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Thread: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

  1. #1
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    Default Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    A Fan of Metre Boats for the past 50 years. Particularly the Square Metre Classes.

    Few and Far Between here in New Zealand apart from a few classics somewhat based on Knud Reimers Designs.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    what do you mean by wholesome? Language barrier here.
    "Don't tell me that I can't. Tell me how I can!"
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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    8 metre CR.Sensible hull shapes and decent accommodation. More space below than the square metre classes and drier when sailing.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Ok, now I understand. More like a cruising sailboat meant for living on.
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    Ike
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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    I find we have a 30 sq m here in New Zealand. :Reimers" - ex "Caprice. Possibly formerly owned and raced by Chris Bouzaid.

    Will try to track her down.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Does CR stand for Cruiser Racer ??? Not familiar with the CR designation.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???


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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Another vote for the Cruiser Racer Rule. A great shame that it never really “took off”.

    There are I think twenty six 8CRs and five 7CRs.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Dangerous ground, here. But here goes... from memory, so take the date for what they are, close but maybe not precise.

    The original sq.meter rule (from 1910?) was a construction rule. It basically was built on a given sail area (measured as mainsail + jib area between forstay and mast), a standardized length for waterline (measured at rest), freeboard and bredth. There was a provision for housing the crew (bunks and an interior space defined by being able to raise up an imagined rectangular frame inside the cabin... called the suitcase rule). The rule was so defined as to encourage design modifications - boats could be built with trade-offs/penalties. More waterline for less bredth, and so on. I cannot recall if there was a weight specification at all.

    This resulted in ever increasing lengths and increasingly narrow boats and extreme bow and aft overhangs. Because the waterline was measured at rest, a long, narrow boat with huge overhangs gets massive increases in waterline length as it heels... for example, while sailing. Hull speed is a function of waterline length... and hey presto! Huge speed wins for ever-increasing hull lengths loa.
    Because there was no rule for scantlings, the boats were built extremely light. There is a story about a famous sq.meter built for the king of Vietnam that was something on order of 62ft loa and extremely fast... but built so lightly that it 'squirmed like a serpent' in waves.

    The rule was revised around 1925 because a group of international designers got together as they grew alarmed at the extreme lengths the boats were growing to, and a number of provisions were added to, and the word was actually used, 'make the sq.meters class more wholesome'. It was that international rule that went to the Olympics with the 30sq.m. class in 1932? 36? (I think the first, but possibly the second).

    But the 'wholesome' sq.meters were still very lightly built compared to the meter boats. A 30sq.m. was about the same size as the 6 meter that it was replaced with after one Olympic season... but the 6 meter was 2-3 tons more solid than the sq.meter. I think many designers thought the sq.meters wouldn't hold up over time and the meter boats would, so they chose to design boats that would last.

    The Swedes, OTOH, were unhappy with the limitations the revised rule put on the greyhound of the sea, the original sq.meters, and switched back to building sq.meters the way they wanted. With the international community moving on to meter boats, the sq.meter regattas were once again for the most part Swedish interest and Swedish controlled. And the boats, after a few years of 'wholesome' restrictions, once again began to grow in length.

    Which is why a 22 sq.meter and a 30sq.meter can be of equal length, and anything from around 24ft (for the very oldest) to 45ft.
    Sail area, officially 22sq.meters, 30sq.m. or of the larger variety (there is also a 15 and in Norway a 12.5sq.m.) because of the way it is measured can be huge.... downwind a 30sq.m. can fly 120sq.m. and still be measured within the rule as a 30sq.m.

    I have one of the few remaining 'wholesome' 22sq.m. Designed and built by Johan Anker. He was one of the designers that pushed for revising the rule. He only made a limited number of 22s and 30s before he moved on the rule he loved, the meter boats. He is quoted as saying he didn't like the sq.meters and that they would break apart in a short time because of their underdimensioned scantlings.
    Mine is 93 years old this year. It takes some work every year to keep her on the water, but I'm hoping to celebrate 100 years before I pass her on.

    Hope this doesn't step on any toes. For the record, I'm a great admirer of the Swedish sq.meters with their enormous lengths and extreme speeds. 'Discussions' about rules and rule changes are just an interesting part of yachting history.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Wow !!! Love the David Boyd Design/

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    You forgot to mention Nathaniel Herreshoff's Universal Rule that was drawn up in 1902 and accepted by the New York Yacht club in 1903. The Universal Rule also determined a yacht's eligibility to race in the Americas Cup from 1914 to 1937. This rule was responsible for the development of the J class boats.
    Jay




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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    You forgot to mention Nathaniel Herreshoff's Universal Rule that was drawn up in 1902 and accepted by the New York Yacht club in 1903. The Universal Rule also determined a yacht's eligibility to race in the Americas Cup from 1914 to 1937. This rule was responsible for the development of the J class boats.
    Jay



    Also the New York 32. Won lots of races, with a stateroom with a chest of drawers and a mirror aft for the ladies.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    I had the pleasure of sailing a NY32 a few years ago. Like all Herreshoff boats, it did not make a big fuss out of being fast, it just quietly settled down on her sweet spot and went like hell! It belongs to West Coast wooden boat magician Wayne Ettel
    Jay

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    I once saw the Universal Rule Q boat, Teygeta, built in 1930. I have been lusting after it ever since.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???


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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    David Boyd’s 12 metre “Sceptre” is owned by a syndicate who keep her at the Berthon marina in Lymington.

    I think there were three versions of the International Rule, but I don’t know enough to tell t’other from which.
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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I had the pleasure of sailing a NY32 a few years ago. Like all Herreshoff boats, it did not make a big fuss out of being fast, it just quietly settled down on her sweet spot and went like hell! It belongs to West Coast wooden boat magician Wayne Ettel
    Jay
    Does sail well, but it's designer was Olin Stephens.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Yachts benefit from racing rules ?

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Yachts benefit from racing rules ?
    Much of the time, designing a yacht to a racing rule results in some irrational quirk in the design that improves the rating, but has drawbacks. The pinched transoms of the IOR rule; extreme overhangs of the square-meter rule, are two examples. The universal rule emphasized the waterline length, which often meant excessive overhangs that had issues in a seaway. Dorade was the design that demonstrated a "rule-beater" could be seaworthy offshore, and cleaned up in long-distance racing. The CCA rule did result in many wholesome designs, and many modern hulls are both seaworthy and fast--but usually not designed as rule-beaters.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I think there were three versions of the International Rule, but I don’t know enough to tell t’other from which.
    Yes... without going into a dissertation, primary difference between the first rule (1906) and the modern is the denominator in the formula. Originally, it was 2, now it is 2.37. Of course your answer could be 2.4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 or 15, but nobody makes 4s, 7s, 10s or 15s anymore!

    I'm not sure what is meant by "wholesome" in this sense. There's the International Rule, Square Metre Rule, and of course the rule whose answer is 5.5. They are all different, but for "wholesomeness", I'm not sure. Certainly, a 12mR is better able to cross an ocean than a 5.5 (c.f. AMERICAN EAGLE), but that could be a function of size.

    One thing about both the International Rule and the Universal Rule is that, while meant to efficiently handicap boats for racing, they did end up with yachts that could also cruise. They become less competitive as cruisers, mostly because when you start adding cruising gear, you start adding weight. Still, to this day, the 8mR rule (for example) requires two berths and has a minimum size for the cabin top.

    "Encouraging overhangs", I think needs to be examined. The Universal Rule was intended to correct the deficiencies of the Seewanakah Rule, and so measured waterline at the quarter beam buttock. The International Rule measures the waterline at a point above the true waterline. This is why the modern boats have knuckle bows. Also, the stern is a bit "chopped", to bring weight in from the ends (c.f. WEATHERLY).

    I don't think anyone could fix the errors of the IOR. Even Sparkman and Stephens couldn't do that. Just look at the Swans made in the late 70s.

    There are advantages of moderate overhangs (see later CCA boats). These advantages are obviated when we charge for slips based on LOA. Adding all the latest "cruising amenities" adds beam, vertical but full bows, high freeboard, higher cabin tops, chopped transoms, and the exposed chines you see on Beneteaus. At least they don't end up looking like an athletic shoe. Save that nonsense for power boats.

    I need to do more research on the 7CR and 8CR. I had thought they were simply International Rule boats, with more requirements for cruising items, but I don't think that's quite right.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    We need the 1951-2 “Yachting World” Annual, which contains a long article introducing the International Cruiser Racer Rule. I’ve just tracked down a copy and it should be in my hands in a few days.
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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Interesting reading!

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Might add that we have been cruising for three decades on a purpose-built one-design (NY 32) that also inhabits one of the universal rule classes. We have raced on occasion agains a Q-class, which approximates an 8-meter class. The Q-class is a tad more close-winded, and demonstrates an small advantage in hull speed. It is quite narrow, maybe 18 ins. narrower on a 48-ft. hull. (Might add that the meter classes are quite similar to the universal rule classes, albeit in metrics. ) The disadvantages of the narrow hull are considerable in terms of accommodations, and the Q-class is considerably wetter in most conditions. The NY32 generally outperforms it in heavy weather to windward, and is pretty close reaching and running. The design that truly embraced this question was Finnisterre, another Sparkman-Stephens effort, that originally was built as a live aboard cruiser for a magazine writer. The centerboard, beamy shape and low wetted surface proved quite fast, dominating the long-distance races at the time, and inspired many other similar cruising/racing yachts.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Much of the time, designing a yacht to a racing rule results in some irrational quirk in the design that improves the rating, but has drawbacks. The pinched transoms of the IOR rule; extreme overhangs of the square-meter rule, are two examples. The universal rule emphasized the waterline length, which often meant excessive overhangs that had issues in a seaway. Dorade was the design that demonstrated a "rule-beater" could be seaworthy offshore, and cleaned up in long-distance racing. The CCA rule did result in many wholesome designs, and many modern hulls are both seaworthy and fast--but usually not designed as rule-beaters.
    I remain un convinced.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I remain un convinced.
    About what?

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    That yacht racing rules helped produce wholesome yachts.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    That yacht racing rules helped produce wholesome yachts.
    Did anyone suggest that they did?

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    I enjoyed sailing on KATE

    an Alfred Milne designed America's Cup First Rule gaff rigged 12 meter yacht





    I live and drink rum where other people vacation.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    "Racing rules" are developed as a way of restricting developments intended to make a boat or whatever go faster--they are not intended to promote development. The venue is much more significant. Whether you are racing in a long canal, or around the world tends to require a different design. It is possible to make a purpose-built racing design more or less a reasonable passage-maker, in terms of accommodations and seaworthiness, but that's going to be incidental to the quest for speed with the restrictions of rules.

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    Default Re: Which Metre Rule Produced the Most Wholesome Yachts ???

    Althouh I can understand how a designer might harbour such feelings while struggling to make a definitive competitive innovation, the idea behind all the racing rules is a recognized need to do two things - even the playing field, create a standard for sound and solid boat design.

    This site says it well....
    So it was that Herreshoff wrote the Universal Rule of Measurement. This rule had a new, second purpose. Not only was the rule to provide an approximation of speed so that different shaped boats could race together with time allowance somewhat closely approximating their speed differences, but this rule was going to do something else: by means of its very rating formula and also a series of limits and penalties, it was going to force boats into a general, safer, saner shape and type.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20120308...dex.php?page=3

    The point being that the designer can concentrate on making a fast boat, but within specifications that create solid, seaworthy boats. The rule itself sets the designer free from worry that other designers might win races by offering longevity or seaworthiness beyond what is defined as safe/wholesome. They can focus on speed because the rule has designed sane&solid into the design beforem the first line of the new design is drafted.
    Last edited by lagspiller; 08-15-2019 at 03:44 AM.

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