Losing friends in divisive times.

[Reynard38]

May have lost 2 tonight. One I’ve known since high school, another for over a decade. I can no longer abide the gun worshippers that cannot, or will not admit this nation has a serious problem.
The Dayton shooter was armed with an assault weapon with 2 100 round rotary magazines. He fired 41 rounds in 30 seconds.
This should not be possible. Period.
A very small percentage of the population, and indeed a small minority of gun owners own such a weapon. Their rights to own such a weapon DO NOT obviate the rest of us having the right to not be gunned down by it.
Anyway in my attempt to drive this point home I most likely ended 2 friendships. Over the ability to own a gun that isn’t good for hunting or target shooting, but rather is designed for the sole purpose of killing as many humans as possible as fast as possible.
This latest tragedy took a somewhat personal note when I realized that I’ve been to that bar in Dayton, as have some of my coworkers. Had I been on a layover there I could have easily been a victim as could many people i work with. Selfish I admit, but it does serve to get ones attention.

I think in the next couple of years we may have to make some hard choices. Ending friendships hopefully will be the most trying.

[Garret]

Sorry to hear this - but I get it. I may well be losing a few myself. I've long been quietly against large magazines, but I'm afraid the time for quietly working against them is over.

[SeanM26]

Pandora's box has already been opened. These guns are here. They are not going anywhere, no mattrr what rules or laws are passed.

If you think alienation of friends is the only way for you, then I hope it works. But it will not stop what is happening.

[Garret]

The alienation of friends is a result, not a cause. All due to the division in today's US.

[Decourcy]

Copied from another thread, from your post:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. That is 3 times as many guns as the armed forces of the Russian Federation (30.3 million), China (27.5 million), North Korea (8.4 million), Ukraine (6.6 million), United States (4.5 million), India (3.9 million), Vietnam (3.8 million), Iran (3.3 million), South Korea (2.7 million), Pakistan (2.3 million), and all the other countries (39.7 million) combined.[6] American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined."[7]


"American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[8] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018, alone.[8] That is more than twice as many guns, as possessed by every law enforcement agency in the United States put together.[8] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[8] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[8] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces

Just bears repeating. These numbers are mind boggling. I have no idea how any law would control the existing guns at this point.

[Reynard38]

Pandora's box has already been opened. These guns are here. They are not going anywhere, no mattrr what rules or laws are passed.

If you think alienation of friends is the only way for you, then I hope it works. But it will not stop what is happening.

Its not about the alienation. It’s about speaking my mind when I feel its necessary. If that makes someone uncomfortable to the point of ending a friendship then so be it.

And I don’t believe that Pandora’s box cannot be nailed shut. I would take political courage, which is in VERY short supply lately, but it’s doable.

[Reynard38]

Copied from another thread, from your post:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. That is 3 times as many guns as the armed forces of the Russian Federation (30.3 million), China (27.5 million), North Korea (8.4 million), Ukraine (6.6 million), United States (4.5 million), India (3.9 million), Vietnam (3.8 million), Iran (3.3 million), South Korea (2.7 million), Pakistan (2.3 million), and all the other countries (39.7 million) combined.[6] American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined."[7]


"American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[8] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018, alone.[8] That is more than twice as many guns, as possessed by every law enforcement agency in the United States put together.[8] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[8] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[8] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces

Just bears repeating. These numbers are mind boggling. I have no idea how any law would control the existing guns at this point.

Interstate highway system, Panama Canal, Moon Landing. We used to tackle big problems in this country. Why not now?

A lot of guns owned by not a lot of people. Whittle it down to just the guns that need to be taken out of circulation and the number of people gets even smaller.
A big job, but doable.

[gypsie]

If people are defensive there is fear somewhere.

It appears to me, outside, that there is very little constructive debate on certain emblematic subjects in the USA. Whether its gun control or healthcare, even talking about it seems to represent an existential threat to some people. The resistance to considered debate seems to represent a threat to others.
And around and around.

[Jimmy W]

Pandora's box has already been opened. These guns are here. They are not going anywhere, no mattrr what rules or laws are passed.

If you think alienation of friends is the only way for you, then I hope it works. But it will not stop what is happening.

The idiot in Dayton bought his rifle online. He had it shipped to and picked it up from a FFL dealer. If that had been illegal, he would not have been able to do it that way. Making the rifles and magazines illegal might not get rid of them instantly, but would keep them from being advertised and legally acquired by any nut that decides to murder a bunch of folks.

[Gerarddm]

...and don't forget body armor. Why it is legal for a civilian to own it is beyond me.

[Decourcy]

Interstate highway system, Panama Canal, Moon Landing. We used to tackle big problems in this country. Why not now?

A lot of guns owned by not a lot of people. Whittle it down to just the guns that need to be taken out of circulation and the number of people gets even smaller.
A big job, but doable.

Heres a few issues as I see it:
- not many of those are registered. How do you get non registered out of circulation? Compliance rate in Canada for long gun registry was 20%. I have heard much the same for Auz, and expect NZ will achieve much the same. Even if the US achieves 50%, the number remaining is staggering. And then the remaining are all underground.
- how will the militias react? Yes, I do think that may be a real concern, fat and slow as they are. Particularly if they think that "now is the time".
- Who arrives at a criteria for what is acceptable?

[mdh]

The idiot in Dayton bought his rifle online. He had it shipped to and picked it up from a FFL dealer. If that had been illegal, he would not have been able to do it that way. Making the rifles and magazines illegal might not get rid of them instantly, but would keep them from being advertised and legally acquired by any nut that decides to murder a bunch of folks.

What is your complaint about going through a FFL dealer?

[gypsie]

Heres a few issues as I see it:
- not many of those are registered. How do you get non registered out of circulation? Compliance rate in Canada for long gun registry was 20%. I have heard much the same for Auz, and expect NZ will achieve much the same. Even if the US achieves 50%, the number remaining is staggering. And then the remaining are all underground.
- how will the militias react? Yes, I do think that may be a real concern, fat and slow as they are. Particularly if they think that "now is the time".
- Who arrives at a criteria for what is acceptable?

Usually its the electorate.
But in the case of the USA the lobbyists will make that decision.


Is 'It's hard' a good excuse to do nothing?

[Decourcy]

Usually its the electorate.
But in the case of the USA the lobbyists will make that decision.


Is 'It's hard' a good excuse to do nothing?

No, but "it's effective" matters more. I expect other actions, possibly more effective, are harder.

[SeanM26]

So hypothetically, we ban all semi-automatic rifles that fire medium caliber cartridges. How do we get the 5+ million out of circulation?

[CWSmith]

I have many relatives who hunt. As far as I know, they have traditional hunting guns. They don't carry in public and they keep their weapons in a safe. I have no problem with them. However, they are the old NRA. The new NRA is a diiferent beast entirely. I could not keep a friend who carried a gun in public.

[George Jung]

So you boys feel that if you can’t do ‘perfect’ in one move, you just give up and do nothing? Wow. Almost appears you prefer ‘nothing’.

[bobbys]

I dont talk politics or religion with my friends, I will listen to them. I have never asked anyone how many guns they own. Yeah , my liberal friends like to lecture me but I dont engage. Course if they come over I make them bow to the Sarah Palin shrine.

[SeanM26]

Not at all. But everyone is saying that we need to "ban these weapons of war!" With no input on what will happen once they are banned.

Give me an honest answer of how you think we can reasonably remove these firearms and I will consider it.

[Gib Etheridge]

Just stop selling ammunition, period. If someone can prove that they actually need it then they can take the safety course and get very well vetted before getting a one time permit to purchase a limited amount.

Let them bear all of the arms they want, nothing says they have the right to purchase ammunition.

I don't see any other way

[George Jung]

Not at all. But everyone is saying that we need to "ban these weapons of war!" With no input on what will happen once they are banned.

Give me an honest answer of how you think we can reasonably remove these firearms and I will consider it.

you may have a point. Damn difficult to even imagine, isn’t it? If only we had a blueprint, guidance from someone who had been through this, successfully. Too bad that doesn’t exist, eh? Bet you’d jump at that!

[Decourcy]

Just stop selling ammunition, period. If someone can prove that they actually need it then they can take the safety course and get very well vetted before getting a one time permit to purchase a limited amount.

Let them bear all of the arms they want, nothing says they have the right to purchase ammunition.

I don't see any other way

I don't actually think that ammunition controls are a bad idea. It isn't perfect, because there are massive stockpiles of factory ammo, components, and Knowlege about how to make powder if required, but it would be far more effective that controlling the guns.

[Decourcy]

you may have a point. Damn difficult to even imagine, isn’t it? If only we had a blueprint, guidance from someone who had been through this, successfully. Too bad that doesn’t exist, eh? Bet you’d jump at that!

Once again:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. That is 3 times as many guns as the armed forces of the Russian Federation (30.3 million), China (27.5 million), North Korea (8.4 million), Ukraine (6.6 million), United States (4.5 million), India (3.9 million), Vietnam (3.8 million), Iran (3.3 million), South Korea (2.7 million), Pakistan (2.3 million), and all the other countries (39.7 million) combined.[6] American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined."[7]


"American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[8] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018, alone.[8] That is more than twice as many guns, as possessed by every law enforcement agency in the United States put together.[8] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[8] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[8] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces

[Jimmy W]

Not at all. But everyone is saying that we need to "ban these weapons of war!" With no input on what will happen once they are banned.

Give me an honest answer of how you think we can reasonably remove these firearms and I will consider it.

Have a buy back program offering a reasonable price then lock up anyone caught with one for several years. The nut cases will have a hard time getting one to murder groups of people with.

[gypsie]

No, but "it's effective" matters more. I expect other actions, possibly more effective, are harder.

No mass shootings in Oz since certain guns were made illegal.

I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say.
You seem to be championing the cause of 'it's hopeless so leave it alone', yet slipping around saying anything specific.

There is also a generational thing, in a hundred years time the ban will remain and the number of automatic weapons would be greatly reduced.

The very first thing to do is ban the guns, then follow up with 'actions' (is that raiding houses?) that can support that law.
Its the first step in the thousand mile march. This is why gun lobbyists send up every obstacle against a ban - it is the very first step and as long as it is not taken nothing further will happen.

[gypsie]

Once again:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. That is 3 times as many guns as the armed forces of the Russian Federation (30.3 million), China (27.5 million), North Korea (8.4 million), Ukraine (6.6 million), United States (4.5 million), India (3.9 million), Vietnam (3.8 million), Iran (3.3 million), South Korea (2.7 million), Pakistan (2.3 million), and all the other countries (39.7 million) combined.[6] American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined."[7]


"American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[8] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018, alone.[8] That is more than twice as many guns, as possessed by every law enforcement agency in the United States put together.[8] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[8] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[8] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces

What are you saying?
It's too hard so don't do it?

[gypsie]

So hypothetically, we ban all semi-automatic rifles that fire medium caliber cartridges. How do we get the 5+ million out of circulation?

That is actually a completely different problem and (counter intuitively) unrelated.
Banning guns and ammunition is an issue of legislation, enforcing it is a matter of policing. As it happens, #2 gets easier if #1 is in place.

[Jimmy W]

What are you saying?
It's too hard so don't do it?

That is exactly what he is saying.

[Hallam]

The alienation of friends is a result, not a cause. All due to the division in today's US.

And when you speak of division, this was a key tactic of Trumps election campaign with the employment of Cambridge Analytica targeting false news videos and information on Face book with the use of data mining to build profiles of voters etc etc during the last election.
A great documentary on this is now out on Netflix.
The Great Hack

[Dave Wright]

I have many relatives who hunt. As far as I know, they have traditional hunting guns. They don't carry in public and they keep their weapons in a safe. I have no problem with them. However, they are the old NRA. The new NRA is a diiferent beast entirely. I could not keep a friend who carried a gun in public.

We have a relative who always carries, including at family gatherings, it's visible if you are observant. Most people aren't. It's not something I do, or ever desire to do, but I've known him since he was a kid, I like him and I don't consider him a threat. He has never gotten out of line with relatives or strangers. He's also a Trump supporter, the only one in our extended family. I seldom discuss politics with him. He has other qualities that I feel outweigh these two factors. If you ever needed assistance in almost any way he would provide it, relative or not. He's pleasant and interesting to be around. What could I possibly gain losing him as a friend / relative? Part of the socialization process is getting along and functioning cooperatively with all sorts of people. I have no reason to think ill of him.

[mdh]

Would a prohibition against guns work better than drugs, alcohol, prostitution, or immigration?

[SeanM26]

Let's ban guns and then send armed government agents to seize them.

I dont see any problems with that.

[David G]

Let's ban guns and then send armed government agents to seize them.

I dont see any problems with that.

It's hard to converse when people are just being ridiculous.

I know this is a tough topic. But it's important. And doubly important for all viewpoints to be adequately and responsibly voiced. Hang in there.

[SeanM26]

Well, except for the fact the government would be seriously out-gunned.

[SeanM26]

It's hard to converse when people are just being ridiculous.

I know this is a tough topic. But it's important. And doubly important for all viewpoints to be adequately and responsibly voiced. Hang in there.

I am not being ridiculous. It is the only way to get the guns away from millions of Americans.

The terms "Molon Labe", "cold dead hands"," and "3%" are not catch phrases. They are straight up threats from citizens to the government.