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Thread: Hog in large wooden boats

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    If I was going to fix the hog on a sort of reasonable budget, my strategy would be to remove the garboards and broadstrakes and very slowly adjust the blocking over the course of weeks to correct some of the shape. Then, I would add a heavy beam over the top of the floor timbers as a keelson, heavily through bolted through floors and keels. Replank and go cruising.

    Of course, there may be bad wood in there, there may already be a keelson, etc.. Caveats apply, I'm not familiar with the boat.

    If it was the difference between keeping the boat going, and not, external diagonal strapping could be installed. Sort of dire, but would help structurally. I suspect it is a very strong boat to survive the grounding like that.
    Raking the caulking before straightening the keel and recaulking afterwards will help hold the shape as well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    These big wooden vessels are beyond me, I think owning one would be for me at least, a Sisyphean curse.
    whatever rocks your boat

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    All vessels require maintenance, the scale of that maintenance increases as the scale of the vessel does.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelirrojo View Post
    All vessels require maintenance, the scale of that maintenance increases as the scale of the vessel does.
    It seems to me to be a pretty much cubic relationship, both in cost to build and maintain.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    The measure I heard is double the cost of everything every 10 feet of extra length. It seems about right.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    If I was going to fix the hog on a sort of reasonable budget, my strategy would be to remove the garboards and broadstrakes and very slowly adjust the blocking over the course of weeks to correct some of the shape. Then, I would add a heavy beam over the top of the floor timbers as a keelson, heavily through bolted through floors and keels
    .

    You would be doctoring the symptoms, not fixing the cause of the problem. And potentially make it worse. Aggressively oversizing one element in a structure is rarely a great idea. The strength of a hull is not exclusively in the centerline. The keel is where it's most obvious, but the hull as a whole, the box girder of centerline, framing, planling and deck, has failed. If it's a carvel hull and a laid deck, and every case that has come up in this thread so far seems to be, this is because of the missing torsional stiffness of the diaphragm, or planking and deck. So istead of overenineering the keel:
    Restablish the correct geometry, replace structural elements that have failed adequately, then:
    * replank with diagonal strapping
    * replace the carvel planking with cold molded
    * replace a laid deck with glued ply subdeck

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    .

    You would be doctoring the symptoms, not fixing the cause of the problem. And potentially make it worse. Aggressively oversizing one element in a structure is rarely a great idea. The strength of a hull is not exclusively in the centerline. The keel is where it's most obvious, but the hull as a whole, the box girder of centerline, framing, planling and deck, has failed. If it's a carvel hull and a laid deck, and every case that has come up in this thread so far seems to be, this is because of the missing torsional stiffness of the diaphragm, or planking and deck. So istead of overenineering the keel:
    Restablish the correct geometry, replace structural elements that have failed adequately, then:
    * replank with diagonal strapping
    * replace the carvel planking with cold molded
    * replace a laid deck with glued ply subdeck
    Those may be the best fixes, but are very costly measures. My suggestion of stiffening the keel is intended to keep the boat going for another 20 years or so before the 100 year replank is undertaken. Strapping is the best thing to add, but very invasive and therefore expensive. It could reasonably cost $1M to replank a boat this big. After stiffening the keel, the next best option would be to add another heavy strake to the shear clamp. It is also fairly accessible and would require minimal cost for a big increase in stiffness.

    These are very heavily built boats, sagging due to years of difficult work, heavily loaded, and likely some boatyard or navigational mishaps.

    In reality, I would probably do absolutely nothing about the hog unless soft or failed timber was found somewhere that contributed.

  8. #43
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    The measure I heard is double the cost of everything every 10 feet of extra length. It seems about right.
    It's more about displacement than length, if you ignore high tech uldb's. I guess an average 40 foot sailboat is around 10 tons. My 50 footer is 20 tons. Yesterday I went out on a 63 footer. 60 tons.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    I find hog or other big obvious problems are the death kiss for big vessels without extraordinary pedigree. Why would someone who can afford a big boat, buy one where he knows there is a problem? More importantly a problem that anyone can see.
    The cost of the repair is not the issue. If one affords the boat one affords the repair. But why buy it in the first place? So that all your friends can ask "hey man, is your boat hogged or do I need new glasses?". And why repair it if you bought it? So you can deal with the yard and wait after the shipwrights? After all for the same money one can buy a good boat or keep using the "bargain" as it is.
    Pedigree trumps everything of course, you buy and repair a famous boat you get admired for your generosity of saving "that boat".

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    I find hog or other big obvious problems are the death kiss for big vessels without extraordinary pedigree. Why would someone who can afford a big boat, buy one where he knows there is a problem? More importantly a problem that anyone can see.
    The cost of the repair is not the issue. If one affords the boat one affords the repair. But why buy it in the first place? So that all your friends can ask "hey man, is your boat hogged or do I need new glasses?". And why repair it if you bought it? So you can deal with the yard and wait after the shipwrights? After all for the same money one can buy a good boat or keep using the "bargain" as it is.
    Pedigree trumps everything of course, you buy and repair a famous boat you get admired for your generosity of saving "that boat".
    That was my thought as well Rumars. If I had $330k to spend on a boat I *might* buy Hecate Ranger. She's a great boat. But I would want to fix the hog, so now she's a $500k boat. And for that sort of money I might want something altogether more spectacular, as pretty as she is. $500k, or even $330k, buys a lot of boat.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    Yep. If you have 500k to throw on a boat plus the yearly upkeep that comes attached, and you know that money is basicly lost the moment you sign the papers, than the boat must bring something more to the table than just a nice interior.
    This kind of boat usually goes to the "budget minded" buyer, either one that sees more boat for the money or one that has less money than the boat really needs. Both kinds tend to keep maintainance at a minimum so the boat keeps getting worse. The next buyer after this is the "ill fix her up for a song" type that moves the boat to some cheap backwater where it ends as a houseboat, and that is the happy end version.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Hog in large wooden boats

    We travel in different circles Phil, I'm talking about the ULDB,s.
    In my yacht club there are 5 yachts over 40 foot that race regularly.
    1 is 15 tonnes, the other 4 weigh about the same combined, with mine being 7.5 tonnes of that.
    They get more expensive as they get lighter.

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