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Thread: Evil socialised medical care

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Free is the disingenuous argument ignorant people use to make socialized healthcare sound spooky, even though socialized roads and schools are fine...

    Free?

    How about using my taxes, like every OTHER civilized nation?

    Peace,
    What DO I Get For My Taxes (Gas Tax Covers The Roads, Property Taxes The Schools...)?

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    please point me to this provision of the aca


    it's not part of the ACA. it's part of the conglomerate of health care rules and regulations.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    it's not part of the ACA. it's part of the conglomerate of health care rules and regulations.
    cite please
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Sigh . . . Here we go again. AlanMc pretending that the experience of every other developed country is irrelevant, and that if we just got government out of the way . . . . A statement of faith, not reason, and certainly not based on any evidence. And just ask our friends from other countries what would happen if they attempted to adopt anything even vaguely like the US system. The government that tried it would be out of power in milliseconds.

    That damned chart, one more time. The rest of the civilized world is in the lower group also. Whoopee, American exceptionalism!!
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-16-2019 at 03:15 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    We'll get back to you if we decide we need a simplistic, naive answer that completely ignores reality.

    Jeff C
    My weekend is over so I must start reasoning like an adult.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    It can happen, Rob. But the typical such horrible story here is that someone has a very rare disease, and the meds aren't covered by the drug plans. Or the individual's hyper-specialized care has to happen in one of Canada's about 3 big cities, and what bankrupts people is the costs borne by family members who travel with and stay with their loved one. And yeah, substandard care sometimes happens too - as it does anywhere in the world. A medical error, or other kinds of incompetence - there's a reason why there's malpractice insurance. But Canada (and everywhere else) has universal health insurance exactly to make those stories the exceptions, rather than the primary cause of personal bankruptcy in the country.
    Well said. Much the same here. For the most part, for almost all, our "socialised" system with taxpayer owned and funded hospitals and heavily subsidised general medical practices works very well.

    John Welsford
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Well said. Much the same here. For the most part, for almost all, our "socialised" system with taxpayer owned and funded hospitals and heavily subsidised general medical practices works very well.

    John Welsford
    Like our socialized roads and cops and firefighters and schools.

    But, itís cool to be ignorant, so here we are.

    Electrolytes!

    Peace,
    Robert

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Why is America so "exceptional" in this, compared with every other industrialized country in the world?
    Follow the money. Cui bono?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent, setting prices low that dr's have to take for services, and setting low prices that drug companies have to take for products. yeah, you can do it. not sure if i'd want it for myself. but, i think dr's get paid too much as it is. who thinks they deserve that kind of pay?
    If you go to the staff carpark at the taxpayer owned and funded hospital where my wife works, you'll see a lineup that includes Maserati, lots of them, they seem to be the car of choice for surgeons. You'll see a couple of Lambo and Ferrari, lots of Lexus, and a lot more very late model up market cars. I'd guess by that that our system, socialist though it is, is paying competitive rates to its doctors in order to get competent skills.

    John Welsford
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Like our socialized roads and cops and firefighters and schools.

    But, it’s cool to be ignorant, so here we are.

    Electrolytes!

    Peace,
    Robert
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Domesticated_Mr. Know It All View Post
    The Doctors.
    They carry a huge responsibility, plus it takes a long time and a lot of money to get the skills that heal you. I dont have a problem with doctors being paid consistent with that.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Here's one showing all the OECD countries:

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sigh . . . Here we go again. AlanMc pretending that the experience of every other developed country is irrelevant, and that if we just got government out of the way . . . . A statement of faith, not reason, and certainly not based on any evidence. And just ask our friends from other countries what would happen if they attempted to adopt anything even vaguely like the US system. The government that tried it would be out of power in milliseconds.
    US President Donald Trump has caused a stir by tweeting his criticisms of the UK's universal healthcare, describing it as a system that is "going broke and not working".
    NHS England boss Simon Stevens responded that "healthcare for everybody delivered at half the cost of the US healthcare system is something that people in this country are deeply and rightly committed to".
    In the UK, healthcare is universal, while in the States there are 28 million people who are not covered by public or private insurance.
    But does the NHS really cost half as much?
    If you look at all healthcare spending, including treatment funded privately by individuals, the US spent 17.2% of its GDP on healthcare in 2016, compared with 9.7% in the UK.


    In pounds per head, that's £2,892 on healthcare for every person in the UK and £7,617 per person in the US. So as a proportion of the value of the goods and services produced by all sectors of the economy the UK spends a bit more than half what the US spends, and in spending per head it's a bit less than half.

    from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42950587
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #84
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    cite please

    https://reason.com/2019/06/11/federa...s-to-fix-that/

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Oh, but we get soooo much for spending all that money . . .

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    My weekend is over so I must start reasoning like an adult.
    You are welcome to prove it at any time. As of now, we haven't seen much evidence.

    Jeff C

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    My weekend is over so I must start reasoning like an adult.
    Is this the first of our trolls to self identify as a part time pillock?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #88
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent, setting prices low that dr's have to take for services, and setting low prices that drug companies have to take for products. yeah, you can do it. not sure if i'd want it for myself. but, i think dr's get paid too much as it is. who thinks they deserve that kind of pay?
    Really? Tell me what part of my family's health care has been rationed. Tell me what rationing applies in my country.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Around here, those close to the bottom DO have their healthcare paid by those close to the top.

    For people in most jobs here, going without a couple of days pay due to getting healthcare is not a problem, because they have paid sick leave. Sadly, it is no longer an almost universal benefit.
    It is not clear where "around here" is. Also, near the bottom is not the same as those in the bottom 50%.

    For people with low paying jobs, even missing one day may cause financial difficulties.
    Life is complex.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    Is that why over-the-counter aspirin tablets are billed at $30 a piece? A single IV bag of saline solution billed at $1500?

    I don't think so.
    And I don't think that those prices are typical.

    From the internet:
    most emergency room prices are inflated based on the rates at which insurance companies will reimburse the hospital on a patientís behalf.
    Insurers are willing to pay these prices. If you object, a reduction will be given.
    Life is complex.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    I think comparing (contrasting?) a state funded healthcare system with an insurance based one is a mistake. They are based on different premises. In general insurance works because not everybody makes a claim. In healthcare sooner or later everybody claims.
    I think state systems acknowledge this and accept the costs as part of being alive in a civilised country, where all citizens benefit in the long run.

    All healthcare is rationed. There is argument here in NZ that some expensive cancer drugs that are state funded in Australia should be funded here too. At that level it is just an economic decision. In the middle of Sub-Saharan Africa they possibly cant even afford a band aid.

    I can understand why those in the USA who are making big money from healthcare dont want to change, but for the life of me I cant understand why so many ordinary people seem to be philosophically opposed to state funded healthcare given that they were OK with it when they were in the military.
    Money may not buy happiness, but it can buy a boat that will pull right up next to it!

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    It is not clear where "around here" is. Also, near the bottom is not the same as those in the bottom 50%.

    For people with low paying jobs, even missing one day may cause financial difficulties.
    Fair call, but both of us have been around here long enough I thought we'd have a fair knowledge of where most regulars live.

    "Around here" is Australia.

    There seems to be no reason why exactly 50% should be the mark that divides those who are subsidised from those who pay the subsidy. There seems to be no reason why those in, say, the middle 40% should basically break even while the top 20% (or 30%, or 11.9895734623895% or whatever) pay for the bottom X percent.

    Yes, we know that some people don't have paid sick leave but as I noted, the point is that you can have societies in which paid sick leave is the norm.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Really? Tell me what part of my family's health care has been rationed. Tell me what rationing applies in my country.
    Yup, same here, there is some rationing in the really expensive long term drug subsidies, but that in terms of numbers affected is quite rare. Otherwise, you get sick, you get yourself in through the ED door, ( or an ambulance does that for you) and you're treated. All the way from broken bones or cuts, up to heart lung, kidney or other organ transplants, new knees or hips, rehab, even modification of your home so you can get a wheelchair around if needed. No bills, just part of the deal. In the case of accidents that take you off work the system pays 80% of your wages until you are fit for work again.

    And no, our taxes are not swingingly exorbitant.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    It is not clear where "around here" is. Also, near the bottom is not the same as those in the bottom 50%.

    For people with low paying jobs, even missing one day may cause financial difficulties.
    Chris is in Australia. Good place, nearly as good as New Zealand where I am.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Really? Tell me what part of my family's health care has been rationed. Tell me what rationing applies in my country.

    "Federal and state health departments also ration through policies, programs and initiatives.
    Ms Martin said clinicians, such as doctors, had an important role in decision-making about the allocation of resources simply by carrying out their jobs.
    "They routinely make decisions about the type and extent of patients' treatment, and which patients should and should not receive certain treatments," she said.


    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-...rationing.html

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    All goods and services are "rationed" by some mechanism or other.

    Some roads and bridges get built (or repaired) this year, others not. Some neighbourhoods have grocery stores in them, others not. Some treatments for cancer are readily available, others not. Some folks get into graduate schools, or can find apprenticeships, others not. Some folks drive Testarossas, others not. What you'll tell me is that this isn't "rationing," it's market forces allocating resources or goods/services impartially. But it isn't "impartial." Market forces allocate resources or goods/services according to a particular rubric - according to an economic "bottom line." Prices and supply find a level which maximise the return to the owner class, and without intervention or regulation there's no guarantee that the price/supply will do that by delivering the broadest-base benefit to the general population.

    When the medical community issues "best practice" guidelines which encourage this treatment rather than that one - the guidelines are a form of "rationing." They interfere with free markets by dissuading clinicians from offering lucrative but garbage (or merely 3rd rate) treatments. That's a "public good," which an unregulated market would not produce. When a government initiative sponsors research into effective approaches to the top 5 causes of years-of-life-lost, it's "rationing" research funds to skew markets to produce "public goods," rather than have research primarily focus on where there could be the greatest economic return for those who control research resources.

    And when a hospital - whether run by a private organization or a publicly funded one - allocates operating room hours to specialties and sub-specialties, they're "rationing" the finite resource too. Or rather, distributing access to care in ways which mirror the hospital's mandate. Whether that's the hospital's likelihood of being able to recover costs, maximise profit, develop and sustain expertise in particular sectors, or treat specific patient populations. The issue isn't whether any of us have our care "rationed," by which we mean that our access to care is governed by some priority setting process.

    The issue is what principles are expressed in those treatment decisions, and who makes them.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    All goods and services are "rationed" by some mechanism or other.

    Some roads and bridges get built (or repaired) this year, others not. Some neighbourhoods have grocery stores in them, others not. Some treatments for cancer are readily available, others not. Some folks get into graduate schools, or can find apprenticeships, others not. Some folks drive Testarossas, others not. What you'll tell me is that this isn't "rationing," it's market forces allocating resources or goods/services impartially. But it isn't "impartial." Market forces allocate resources or goods/services according to a particular rubric - according to an economic "bottom line." Prices and supply find a level which maximise the return to the owner class, and without intervention or regulation there's no guarantee that the price/supply will do that by delivering the broadest-base benefit to the general population.

    When the medical community issues "best practice" guidelines which encourage this treatment rather than that one - the guidelines are a form of "rationing." They interfere with free markets by dissuading clinicians from offering lucrative but garbage (or merely 3rd rate) treatments. That's a "public good," which an unregulated market would not produce. When a government initiative sponsors research into effective approaches to the top 5 causes of years-of-life-lost, it's "rationing" research funds to skew markets to produce "public goods," rather than have research primarily focus on where there could be the greatest economic return for those who control research resources.

    And when a hospital - whether run by a private organization or a publicly funded one - allocates operating room hours to specialties and sub-specialties, they're "rationing" the finite resource too. Or rather, distributing access to care in ways which mirror the hospital's mandate. Whether that's the hospital's likelihood of being able to recover costs, maximise profit, develop and sustain expertise in particular sectors, or treat specific patient populations. The issue isn't whether any of us have our care "rationed," by which we mean that our access to care is governed by some priority setting process.

    The issue is what principles are expressed in those treatment decisions, and who makes them.

    agreed. i was just surprised to see that guy say his state run HC wasn't "rationed". of course it is.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    There seems to be no reason why exactly 50% should be the mark that divides those who are subsidised from those who pay the subsidy. There seems to be no reason why those in, say, the middle 40% should basically break even while the top 20% (or 30%, or 11.9895734623895% or whatever) pay for the bottom X percent.
    Actually there are good reasons. Certainly arbitrary reasons. Economists make broad distinctions among the poor, middle class, and rich. Their divisions between between the economic classes vary widely. I simply took the most "liberal" of their rages. Placing as many in the poor group - those below the median, as possible and the fewest in the rich group - those above twice the median. And I include unrealized gains and other adjustments to income that many ignore. I am even willing to adjust for age.

    I don't know who you think should pay for government provided services, but I will offer my view. If the consensus is that people at or below the median (or whatever level they choose) have enough income to pay for government services, then those above that level should not complain when their income above that level is taxed at 100%.

    In any case, your comment about "near the bottom" seems to be a bit conservative for most people in the US who think those with incomes well above the median have economic problems and need help with their medical costs.
    Life is complex.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    I was listening to On Point on NPR yesterday. They had 2 callers, the first was an EMT who was advocating medicare for all. He said many of his calls were to people who didn't have adequate health insurance and put off medical care until it was way too serious. The next caller said he had Medicare and private supplimental insurance and we needed to be pragmatic about healthcare. What does pragmatic mean? If the underinsured are going to die, they should hurry up and decrease the surplus population. Talk about I got mine.

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