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  1. #1
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    Default Question on the 2nd amendment

    Is there a constitutional right to own a tank? A fully-armed combat aircraft? A Thomson submachine gun? Is there a line somewhere, and what is it? Who gets to set it?

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    Default Question on the 2nd amendment

    Yes, apparently, and unfortunately, in my opinion. Probably not an armed jet, but plenty of old fighter jets out there. All it takes is money. Lots of it.

    Ken


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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gentleman Sawyer View Post
    Yes, apparently, and unfortunately, in my opinion. Probably not an armed jet, but plenty of old fighter jets out there. All it takes is money. Lots of it.

    Ken


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    The question was an armed combat aircraft. Say a P-51 with operational guns.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gentleman Sawyer View Post
    Yes, apparently, and unfortunately, in my opinion. Probably not an armed jet, but plenty of old fighter jets out there. All it takes is money. Lots of it.

    Ken


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    The guy who played 'Worf' on the Star Trek: Next Generation series owns and flies an old jet fighter, something from the 1950's, I believe.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    OP: It is fuzzy.

    Military fights other military.

    I feel that private citizens should have the right to any weapon possessed by domestic police agencies, because defensive needs are the same. If the police say, "You don't need a semi-auto rifle", my response would be, "Then neither do you." See how that works?

    Don't agree? Look up Ruby Ridge. The guy was a racist. But he didn't deserve to have his wife shot dead from hundreds of yards away by the FBI when she was no threat to the officers. This followed the killing of their 14 year old son, and family dog, by US Marshals.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    I’m in. Can I get 19 more bilgerats to buy in with me! This would make a fun toy.

    https://theaviationist.com/2017/01/1...-one-for-sale/
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    I’m in. Can I get 19 more bilgerats to buy in with me! This would make a fun toy.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    It depends upon who is interpreting the 2nd Amendment. The words in the actual second amendment are 'keep' and 'arms'. "keep" does not mean 'own' "arms' would include all weaponry.

    The first clause in the 2nd amendment says this amendment is written because of the need of a well regulated militia.

    THAT MILITIA, in article 1 sec. 8 was to be armed and trained BY THE GOVERNMENT, and to be called up to enforce laws, repel invasions, and suppress uprisings.

    That describes our military, National guard, and police. All armed and trained by the government, and all called upon to do those things.

    Unless one believes the 2nd gives one the right to have nuclear weapons, one must believe a line is to be drawn

    More importantly, if one put it in context, those who joined the militia got to keep all the arms the government supplied, which would have meant muskets, canons, possibly horses to pull the canons, etc.

    As far as owning weaponry, the constitution is actually silent. Sadly the Supreme Court did some linguistic gymnastics to interpret 'keep' as own. Then again the Supreme Court decided corporations are people and gave us Citizens United.

    They may get to interpret all of this, but they do make mistakes.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    There was a story on 60 minutes or similar program a number of years ago about a privately owned Apache helicopter. As I recall, the guy went to military surplus auctions and bought all the parts he needed to assemble a complete helicopter. He was using it in his logging business. It wasn't armed, but the story left the impression that someone buying stuff from these auctions could easily do so. I have no idea whether this is true, but it would certainly be the slant I would expect from 60 minutes.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fonzoga View Post
    There was a story on 60 minutes or similar program a number of years ago about a privately owned Apache helicopter. As I recall, the guy went to military surplus auctions and bought all the parts he needed to assemble a complete helicopter. He was using it in his logging business. It wasn't armed, but the story left the impression that someone buying stuff from these auctions could easily do so. I have no idea whether this is true, but it would certainly be the slant I would expect from 60 minutes.
    Highly unlikely. Aside from the fact that the Apache is a $20+ million dollar bird, I really doubt the Pentagon is selling spare parts and airframes at auction.
    Was this program an Alex Jones podcast perhaps?
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    Highly unlikely. Aside from the fact that the Apache is a $20+ million dollar bird, I really doubt the Pentagon is selling spare parts and airframes at auction.
    Was this program an Alex Jones podcast perhaps?
    Not sure about Apaches, but the government does in fact sell off old aircraft...

    https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/...91QSCI19088601
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Not sure about Apaches, but the government does in fact sell off old aircraft...

    https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/...91QSCI19088601
    I never meant to imply that they didn't, I just don't see them sell off any Apaches for the next 20 years.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    I never meant to imply that they didn't, I just don't see them sell off any Apaches for the next 20 years.
    The Apache has been around for a long time. The same amount of time that the Blackhawk in the link has been around. They are also selling Chinooks from the same era.

    They “de-militarize” those airframes before selling them. Mostly involving certain electronics. There is nothing inherently different on an Apache from a Blackhawk that would prevent them from being sold off. In fact Boeing makes them now, as well as the Chinook. Boeing told the government they won’t upgrade the older Chinooks anymore, that they will only sell them new ones. Which is why you can buy a Chinook from GSA. So it’s no stretch to believe they’ll do the same with Apaches.

    Perhaps they could be further stripped down and turned into longline (firefighting/construction) birds?

    I’ve pulled out all the extra wiring and misc. brackets, etc out of Blackhawks, and that stuff adds up to hundreds of pounds quite easily.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    The Apache has been around for a long time. The same amount of time that the Blackhawk in the link has been around. They are also selling Chinooks from the same era.

    They “de-militarize” those airframes before selling them. Mostly involving certain electronics. There is nothing inherently different on an Apache from a Blackhawk that would prevent them from being sold off. In fact Boeing makes them now, as well as the Chinook. Boeing told the government they won’t upgrade the older Chinooks anymore, that they will only sell them new ones. Which is why you can buy a Chinook from GSA. So it’s no stretch to believe they’ll do the same with Apaches.

    Perhaps they could be further stripped down and turned into longline (firefighting/construction) birds?

    I’ve pulled out all the extra wiring and misc. brackets, etc out of Blackhawks, and that stuff adds up to hundreds of pounds quite easily.
    They will sell to anyone..except JOP!
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    They will sell to anyone..except JOP!


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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Then when you have a Bird, get some Gat Cranks for your door guns! $49.99 each!

    https://youtu.be/6qS0pF9EV5o

    Legal machine guns!! I bet an engineering kinda guy could mount ar's on stands and make that operate from the stick!!
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Again, the second amendment is a crap document. It can (has been, and is) be interpreted to mean almost anything. It’s useless.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    It is absolutely legal to own a tank or a military aircraft. However, anything that is classified as a Class III weapon (full auto, like a Thompson gun) or a destructive device (grenades, bombs, artillery shells, etc.) is highly regulated and generally not legal to own. So while it is legal to own a tank, it is not legal to own a functional main gun or machine gun on said tank. Same with aircraft. So Michael Dorn can fly his _unarmed_ MiG around all he likes as long as he can pay to run it. There are several hundred WWII aircraft still flying around the world but I doubt you'd find many with the original weaponry intact.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    I’d like a type 1 phaser

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Jones View Post
    It is absolutely legal to own a tank or a military aircraft. However, anything that is classified as a Class III weapon (full auto, like a Thompson gun) or a destructive device (grenades, bombs, artillery shells, etc.) is highly regulated and generally not legal to own. So while it is legal to own a tank, it is not legal to own a functional main gun or machine gun on said tank. Same with aircraft. So Michael Dorn can fly his _unarmed_ MiG around all he likes as long as he can pay to run it. There are several hundred WWII aircraft still flying around the world but I doubt you'd find many with the original weaponry intact.


    Machine guns are relatively easy to buy. Find a class 3 dealer and take a fat wallet with you. Lots of paperwork if I recall from some years ago but it may be less now.

    Ken


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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    The constitution doesn't give citizens rights. Those rights are inherent to all mankind. The constitution tells the government what it cannot do.

    "Shall not be infringed."

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    The constitution doesn't give citizens rights. Those rights are inherent to all mankind. The constitution tells the government what it cannot do.

    "Shall not be infringed."
    The gov’t already infringes on your “right” to bear automatic weapons. This isn’t 1791. Present day “arms” didn’t exist then.

    The 2nd is an anachronism and irrelevant in todays world.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    The constitution doesn't give citizens rights. Those rights are inherent to all mankind. The constitution tells the government what it cannot do.

    "Shall not be infringed."
    Rights are not inherent. Rights are what your society says they are, as expressed through legislation.

    If they are inherent, show me where they are written down by any one other than any government agencies.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Rights are not inherent. Rights are what your society says they are, as expressed through legislation.

    If they are inherent, show me where they are written down by any one other than any government agencies.
    If there were no government who would deprive you of your rights? Where does government get these rights you say they can give? Can you give an example of a right that is given by the government?
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    If there were no government who would deprive you of your rights? Where does government get these rights you say they can give? Can you give an example of a right that is given by the government?
    All of them that exist. Your rights were written by and ratified by your government.
    They are in your Constitution and its amendments. You should try reading it some day.
    If rights are not defined in a body of legislation then they do not exist as then there would be no way of guaranteeing your continuing enjoyment of them, not any way to apply a sanction against some one who infringes what you imagine your rights to be.
    My rights evolved through changing legislation since there was a society to define them. The Normans removed a lot of the rights that existed under the Saxon and Danish kings, but since Magna Carta we have been improving on them again.
    Government is required through representative democracy to put in place as "rights" what ever the society that they represent require of them.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    All of them that exist. Your rights were written by and ratified by your government.
    They are in your Constitution and its amendments. You should try reading it some day.
    If rights are not defined in a body of legislation then they do not exist as then there would be no way of guaranteeing your continuing enjoyment of them, not any way to apply a sanction against some one who infringes what you imagine your rights to be.
    My rights evolved through changing legislation since there was a society to define them. The Normans removed a lot of the rights that existed under the Saxon and Danish kings, but since Magna Carta we have been improving on them again.
    Government is required through representative democracy to put in place as "rights" what ever the society that they represent require of them.
    What a risible effort. I knew it would be.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What a risible effort. I knew it would be.
    risible?

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What a risible effort. I knew it would be.
    This was the question put. Can you answer it? So far you have avoided the question, which is OK as it was not addressed to you. But as you shoved your oar in, perhaps out of courtesy you should offer an answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Rights are not inherent. Rights are what your society says they are, as expressed through legislation.

    If they are inherent, show me where they are written down by any one other than any government agencies.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This was the question put. Can you answer it? So far you have avoided the question, which is OK as it was not addressed to you. But as you shoved your oar in, perhaps out of courtesy you should offer an answer.
    SeanM26 was right. When it comes to rights, the Constitution only defines those the government cannot deny, or infringe. That rights are inherent, inherent meaning innately characteristic, innate meaning existing naturally, inherent rights don’t need to be spelled out, a ridiculous thought in any case. Does the Constitution give me the right to eat a samwich?
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Lol, the dude with the biggest stick defines your rights. How naive of you to think otherwise. For instance, the patriot act still allows the government to define you as a terrorist and then poof!!! No more rights for you big guy, and I dare you to test that.
    Yep, and BrianW's posts are the risible ones, he hasn't gotten over the war of independence yet.
    And then there's the relict Royal Prerogative Powers held by the President, and continually extended by this one. Immunity from the law of the land, the power of pardon, and now a legislature of courtiers, medals awarded for personal partisan service and department administrators appointed by grace and favour with no actual powers as the President holds them all. No English monarch has held these powers for a few hundred years.
    Your Republic is leaking at the seams.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Freedom is what wild animals have, the ability to exist only if they can, find enough food,avoid mortal conflict, win if they do get attacked..nothing more.

    Humans try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to make conditions a bit better for all.

    Yet there are those who game the system for profit, and we need to keep adjusting. Now is such a time.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Lol, the dude with the biggest stick defines your rights. How naive of you to think otherwise.
    If that's what you think, you're not an American. Laugh about that.

    Imagine Trump declares himself King. You don't know what he means but it doesn't matter. It's not in the Consitution and is ipso facto illegal and morally wrong. Next, the people who command and staff the institutions that are supposed to curb such things say, no, we think it's a good idea. There is an attempted overthrow which fails. Now look at yourself in the mirror while you say these words:

    "Donald Trump is King by right. Might makes right, therefore, might can do no wrong."

    Politics is the means by which our moral sense is translated into law . . . A slow-motion revolution in how this is done, in progress since the 17th century, has made a clean break with the past. People are still fighting and dying in that revolution.

    -- John MacBeath Watkins, The Outlaw John Locke & Why Liberalism Is Worth Fighting For (2018)
    Fighting and dying for your rights, pal. For something worth fighting and dying for. Are they naive?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    For instance, the patriot act still allows the government to define you as a terrorist and then poof!!! No more rights for you big guy, and I dare you to test that.
    Rights do not disappear by being violated. O B V I O U S L Y
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Is freedom a right, if not written down?

    The right to pursue happiness? Is it a right if not granted by an inbred Lord?

    Just what do the fine citizens of the UK feel free to do, without written permission from the Crown?
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Is freedom a right, if not written down?
    First off define freedom. An old thread on the topic indicated that no one could.
    However, this suggests that something needs to be written down to establish it, whatever it is
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    Then you have a written Bill of Rights.
    So can you show me where rights are written down if not in the form of legislation enacted by a government.

    it is after midnight now so you have several hours to find some before I log in again.
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    Default Re: Question on the 2nd amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    The Declaration of Independence states that inalienable rights include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    Just so. Written down by a government (in potentia)
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