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Thread: EV Dreaming

  1. #1
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    Default EV Dreaming

    So with all this talk about Elon Musk and Tesla ( still getting a Model 3 soon )

    I've been reading about this company Rivian - It's been a sleeper for about 10 years headed by Robert "RJ" Scaringe who seems to be the polar opposite of Musk, bio here



    I saw the two models they are producing at the LA Auto Show

    the suv



    and the pick up



    Ford just invested $500 million
    https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/24/fo...s-ev-platform/

    The company was founded on 4 April 2009 by CEO Robert "RJ" Scaringe, who graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a doctorate in mechanical engineering. After being renamed Avera Automotive and then Rivian Automotive,the company began focusing on autonomous electric vehicles in 2011. Rivian received a large investment and grew significantly in 2015, opening research facilities in Michigan and the Bay Area.[12] Relocating headquarters to Livonia, Michigan to be closer to key suppliers, Rivian began working exclusively on electricautonomous vehicles, specifically building an “entire ecosystem” of related products. It also began gearing its prototypes towards the “ride-sharing and driverless car markets."


    A 2011 prototype from Rivian, introduced by Scaringe

    It was reported in September 2016 that Rivian was negotiating to buy a manufacturing plant formerly owned by Mitsubishi Motors in Normal, Illinois. In January 2017, Rivian acquired the plant and its manufacturing contents for $16 million, with the plant to become Rivian’s primary North American manufacturing facility. Rivian’s acquisition of a near production-ready facility instead of building a new factory[12] has been likened to Tesla's acquisition of the NUMMI plant in California. The company received a $1 million grant and a five-year tax abatement from Normal contingent on meeting employment targets and investing $40.5 million over five years. Rivian also received $49.5 million in tax credits from the state government; these credits are also contingent upon meeting employment targets and investing at least $175 million into the site by 2024.
    Rivian employed around 100 people at the end of 2016, and that number grew to 160 by August 2017. Sumitomo Corporation made a “strategic investment” in Rivian in December 2017, and Rivian reported that its alpha prototypes were complete and undergoing testing. Also that month, Rivian revealed its first two products: an electric five-passenger pickup truck and an electric seven-passenger SUV, provisionally named the A1T and AIC respectively. With both vehicles unveiled at the LA Auto Show in November 2018, production is scheduled to begin in 2020 with the truck to launch first. Both vehicles were described as ready for rough terrain and semi-autonomous, and the company outlined a plan for its next generation of models to be fully autonomous.
    Rivian had 250 employees at the start of 2018. In May 2018, Rivian received $200 million in debt financing from Standard Chartered Bank, bringing total raised funds upwards of $450 million. Other investors at the time included Abdul Latif Jameel. As of February 2019, Rivian employs 750 people[2] across facilities in Michigan, Illinois, California, and the United Kingdom. Around 50 of those employees were in Normal, putting Rivian ahead of its local job-creation targets.
    In February 2019, Amazon announced it would be leading an investment round of $700 million into Rivian. The round included participation from existing shareholders as well. In April 2019, Ford Motor Company invested $500 million.

    the companies About video is probably one the best production videos I've ever seen from a company.

    https://www.rivian.com/about
    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 07-21-2019 at 09:23 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    You need somebody like Musk to start the ball rolling. He didn't just open the door for other EV makers, he kicked it in and came strutting into the room like Mick Jagger. Now the rest can casually walk in with their products to change the world.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    The one who will change the world is the guy or company that can profitably produce an EV for around $22,000 (Actual price... not "$40,000 with the options most people want"). Until that happens, EV's will remain a boutique product.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  4. #4
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    What freaking car can you get to $22,000 ???? Do you live in 1998 ?

    Oh wait you can get a Toyota Yaris or a Honda Fit



    Ooooh fun if I was 17 and just got my license
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Buick Encore is being leased for about $130 a month.

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    The one who will change the world is the guy or company that can profitably produce an EV for around $22,000 (Actual price... not "$40,000 with the options most people want"). Until that happens, EV's will remain a boutique product.
    The hope is to be about to produce the battery profitably for about $20,000. Forget the car.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    there are not many really cheap cars you can get for 20k anymore. 30K is a pretty affordable price point for a nicely equipped car
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Buick Encore is being leased for about $130 a month.
    Annnnnnnnd this is what ya get



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  9. #9
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    the Encore is really not that bad a vehicle. My mom has always liked Buicks and her Rendezvous is getting really long in the teeth. She recently had a brake failure due to rotted out hard lines under the rear of the car. I am trying to steer her towards the Encore. To be fair the Rendezvous did give her 100,000+ miles of cushy and reliable driving before it needed any work at all.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

    -Dalai Lama

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    What freaking car can you get to $22,000 ???? Do you live in 1998 ?
    In 1999, I bought a Honda Accord and paid $21,600.
    In 2013, I bought another Honda Accord, and paid $20,800.
    Today, a 2019 Honda Accord can be bought for less than $23,000.

    I'm not endorsing Honda Accords here... simply trying to illustrate that your economic calculator is in bad need of recalibration.

    Unlike your chi-chi southern California entrepreneurial world, the majority of people in this country don't live the high life.... it's said that 40% of the people in this country couldn't raise $400 in cash, in the event of an emergency... let alone $40,000 to $50,000 for a Model 3.

    So, yeah, people buy a Yaris or a Fit because they can't afford a Tesla.... and they buy LOTS of them. How many Teslas are on the road today... and who buys them? Would you describe Tesla owners as 'ordinary people'? Or would it be more accurate to say that they are members of the economic elite... or, people who are indebting themselves beyond their means because they simply have to have the latest and greatest... and that Kool-Aid they drank was powerful stuff?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  11. #11
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    So Norman you're saying you can get a .......... Honda Accord ? Got ya

    FWIW the largest selling auto in America the Ford F-150 ( Which I think is an absolutely useless vehicle for about 90% of the people that buy them ) starts at about $30,000 and they sell the s#it out of them I so wouldn't call them
    a boutique product.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    the Encore is really not that bad a vehicle. My mom has always liked Buicks .
    Thats the car all the kids want the MOM CAR Thats a marketing slogan if ever I heard one - "A Car Your Mom Would Love"
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    What freaking car can you get to $22,000 ???? Do you live in 1998 ?

    Oh wait you can get a Toyota Yaris or a Honda Fit

    Ooooh fun if I was 17 and just got my license
    There are quite a few new cars that cost under $22,000. All the majors have models for under that price point. You can even buy a an AWD car for under $20K (Subaru Impreza). My criteria for a new car do not include "fun", but if you want "fun" you can buy a Fiat 124 Abarth Spider for $25K. Note these are posted prices TODAY in Bangor, Maine. I am sure you can get the cars for less than the prices the dealers post on line. There are many options below your $22K price point and lots more if you go up to $25K.

    I agree with Norman, until the prices of eVs come down significantly, they will remain toys for the well to do. Frankly a $40K car is totally out of reach for a LARGE part of the population and even a $22K new car is a stretch for that segment. Furthermore, the federal tax incentives as presently structured also provide little to no benefit for lower income buyers.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    A car is a box with wheels for moving people.

    What a person thinks a car says about them really says a lot more about them than they think. It’s like the type who think the motorbike somehow makes the rider a better person.

    Also, through my work in youth sports, I know literally hundreds of driving aged kids. Virtually none of them want to own ANY car. They want rides. They want Ubers and Lyfts and self driving taxis, and they want them NOW! We actually discussed yesterday how the girls on Daughter’s team all want “those google cars”, so they can sit in the car and Snapchat at each other while it ferries them around.

    That is, the ones who haven’t already realized that the internet has precluded the need to actually GO anywhere. The ones who skipped to the end of Candide, perhaps?

    Peace,
    The World Moves Fast...

  15. #15
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Actually, what we really need to do is move away from the idea of personal vehicles and toward public transit. This applies now for urban areas, but will be a long time coming for rural areas. Personally I would love to see a significant tax for personal vehicle vehicle operation is urban areas.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    So Norman you're saying you can get a .......... Honda Accord ? Got ya


    Pick any car you want. I was only using the Accord as an example, since I've owned two of them and remember the prices paid, over a 20 year period.

    But here's the 'tell':

    Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal)
    What freaking car can you get to $22,000 ???? Do you live in 1998 ?


    I don't think I could come up with a more snobbish, elitist response than that.... sort of the modern day equivalent of 'let them eat cake'. I remember someone who, at one time, didn't have a pot to piss in.... ever know anyone like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    FWIW the largest selling auto in America the Ford F-150 ( Which I think is an absolutely useless vehicle for about 90% of the people that buy them ) starts at about $30,000 and they sell the s#it out of them I so wouldn't call them a boutique product.
    Perhaps not... but the appelation still works, for the Tesla.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  17. #17
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    My state legislature is considering removing the state gas tax and implementing a tax on mileage driven. Hopefully my Honda Fit would pay less per mile than the Ram 1500 4WD my neighbor commutes alone in.
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    Actually, what we really need to do is move away from the idea of personal vehicles and toward public transit. This applies now for urban areas, but will be a long time coming for rural areas. Personally I would love to see a significant tax for personal vehicle vehicle operation is urban areas.
    It's achievable. Here in rural Aberdeenshire we have a thing called Dial-a-Bus. We have a friend who doesn't drive and she uses it a couple of times a week for shopping trips. It seems to work well.

    https://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/roa...-a-bus/huntly/
    Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race. H. G. Wells

  19. #19
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Interesting, eh? Lifestyle accessory- or transportation?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    My son has it figured out that at 200,000 miles, his Tesla will be cheaper than his Prius(which he has driven for some years).

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    So Norman you're saying you can get a .......... Honda Accord ? Got ya

    FWIW the largest selling auto in America the Ford F-150 ( Which I think is an absolutely useless vehicle for about 90% of the people that buy them ) starts at about $30,000 and they sell the s#it out of them I so wouldn't call them
    a boutique product.
    My Ford F 150 4wd is a necessity for me where I live. It's a 1996, runs great and cost $4500. If you pay 30 to 50 k for a new car you have just flushed all the depreciating bucks down the crapper.
    I can understand buying a machine for work like a truck or tractor, but a car?? Rob has this one right.
    PaulF

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    My Ford F 150 4wd is a necessity for me where I live. It's a 1996, runs great and cost $4500. If you pay 30 to 50 k for a new car you have just flushed all the depreciating bucks down the crapper.
    I can understand buying a machine for work like a truck or tractor, but a car?? Rob has this one right.
    Exactly. We have needs for vehicles, and wants, and the two are NOT the same. Technology will make cars less necessary, though, as things like the replicators and simulation rooms from Star Trek no longer seem so far fetched.
    We ain’t too far away from printing our own stuff at home, after all, and having immersive experiences at home, too.

    Also, the reality is, the inexorable march of humanity will connect all this disparate foolishness into one massive, semi-congealed blob of technological mishmash, and personal ownership of most things will be odd.

    Sort of like how we become more childlike as we age, maybe so to do we become more “primitive” (perhaps pure?) as we become more advanced?

    Peace,
    What?!

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    I fear that there will not be any significant advancement toward electric cars nor toward super efficient mileage cars until the world, and especially the US, takes climate change seriously. That means until legislation is passed that demands manufacturers meet serious standards. At that point the world/country will undertake a 'moon shot' mentality and come up with the innovation needed. Until then, makers like Tesla and others will dab at the market they can sell to. When the time/economy is right, a Henry Ford will come along and mass produce a car for all. This may or may not have a steering wheel... time will tell. I suppose I'm hoping for the driverless option because by the time this all comes about I'll be old enough that they'll take my license away anyway. I just hope that then I'll still have enough marbles to know how to tell the car where I want to go. Unfortunately all this could unfold sooner than I might choose!

    Jeff

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I fear that there will not be any significant advancement toward electric cars nor toward super efficient mileage cars until the world, and especially the US, takes climate change seriously. That means until legislation is passed that demands manufacturers meet serious standards. At that point the world/country will undertake a 'moon shot' mentality and come up with the innovation needed. Until then, makers like Tesla and others will dab at the market they can sell to. When the time/economy is right, a Henry Ford will come along and mass produce a car for all. This may or may not have a steering wheel... time will tell. I suppose I'm hoping for the driverless option because by the time this all comes about I'll be old enough that they'll take my license away anyway. I just hope that then I'll still have enough marbles to know how to tell the car where I want to go. Unfortunately all this could unfold sooner than I might choose!

    Jeff
    United States needs to follow suit. California already has net zero carbon laws in place...

    Peace,
    We’ll Wait...

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    My son has it figured out that at 200,000 miles, his Tesla will be cheaper than his Prius(which he has driven for some years).
    Don't get that. In 200,000 miles, you would have spent $12,000 on gasoline in the Prius. Does he think electricity is free?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Annnnnnnnd this is what ya get




    Nice car for $10,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Nice car for $10,000.
    And if properly cared for will last into the 200,000 mile range.
    PaulF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Don't get that. In 200,000 miles, you would have spent $12,000 on gasoline in the Prius. Does he think electricity is free?
    Right now, electric filling stations are a novelty, very soon they will cost. Energy is not free, there is only so much Hydro, Solar, wind and soon Nuclear generation. If the large majority of vehicles are electric the limit of the grid will soon be exceeded. Coal and Petroleum generating plants are on the way out.
    PaulF

  29. #29
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Grrrrrrr


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  30. #30
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Most I ever spent on a vehicle (not counting boats) was £4500. The average of the dozen or so I have owned must be near £1000. Best car I ever had in terms of value was a VW Scirocco Storm, bought for £275. Lasted 5 years.

    Dudes that think they're cool at the lights in a £30, 000 car have an invisible (to them) neon sign over their heads, saying 'd*ck-head'

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    In 1999, I bought a Honda Accord and paid $21,600.
    In 2013, I bought another Honda Accord, and paid $20,800.
    Today, a 2019 Honda Accord can be bought for less than $23,000.

    I'm not endorsing Honda Accords here... simply trying to illustrate that your economic calculator is in bad need of recalibration.

    Unlike your chi-chi southern California entrepreneurial world, the majority of people in this country don't live the high life.... it's said that 40% of the people in this country couldn't raise $400 in cash, in the event of an emergency... let alone $40,000 to $50,000 for a Model 3.

    So, yeah, people buy a Yaris or a Fit because they can't afford a Tesla.... and they buy LOTS of them. How many Teslas are on the road today... and who buys them? Would you describe Tesla owners as 'ordinary people'? Or would it be more accurate to say that they are members of the economic elite... or, people who are indebting themselves beyond their means because they simply have to have the latest and greatest... and that Kool-Aid they drank was powerful stuff?
    About ten times more Honda Civics are bought than Honda Fits. Ten times more Camrys than Yaris’s. Three times as many F150 pickups than Toyota Corollas.
    Evs don’t have to be as cheap as a civic to sell well but their sales are irrelevant to lowering GHG emissions or reducing oil use given the economic incentives to own trucks as general use vehicles. Nothing wrong with an EV carving out a niche like hybrids or performance suvs.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    Right now, electric filling stations are a novelty, very soon they will cost. Energy is not free, there is only so much Hydro, Solar, wind and soon Nuclear generation. If the large majority of vehicles are electric the limit of the grid will soon be exceeded. Coal and Petroleum generating plants are on the way out.
    Musk, being a smart cookie has made electric recharge free for his cars in the UK. He has invested in millions of square miles of solar panels in the US, and sells his carbon tokens to energy companies here. They build the recharging points and supply Tesla owners free for life. Naturally that is a serious selling point for Tesla cars.

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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Grrrrrrr



    Only thing grrreen about it is the paint color.

  34. #34
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    Yea but Grrrrrrr

    Actually this post was supposed to be a little more about the founders of both Tesla and Rivian but it seems to have taken the "Usual" turn
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    Default Re: EV Dreaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Annnnnnnnd this is what ya get



    Admit it Joe, if this car had a Tesla logo on it you would be lusting after it

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