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Thread: Lifting big things over high freeboard

  1. #1
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    Default Lifting big things over high freeboard

    From Jim's now closed thread
    Aside from a hopefully entertaining story, the other lesson I took away from this is that I am relatively sure that if one of the kids or my wife went into the water near the boat I could retrieve them. But if the roles were reversed, they are not getting me up over the rail. They’re just not strong enough. It’s a sobering thought for anyone out cruising with their spouse or family. Sometimes self rescue needs to happen even when you’re not alone.

    -Jim
    There was a proposal several years ago on how to rescue an unresponsive body from the oggin. It used the technique of parbuckling.

    A yacht will have all of the kit as a part of its rig. The luff of a jib should be lashed along the rail outboard of the stantions. Shackle a halyard to the clew. The jib should be big enough to hang in a bight under the water. Then the tricky bit will be manoeuvring the casualty into the bight of the sail. When secure haul away on the halyard and Bob is your drookit uncle.


    If on a motorboat procure a tarpaulin of appropriate size. Ensure that the corner cringles are strong, and rope the tablings if necessary.
    If the boat has a davit for launching a dinghy use it to lift the outboard corners. If not make up a pair of handybillies that can be laid along the side decks for hauling the outboard corners, with the casualty aboard.





    .
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Took me a few reads through to figure it out. So basically it's a bit like an old maid picking something up with her apron, rolling object onto it, then lifting by the hem. I see the term is mostly used in righting ships, but the mechanical principle is...


    So in lieu of having a tarp or sail, one could maybe try lines, but that's not ideal on a floppy, possibly thrashy body. Maybe a pair of jeans would work in a pinch?

    Another option or addition to that might be rigging a gin pole with an oar, paddle or boathook, but you need some scope to operate, so possibly not suitable to use across gunwhale, if you are not operating on a very beamy boat, but over the stern may work.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Thinking about how to parbuckle one's self.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Thinking about how to parbuckle one's self.
    US Regs ( ABYC) require boatbuilders to provide a means of, "solo reboarding," a ladder deployable from inside the boat, steps affixed to the transom, etc

    Some examples of store-bought steps, fixed and folding.
    Screen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.39 AM.pngScreen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.46 AM.pngScreen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.57 AM.jpg

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    The Lifesling was developed for just this type of rescue. A not uncommon scenario was the husband going into the water, the wife having learned to handle the boat gets it alongside the victim, but is unable to get the husband out of the water and he drowns in front of her.
    These rescues were at least possible sometimes on a powerboat with a swimstep, but almost impossible on a sailboat.
    Several organizations and yacht clubs developed what is now marketed as the Lifesling, which was designed to be slipped around a helpless person, and then the lifting power was from a ring on the Lifesling to a haliard high allowed a winch to be used.
    I have rigged lift points on customers vessels and made up 4:1 Vang tackles to allow someone to get a husband out of the water, we always used the inflatable Sospenders with a ring. In our cold NW waters, even a fit person is going to have a real problem getting up a swim ladder to a swimstep after 5 to 10 minutes in the water, plus weight of clothing and then any adverse health issues that may be involved.
    There are articles and videos on the Lifesling, hopefully you will never need one, but...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Thinking about how to parbuckle one's self.
    See Kevin's post #4.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    US Regs ( ABYC) require boatbuilders to provide a means of, "solo reboarding," a ladder deployable from inside the boat, steps affixed to the transom, etc

    Some examples of store-bought steps, fixed and folding.
    Screen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.39 AM.pngScreen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.46 AM.pngScreen Shot 2019-08-07 at 11.45.57 AM.jpg

    Kevin
    Marvellous. If the casualty is not actually a casualty, as in injured or incapacitated.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Plyboy View Post
    Took me a few reads through to figure it out. So basically it's a bit like an old maid picking something up with her apron, rolling object onto it, then lifting by the hem. I see the term is mostly used in righting ships, but the mechanical principle is...


    So in lieu of having a tarp or sail, one could maybe try lines, but that's not ideal on a floppy, possibly thrashy body. Maybe a pair of jeans would work in a pinch?

    Another option or addition to that might be rigging a gin pole with an oar, paddle or boathook, but you need some scope to operate, so possibly not suitable to use across gunwhale, if you are not operating on a very beamy boat, but over the stern may work.
    The beauty of the sail or tarpaulin is that they form a bag, Once you have got the body into it it is most unlikely that they will topple out.

    @ Paul, WRT the Lifesling. Can it be put around an unconscious person, or does the casualty have to be concious and capable?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    I carry a Lifesling. Yes it can be put on an unconscious casualty and will hold him or her securely. It goes around the back and under the arms and is essentially self-tightening.

    The problem with the halyard bit is that the casualty is hauled against the hull hurting the casualty and adding greatly to the effort to lift. I put mounting points on the main boom and clip a 6:1 watch tackle to that. The boom needs to be peaked up to get enough hoist to get the casualty over the rail.

    It took us a dozen drills to get things to the point where my 110# partner could heave-to just to weather of me, rig the tackle, and haul up my 220#.

    On Goblin I'd made a 6'x6' cargo net with an ss pipe laced along one edge and some lines at the two corners. The opposite edge was stretched along the gunnel and secured at the corners and a few intermediate points. It lived rolled on the gunnel ready for easy deployment. When let loose the pipe kept that edge under water leaving a great boarding net.

    A casualty could be floated against the net, the lines to the lower corners flipped outside of the casualty, and parbuckle on. The lifeline stanchions were less than 6' apart but we had the aft end of the net end just about at one stanchion. Position the casualty head aft. Once up to gunnel level, pulling the head and upper body onto the deck left it easy to slide them back along the deck for the feet.

    I mean to make another net.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Marvellous. If the casualty is not actually a casualty, as in injured or incapacitated.
    Quite. Nothing's perfect. Just as the best parbuckle system is also useless if the injured victim is solo sailing.

    Kevin

    Edit: Having multiple options is the best course, IMO. One method does not preclude use or possession of another.
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    While dousing a head sail, my friend Peggy Slater went over the side of her "Valentine II" during her solo trip to Hawaii in 1968. This was during a heavy blow and she went over the side! Wrapped in the sail she was pinned to the hull, in the water for many hours until she could free the snap shakle and then herself. Peggy was just able to climb aboard with her last ounce of strength. The best lesson here was, NEVER SAIL ALONE IF YOU CAN'T SWIM ASHORE!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-07-2019 at 12:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The beauty of the sail or tarpaulin is that they form a bag,
    It's also somewhat the curse, as regards not lifting the same weight again in water, or bringing aboard more than you need to.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I carry a Lifesling. Yes it can be put on an unconscious casualty and will hold him or her securely. It goes around the back and under the arms and is essentially self-tightening.

    The problem with the halyard bit is that the casualty is hauled against the hull hurting the casualty and adding greatly to the effort to lift. I put mounting points on the main boom and clip a 6:1 watch tackle to that. The boom needs to be peaked up to get enough hoist to get the casualty over the rail.

    It took us a dozen drills to get things to the point where my 110# partner could heave-to just to weather of me, rig the tackle, and haul up my 220#.

    On Goblin I'd made a 6'x6' cargo net with an ss pipe laced along one edge and some lines at the two corners. The opposite edge was stretched along the gunnel and secured at the corners and a few intermediate points. It lived rolled on the gunnel ready for easy deployment. When let loose the pipe kept that edge under water leaving a great boarding net.

    A casualty could be floated against the net, the lines to the lower corners flipped outside of the casualty, and parbuckle on. The lifeline stanchions were less than 6' apart but we had the aft end of the net end just about at one stanchion. Position the casualty head aft. Once up to gunnel level, pulling the head and upper body onto the deck left it easy to slide them back along the deck for the feet.

    I mean to make another net.
    I have block and tackle for my boom as well. The line can be lead to a winch on either side of the boat for more power if needed. Pretty much anyone has the power to lift an adult out using the winches. However to get a unresponsive person in the water into a sling, hooked into the block and tackle requires someone to go into the water to accomplish the task. Sailing 2 up would require that the person still on board have the skills to: call in for help on ch16 with the proper location, turn the boat around and return to the man overboard, rig the block & tackle, attach a life line to yourself, (not necessarily in that order). Stop the boat, get in the water and capture the other person. Put the sling on the MOB, get back on the boat. Then haul the person up and into the boat.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Plyboy View Post
    It's also somewhat the curse, as regards not lifting the same weight again in water, or bringing aboard more than you need to.
    OK, not a watertight bag, a long cylinder with open ends.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default

    [QUOTE=Jay Greer;5954812. The best lesson here was, NEVER SAIL ALONE IF YOU CAN'T SWIM ASHORE!
    Jay[/QUOTE]
    Jay's last comment is not showing on my screen. Never sail alone if you can't swim ashore.....
    Seriously?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Phil Y; 08-07-2019 at 04:31 PM.

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    Default

    Rule number one. Don't fall overboard. Even if you've done lots of drills like Ian, you probably didn't do them in the dark when it's blowing 30 knots.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Seriously I you can't swim ashore or afford to get back on board from going over the side then don't sail alone unless well prepared. I lost a good friend who was a skilled sailor once! He had people to resucue him that should have known what to do. So, there is not always safety in numbers. I tell my son not to venture out alone without, at least, filing a sailing plan so that those who care, know where to look if he is overdue.

    Peggy Slater was a world class sailor and was considered as an America's cup skipper once. She dreamed of sailing to Hawaii solo just to get away from it all for a while. Even so, the series of events that led her to falling overboard might have been avoided if she had another skilled person aboard. Everything is always ok until it goes wrong! Then, some people usually wish they had made another choice!

    To quote my son Jaime, "Two stupids don't make a smart!" He is a humorist but, I feel very strong about this myself! I have have gone over the side twice at sea but fortunately had someone to help me get back aboard! If you are alone, that rail can be one hell of a long way up as well as hard to grab! Sail boats with the helm left unattended can have a maddening habit of sailing away just as you are ready to climb back aboard!

    In my humble opinion, having an emergency sling in the lazarett should be a must! And, just as important, a lifting tackle should be thought of prior to needing it as well.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-07-2019 at 05:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    I've never gone overboard, or had anyone go overboard. except in dinghy sailing. I've thought about it a lot. On the bigger boats, the parbuckling would have to be done with the storm jib, because most boats have roller furling jibs which would be difficult to use. I very much doubt that a lifesling would be any use getting someone out of the water, but it would be useful retrieving them water skier style. I've tried using the tether ring on a lifejacket both using myself as the dummy or with ohers, it has always been aborted because of severe pain, but I think that would be my last recourse.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    We go sailing because we love and enjoy it. Going over the side is something that none of us want's to think of. But even so, we carry first aid kits, or should, to patch up all manner of problems. So, should we carry proper gear and practice open ocean rescue if the day ever arrives that that knowledge and gear is needed. For winter sports, we have ski patrol to offer aid. For boats we have the coast guard but they are not able to offer the instant aid that is necessary, when instant aid is called for! I think of the years I spent as an ocean lifeguard and I know how fast disaster can strike! The trick is in being ready for it, even, if it never happens!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    The outboard , the bbq, the fishing gear, the solar panels, the windmill, the spare anchors, the jerry cans of fuel, the steering gear, the cockpit dodgers.... make room for a storm jib rigged up to drop into the sea.
    How about this Jay, "Never sail a boat you cannot go hand over hand up the head stay" . Safe...but ridiculous , no?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    A swin step with a drop down ladder makes a lot of sense on certain boats.
    (There may be more elegant ways of doing it, but yeah it makes good sense)


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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    ^ Swim step ? Ha! I see zodes on those things, not swimmers.
    Maybe a big sandbag, carried at the top of the mast, like Costner does in Waterworld.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 08-08-2019 at 08:29 PM. Reason: big not bug

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    The outboard , the bbq, the fishing gear, the solar panels, the windmill, the spare anchors, the jerry cans of fuel, the steering gear, the cockpit dodgers.... make room for a storm jib rigged up to drop into the sea.
    How about this Jay, "Never sail a boat you cannot go hand over hand up the head stay" . Safe...but ridiculous , no?
    I remember that Bob Sloan, the builder/owner of "Spike Africa" ,was doing a delivery off the coast of Spain and the roller jib jamed up during a double reef blow! Bob had to go up and down the head stay, cutting that sail away at night! He always swore he would never go to sea again with roller reefing!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Rule number one. Don't fall overboard. Even if you've done lots of drills like Ian, you probably didn't do them in the dark when it's blowing 30 knots.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Under those circumstances going on deck would require a harness and tether setup so going over the side is impossible, or at least improbable.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    https://www.jasonscradle.co.uk/

    rather expensive, but you see the principle...

    also some readings :

    http://www.ics-shipping.org/docs/def...1.pdf?sfvrsn=6

    be safe

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I remember that Bob Sloan, the builder/owner of "Spike Africa" ,was doing a delivery off the coast of Spain and the roller jib jamed up during a double reef blow! Bob had to go up and down the head stay, cutting that sail away at night! He always swore he would never go to sea again with roller reefing!
    Jay
    Respect to Bob Sloan, and to you Jay.
    Yacht delivery is a dangerous business. Or , at least it was.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    All techniques that have to be tried and practiced to be of any use, of course. The first time I went to crank someone up the mast with the halyard winch I assumed it would be easy work. Well, it wasn't, the human weighing far more than the 350 or so sq. ft. sail the winch was mounted for. I had a life sling on my previous boat. It not only makes hauling someone back on board easier, it's also designed to be dragged behind the boat in as the victim is circled to make it easy for them to catch the line and then the sling. It's a well-thought out system. That particular boat was a trimaran, with very low-to-the-water decks and nets. Even so, I had a rigid boarding ladder that could be quickly deployed.
    -Dave

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    These units are really slick. It's a boarding ladder that slides into a tube mounted inside the transom. A swimmer can slide it out, let it drop down, and then flip open the steps. When not in use, nothing shows. Obviously, you need space inside the boat to fit the unit.

    -Dave

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Ankou View Post
    https://www.jasonscradle.co.uk/

    rather expensive, but you see the principle...

    also some readings :

    http://www.ics-shipping.org/docs/def...1.pdf?sfvrsn=6

    be safe
    Pretty well what I was describing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Some considerable time ago Bob Smalser posted a thread about his setup for retrieving his Newfoundland dogs that had a habit of jumping overboard. We also had Newf's. and I did have a hard copy. Don't know about now though.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Slight threadjack, just was thinking about self reboarding over high freeboard... I was thinking about having a fender strung horizontal in a sling about 6" above waterline, on strong lines, and you pull yourself up to sit on it like it was a playground swing, facing the boat, then you're up out of the water and can take a breather/gather strength. Then, you should find it easy to get your foot on a rope ladder, stirrup or loop that's against the side of the boat above the chine (As opposed to the difficulty of getting a foot in one swinging under the boat when you're still down in the water) and go up and over the gunwale.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    I gotta say thank you to Nick for kicking this one off. "Man overboar" is a subject that we all need to be more aware of!

    Well done bunch!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Pretty well what I was describing.
    Exactly or almost yes

    I remember this ladder was about 1k€ 2 years ago... !!!!

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I gotta say thank you to Nick for kicking this one off. "Man overboar" is a subject that we all need to be more aware of!

    Well done bunch!
    Jay
    Credit also should go to Jim for his openness.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Lifting big things over high freeboard

    Thanks Nick, the whole thing is a bit embarrassing and I was worried that the topic would overwhelm my thread so I appreciate you starting this one. It is an interesting topic and is worth exploring.
    -Jim

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    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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