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Thread: It Ainít Video Games!

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    Default It Ainít Video Games!

    Video games have long been blamed for gun violence in the U.S. ó from Columbine to Saturday's mass shooting in El Paso. Scientific studies have shown no connection, so why is the claim still made?

    AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

    When President Trump spoke today about the shootings in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, he said this.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We must stop the glorification of violence in our society. This includes the gruesome and grisly video games that are now commonplace.

    CORNISH: Trump is not the only politician to bring up the supposed connection between video games and mass shootings, but researchers have never proven that one leads to the other. NPR's Andrew Limbong has more on how this myth has been perpetuated.

    ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: There is no evidence so far that either shooter this weekend was a fan of video games, violent or otherwise, but that didn't stop Republican House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy from saying this on Fox News yesterday.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    KEVIN MCCARTHY: The idea of these video games to dehumanize individuals, to have a game of shooting individuals and others - I've always felt that it's a problem for future generations.

    LIMBONG: A few hours earlier on the same channel, Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick referenced the El Paso shooter's alleged manifesto, glossing over the paragraphs about immigration, Hispanics, interracial relationships, and instead taking a small reference to the game "Call Of Duty" out of context.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    DAN PATRICK: This manifesto - he talks about living out his super soldier fantasy on "Call Of Duty."

    LIMBONG: In fact, what the alleged murderer wrote was that he was doing just the opposite - hitting a soft target. Andrew Przybylski is an experimental psychologist and director of research at the Oxford Internet Institute in England. Last February, he released a study looking at the links between video games and aggressive behavior among teens.

    ANDREW PRZYBYLSKI: Mainly, we found a whole bunch of nothing, so we found pretty convincing evidence that it didn't really matter what kinds of games teenagers played. Boys and girls, violent games, nonviolent games - that wasn't really a useful piece of information about whether or not a parent saw aggressive behaviors in their young person.

    LIMBONG: The question itself - do video games cause violent acts? - has been asked for as long as video games have been around, but it grew in popularity right after the Columbine shooting.

    PATRICK MARKEY: Because the shooters played "Doom," they became this link.

    LIMBONG: Patrick Markey is a research psychologist at Villanova University and author of the book "Moral Combat: Why The War On Violent Video Games Is Wrong."

    MARKEY: We actually see in the research world this explosion of studies examining violent video games and acts of aggression.

    LIMBONG: What these studies found is a slight increase in annoying behavior immediately after playing a violent video game but no actual violence. Markey says it's also historically a bipartisan distraction used by politicians who know video gamers aren't necessarily as vocal a voting block as, say, gun owners.

    MARKEY: If you're going to go after kind of a boogeyman, it makes sense to go after a boogeyman that doesn't have a lot of political power behind it. So if you're a politician and you want to look like you're doing something, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, it's easier to go against video games because, again, they don't have that political backing like things like the NRA that might be much more difficult to take on.

    LIMBONG: Markey also says there's research out there that suggests the race of the suspect plays a part, too.

    MARKEY: When a minority commits crimes, some people assume, oh, it's because they're a minority. That must be why they did it. But when a nice white kid from the suburbs commit these crimes, they look for these causes. And they say, oh, it must be video games. It can't be because they were this good child. There's something that must be evil that infected them.

    LIMBONG: Whatever that something evil was, the science is firm that it wasn't video games. But researchers say in asking the same question over and over again, we're stopping ourselves from learning much else about video games and the 21st century of play.

    Andrew Limbong, NPR News.
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    Default Re: It Ainít Video Games!

    To do something good
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    They are to blame in the same way as any item that steers culture. They aren't a cause, but they can act as a trigger. It amazes me that so many can be so blind to this at the same time that they are aware that advertising works by creating desire and changing the perception of normal.

    I watched a police interrogation recently, and the main technique was to create empathy between the interviewed and the interviewers. This is done through discussions about how their own lives and actions are similar to the accused. They beat their wives occasionally too, so it's ok, everyone is human. It's normal.

    Of course, it's not normal, and they are lying to the accused. But by making them feel that their actions and desires are shared by others, they become comfortable and open to talking about it.

    Now insert people into a violent virtual world, especially the online games, where they can interact with lots of people that think and act the way they do.

    All it it takes is a few people to not quite get the distinction between real and fantasy.

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    Default Re: It Ainít Video Games!

    Trump is another trigger with his inflamitory speeches.

    Not a cause, but a trigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    They are to blame in the same way as any item that steers culture. They aren't a cause, but they can act as a trigger.
    That's not true, there have been heaps of studies done on this and one of the consistent findings is that violent games can desensitise you to violent images but don't desensitise you to moral questions. In the same way that Ambulance drivers are desensitised to bloody scenes, but remain good people. Computer games do not trigger or cause violence.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    That's not true, there have been heaps of studies done on this and one of the consistent findings is that violent games can desensitise you to violent images but don't desensitise you to moral questions. In the same way that Ambulance drivers are desensitised to bloody scenes, but remain good people. Computer games do not trigger or cause violence.
    For Most.

    Laws are in place not to control the actions of the 90%, but of the 10% that need laws to live socially. 90% of people, if murder were not illegal, would still not murder. It's not a question of desensitizing people to moral questions. It a question of triggering those without those moral controls in place.

    Take one of that 10% and create an artificial or sub-society, and the way they act may be more anti-social. Soccer hooligans don't operate anti-socially to a great degree as individuals, but put them within a group of like minded people and they are triggered or enabled.
    Take a 16 year old boy with limited socially normal morals, put him in a basement with no social contact other than other, like minded people and the same can happen.

    If you have studies that research the effect of violent games and images on those of low morals, I'd be happy to read them. Studies on otherwise healthy people are not applicable.

    Do you not find it of interest that all mass killers have files full of information on others that preceded them? And discuss those actions and those they wish to perpetrate with (generally) online groups? They have found their tribe, and by submerging themselves into that "culture", it becomes normal and rational to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    They are to blame in the same way as any item that steers culture. They aren't a cause, but they can act as a trigger. It amazes me that so many can be so blind to this at the same time that they are aware that advertising works by creating desire and changing the perception of normal.

    I watched a police interrogation recently, and the main technique was to create empathy between the interviewed and the interviewers. This is done through discussions about how their own lives and actions are similar to the accused. They beat their wives occasionally too, so it's ok, everyone is human. It's normal.

    Of course, it's not normal, and they are lying to the accused. But by making them feel that their actions and desires are shared by others, they become comfortable and open to talking about it.

    Now insert people into a violent virtual world, especially the online games, where they can interact with lots of people that think and act the way they do.

    All it it takes is a few people to not quite get the distinction between real and fantasy.
    But it’s not happening in any other country, only the US. Are you saying Americans can’t tell the difference between a video game and reality?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    For Most.

    Laws are in place not to control the actions of the 90%, but of the 10% that need laws to live socially. 90% of people, if murder were not illegal, would still not murder. It's not a question of desensitizing people to moral questions. It a question of triggering those without those moral controls in place.

    Take one of that 10% and create an artificial or sub-society, and the way they act may be more anti-social. Soccer hooligans don't operate anti-socially to a great degree as individuals, but put them within a group of like minded people and they are triggered or enabled.
    Take a 16 year old boy with limited socially normal morals, put him in a basement with no social contact other than other, like minded people and the same can happen.

    If you have studies that research the effect of violent games and images on those of low morals, I'd be happy to read them. Studies on otherwise healthy people are not applicable.

    Do you not find it of interest that all mass killers have files full of information on others that preceded them? And discuss those actions and those they wish to perpetrate with (generally) online groups? They have found their tribe, and by submerging themselves into that "culture", it becomes normal and rational to them.

    A. Citation Required ...and I mean, like... everywhere

    B. “all mass killers?” Good luck supporting that one. Or, who knows... maybe you’ll learn something while doing your homework. This place did that for me.
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    Meh ... Thirty-odd years ago RPGs were being painted with the same brush. And they made you Satanic.

    Andy
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    One of the most widely cited studies into computer games and violence was done by the US government in US prisons. No relationship was found. Video games do nothing. Not 10% of the time, not ever.


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    Show me your PH.D, otherwise, you're just making crap up.

    Hundreds of studies have been done, dozens of meta-analysis' of those hundreds of studies have been done, and guess what? THERE IS NO DISCERNIBLE LINK!

    JHC. . .
    Remember when Wile E Coyote made kids violent? Man, that was a messed up time!
    Last edited by Old Dryfoot; 08-14-2019 at 08:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    But it’s not happening in any other country, only the US. Are you saying Americans can’t tell the difference between a video game and reality?
    It does happen elsewhere, just not as often. The more damaged the culture, the more likelyhood that a trigger will be effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
    A. Citation Required ...and I mean, like... everywhere

    B. “all mass killers?” Good luck supporting that one. Or, who knows... maybe you’ll learn something while doing your homework. This place did that for me.
    Show me a single mass killer that does not reference past mass killers. Other than perhaps the Las Vegas killer, who seems to have left no record of any kind that has been discovered yet.
    I am not talking about the standard serial killer type mass killer, but the ones who plan a single mass event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    One of the most widely cited studies into computer games and violence was done by the US government in US prisons. No relationship was found. Video games do nothing. Not 10% of the time, not ever.


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    Then either paraphrase the study or show me where to find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    Show me your PH.D, otherwise, you're just making crap up.

    Hundreds of studies have been done, dozens of meta-analysis' of those hundreds of studies have been done, and guess what? THERE IS NO DECERBABLE LINK!

    JHC. . .
    Remember when Wile E Coyote made kids violent? Man, that was a messed up time!
    Argue against my argument, not against my education. An argument stands or doesn't. Telling me there are lots of studies that refute my thoughts isn't an argument. There are many studies which show how the brain is driven by simple chemistry, and how that chemistry is changed by exposure to stimulus. There. Now I've argued against your study by arguing that there are other studies. Neither is an argument.

    Explain to me how positive or negative reinforcement behavioural modification works in brain chemistry.
    Explain how the mob violence dynamic happens.
    Explain how militaries desensitize soldiers.

    Mr. Coyote was not a first person shooter. The more realistic the game characters, the less the brain can tell the difference.

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    My sons play violent video games, and have each become celebrated serial killers based on their on-screen personas. But there are always statistical outliers in every population, eh?
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    While some are flogging the video game scapegoat consider what the one common factor among mass shootings might be.
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    While at it, expain the brain chemistry of, say, problem gamblers. Why are some, when exposed to that stimulii, unable to control the desire to return again and again while others do not. Some of those problem gamblers will lose jobs, steal from families etc etc to drive the addiction. They functioned fine in society with acceptable morals until exposed to a trigger. Some are predisposed. Fine until a particular trigger is encountered.

    Dispute that. If you don't think it's disputable, explain how a trigger works for a problem gambler and not for people with violent tendencies. If you think that a trigger, such as exposure to personal violence, can work for people with violent tendencies, but not if its a video game, then explain the differences in brain chemistry between an actual violent event and a simulated event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Mr. Coyote was not a first person shooter. The more realistic the game characters, the less the brain can tell the difference.
    So you don't recall all of the outrage about Mr. Coyote? Funny, there was a lot of it. Scourge of the airwaves he was. Damned an entire generation to moral turpitude and violent behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    While at it, expain the brain chemistry of, say, problem gamblers. Why are some, when exposed to that stimulii, unable to control the desire to return again and again while others do not. Some of those problem gamblers will lose jobs, steal from families etc etc to drive the addiction. They functioned fine in society with acceptable morals until exposed to a trigger. Some are predisposed. Fine until a particular trigger is encountered.

    Dispute that. If you don't think it's disputable, explain how a trigger works for a problem gambler and not for people with violent tendencies. If you think that a trigger, such as exposure to personal violence, can work for people with violent tendencies, but not if its a video game, then explain the differences in brain chemistry between an actual violent event and a simulated event.
    Now your conflating the issue with addictions?

    Get real. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    .. consider what the one common factor among mass shootings might be.
    Among others, perhaps that the shooters were fairly young males, feeling personally disenfranchised and excluded from society's main chance? A disproportionate % also have broken or otherwise seriously dysfunctional families of origin, with crappy or non-existent "daddy" influences, though I dunno about these more recent examples. That is, the profile that very frequently undergirds various extremisms and violent movements across history - whether "lone wolf" or mass movement style. (Oh, and guns are a kinda critical common factor in shootings too, of course.)
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    ^ Spot on.
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    Default Re: It Ainít Video Games!

    Have any of you lubbers played "Grand Theft Auto?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Have any of you lubbers played "Grand Theft Auto?"
    The original birdseye version?

    Peace,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Have any of you lubbers played "Grand Theft Auto?"
    PC, PS, or XB?
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    You know what video game WILL drive people to murder?

    Mario Kart.

    Peace,
    Really? Four Red Turtle Shells In A ROW?!

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    Default Re: It Ainít Video Games!

    Can't they take the bus?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: It Ainít Video Games!

    Decourcy - Quit Digging! Can't even see the top of yer head!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Decourcy - Quit Digging! Can't even see the top of yer head!
    Still waiting for some facts. Ante up.


    I commonly have discussions with several people well above my pay grade in mental computing ability. They often straighten out my misconceptions on a wide variety of subjects. I'm perfectly willing to be straightened out, but the "I'm much smarter than you so you should just accept what I say" method won't fly.
    If I'm wrong, answer my questions.

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    Nah, old son; you've been spoon-fed all the 'facts' you need, and yet here you are, still denying the evidence and promoting your 'feelings' on the topic.

    You can inform the uneducated; can't help the willfully ignorant.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    I played a lot of Lounge Lizard Larry. Changed my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Nah, old son; you've been spoon-fed all the 'facts' you need, and yet here you are, still denying the evidence and promoting your 'feelings' on the topic.

    You can inform the uneducated; can't help the willfully ignorant.
    So, nothing? No links, no explanation of brain chemistry and how I misunderstand it in relation to all the points I made?
    No discussion about how your military decided that they needed to desensitize soldiers after the Vietnam war demonstrated an "unacceptablely low" shot to kill ratio and what methods were employed for that desensitization?

    Heres you chance to demonstrate your superior abilities. I'm all ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Can't they take the bus?
    I wonít lie, it is tremendous fun, if mostly because at any time some damned thing or other can upset your kart. Itís a very bright and happy feeling game, except the point is to sabotage and crash competitors and secure the win.

    Any and every age and skill level can play with some modicum of success because of all the turtle shells and fireballs and banana peels and bombs and...
    Unless Daughter is playing. Then itís a race for second place. Her hand eye coordination is off the chain, which probably has nothing to do with her ability to be one of her finest softball catchers and batters her age.

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    P.S. Quadzilla famously entered a batting cage with us a while ago, and stepped into the 80mph baseball cage, to ďhit a fewĒ. Mind, Quad is a LARGE guy, and not an athlete, and the owner was dubious about letting him bat. We had to sign a waiver. I mean, 80mph baseballs HURT if they hit you.
    Anyway, Quad just went to town. He hit every ball but two or three squarely and sharply into the top corner of the net. Some of the hits would have gone out of any danged baseball stadium.

    When he was done, Quad walked out and handed up the bat and helmet to the owner of the facility, who asked where Quad played baseball.
    Quad looked him square in the eye and said, ďOh, I hate baseball. I play video games.Ē
    I wish I had a picture of that dudeís face. I have never before or since seen an actual jaw drop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    I played a lot of Lounge Lizard Larry. Changed my life.
    Leisure Suit Larry? I only ask as some cats I know made that game.

    Peace,
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