story of the previous owner. It seemed he had fell on hard times and was having difficulty making the mortgage and they were about to foreclose so he hung himself on the back deck for the other neighbors to see. My friend who is a a doctor found him hanging and took him down but he was already gone.

The house has been on the market for 278 days ( Unheard of in this location ) and they have dropped the price over $100K

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...5670128_zpid/?

[ahp]

Maybe I have missed something. Where was he when the guards found him, on the floor, dangling from something, in his bunk?

[mdh]

I just wanna say i don’t have nothing on the Clintons, and i won’t never say nothing, and i promise i won’t testify.

[Rum_Pirate]

I just wanna say i don’t have nothing on the Clintons, and i won’t never say nothing, and i promise i won’t testify.

There is a vehicle for you :

Clint.jpg

[Rum_Pirate]

This home is for sale it is part of a 3 unit condo our friends live in the unit with the garage on the right. The unit on the left originally went on the market for just over a million and was totally renovated ( a little cold for our liking ). Being that our friends live next door we decided to take a look at it. . . .

The house has been on the market for 278 days ( Unheard of in this location ) and they have dropped the price over $100K

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...5670128_zpid/?

"totally renovated ( a little cold for our liking )." Nothing a coat or two of paint wouldn't change.

Put in an offer of $750.00.

[Decourcy]

This home is for sale it is part of a 3 unit condo our friends live in the unit with the garage on the right. The unit on the left originally went on the market for just over a million and was totally renovated ( a little cold for our liking ). Being that our friends live next door we decided to take a look at it. While we were there the agent mentioned that the previous owner had "Passed Away"

Afterward we went next door to visit with our friends after a glass of wine they told us the story of the previous owner. It seemed he had fell on hard times and was having difficulty making the mortgage and they were about to foreclose so he hung himself on the back deck for the other neighbors to see. My friend who is a a doctor found him hanging and took him down but he was already gone.

The house has been on the market for 278 days ( Unheard of in this location ) and they have dropped the price over $100K

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...5670128_zpid/?

If you lived in many European cities you'd have a hard time finding a home where no-one has died. Wouldn't stop me. Shouldn't stop you. Let other people's superstitious thoughts hinder them from getting a potential deal.

On the other hand, never live next door to friends.

[Canoeyawl]

The house I found the body in sold, the new people dont care a wit but if I go in the garage sometimes.....its a vacation home and I watch it..... I look at the beam and ponder the poor guy.. it's only 6 foot high.

Must have been a short man