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Thread: Evil socialised medical care

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Wouldn't it be much simpler and more efficient to simply put all this under the umbrella of infrastructure? One gets ill, one goes to the doctor, or calls an ambulance. One gets treated. No one asks for his insurance. No one sends a bill. No one makes a profit from insuring you.
    You keep banging on about infrastructure. Water & Sewerage are infrastructure, but there are many different ways that they can be provided and paid for.
    Ours in the UK can be charged on a sliding scale based on the value of your house, or off a meter. Roads and bridges are infrastructure, In the UK we have a toll motorway and toll bridges in addition to the network paid for out of taxes on everyone. Infrastructure is not a good definition of what Health Care should be.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    So the government pays old people. Why not pay young people?
    The government is an instrument of the people.
    The people pay old people, and chip in to pay for healthcare, and all the other things that the people consider important to the safety and well being of their neighbours.
    There is nothing wrong with everyone getting together and helping each other out and maybe benefiting from that safety net when they need it too.

    Why do Americans have such a hard time with that?

    And, when it comes to healthcare it keeps the service level high and the costs down.
    American's, individually, spend more money on healthcare that anyone else - no surprise. But the American government also spends more on healthcare per capita, than any other government. The USA gets hit twice for what other countries only pay once - because of a blind clinging to not paying for stuff for your neighbour......

    The American healthcare system is the poster child of the limitations of the 'market'.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    So the government pays old people. Why not pay young people?
    There are a number of countries experimenting with just that, a universal basic income.

    John Welsford
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The evil part is you think it cost you $90.

    In January or February I ad 2 strokes. One in my sleep left me with a blind spot in my vision. The one the next night caused me to call 911 for a ride to the hospital. 2 days and 2 nights of care. They did not find the cause. (They did find some minor damage in my brain from the strokes, but it is all now resolved.)

    I paid a couple hundred dollars. Medicare paid $30K. Medicare was able to pay because I and many others paid premiums to allow Medicare to have the money to do so.

    Had I not had insurance, I would not have gone to the hospital and the outcome would have been the same. One might say that the $30K was wasted.
    It's bizarre that you think it's evil that we have a more efficient system whereby we all put in a little bit.

    By the way, my wife and I subsidise a bunch of other people. So what, we can afford it and we're happy to help.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Bundling healthcare into the general taxes hides who is actually pays for healthcare. I would like those in the bottom 50% to get healthcare paid for by those in the top 50%.

    I think you have the common view of why people don't get healthcare. I think it is often different. For many going without a couple days pay due to getting healthcare is an economically difficult choice.
    Around here, those close to the bottom DO have their healthcare paid by those close to the top.

    For people in most jobs here, going without a couple of days pay due to getting healthcare is not a problem, because they have paid sick leave. Sadly, it is no longer an almost universal benefit.

    By the way, I've spent most of my life self-employed in one way or the other so I've effectively been subsidising those who had paid sick leave, even when I was earning very little. That's cool, the fact that I missed out is no reason for them to miss out. The high GDP per capita, low national debt and good national health stats show that it can work. And I find that going to places without socialised medicine creeps me out; I gladly pay more to see fewer people struggling with their life.
    Last edited by Chris249; 07-16-2019 at 05:59 AM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    Why not? Because young people are still in their most productive years, by the very nature of being young people.

    Put another way, who do you want driving 18 wheelers and delivering food to supermarkets? The 35 year old with 20/20 vision and lightening fast reflexes with stamina and energy to burn, or the 84 year old who still needs to work with his cataracts, nominal eyesight, slower reaction time, a dodgy hip, and needs an afternoon nap a little after lunch time.
    Well, in exchange for their pension the 84 year olds could ride shotgun on the 18 wheelers, sharing the driver's amphetamines, keeping the kids awake with annoying tales of how good things used to be, and making sure the driver gets rests by demanding they pull over at every public bathroom. Win-win!

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Why is healthcare so expensive that insurance is required to pay it?

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    Why is healthcare so expensive that insurance is required to pay it?
    asked and answered. . .

    ignoring the artificial reasons, healthcare is equally labor and technologically intensive; technology regardless of industry is always expensive and the labor involved in healthcare is highly educated and skilled, that doesn’t come cheap
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Is that why over-the-counter aspirin tablets are billed at $30 a piece? A single IV bag of saline solution billed at $1500?

    I don't think so.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    Is that why over-the-counter aspirin tablets are billed at $30 a piece? A single IV bag of saline solution billed at $1500?

    I don't think so.
    'ignoring artificial reasons. . .'
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
    Is that why over-the-counter aspirin tablets are billed at $30 a piece? A single IV bag of saline solution billed at $1500?

    I don't think so.

    well, hamburgers don't cost $10 either. you can make that at home for $2. but they have to pay the rent, the utilities, the waiters, the cooks, dish washers etc. and that's why that burger is $10.

    now swap "waiters, cooks, dishwashers" with "drs, nurses, anesthesiologists, lab techs" in those equations and you can see why stuff gets marked up so much. then don't forget MRI machines, radiation machines, etc instead of a gas grill as far as equipment goes.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Doc suggested it may just be a rib-sternum thing. Fk knows, but at least I have some certainty that the bilge pump isn't going to cut out on me, at some highly inconvenient moment. We'll see how things go over the next few days.

    Pete
    I had a similar experience at the hospital. They were convinced it was a problem with my ticker. Turned out to be a bad reaction to a blood pressure medication.
    Keep calm, persistence beats resistance.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post

    now swap "waiters, cooks, dishwashers" with "drs, nurses, anesthesiologists, lab techs" in those equations and you can see why stuff gets marked up so much. then don't forget MRI machines, radiation machines, etc instead of a gas grill as far as equipment goes.
    you left insurance administration costs and profiteering; these are key to understanding why united statesian health care cost are exorbitant compared to the rest of the world

    not to say they are the only reasons, we will have to deal with pharmaceutical costs as well
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent, setting prices low that dr's have to take for services, and setting low prices that drug companies have to take for products. yeah, you can do it. not sure if i'd want it for myself. but, i think dr's get paid too much as it is. who thinks they deserve that kind of pay?

  15. #50
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    Cool Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    who thinks they deserve that kind of pay?


    The Doctors.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent, setting prices low that dr's have to take for services, and setting low prices that drug companies have to take for products. yeah, you can do it. not sure if i'd want it for myself. but. . .
    um, no

    it's not that hard really

    make medicare available to all for purchase including corporate hr departments
    use 'normal' insurance practice to amortize the price for medicare
    offer subsidized rates for those with lower incomes
    adjust income tax rates to pay for the above subsidies
    set medicare payouts for pharmaceuticals based upon international market prices
    tweak amortization rates and tax rates yearly as needed
    done
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 07-16-2019 at 11:44 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Domesticated_Mr. Know It All View Post
    The Doctors.

    the bourgeoisie

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    I think we need to tax employer provided health insurance like regular income, the poor folks without employer subsidized healthcare are essentially subsidizing the people that do have it via tax breaks. I would ditch the mortgage deduction as well.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    One has a hard time explaining socialized medical care to a listener whom enters the conversation with the mindset that it is anti-American and that there has to be winners and losers. Socialized medical care is fraught with compromises, and if the listener attitude leans toward non-compromise, the conversation devolves into "whataboutism" and finger-pointing at perceived injustices or omissions. Why bother to try to educate those who do not wish to be educated?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent, setting prices low that dr's have to take for services, and setting low prices that drug companies have to take for products. yeah, you can do it. not sure if i'd want it for myself. but, i think dr's get paid too much as it is. who thinks they deserve that kind of pay?
    Simply not true. First - of course it isn't free. Second, the cost is spread over a larger group. Third, the admin costs are much lower (no insurance execs making millions off you). Fourth, if everyone is one one plan, that plan has huge clout with drug companies.

    Personally, I'd rather see the $ go to doctors than insurance & pharma execs. Additionally, a friend worked as a drug salesman. He made crazy money - easily 200K/year - driving around, visiting doctors, giving 'em freebies & taking 'em to lunch. Then there are the costs of all those TV ads for the drug of the week.

    There are so many ways costs can be cut without any rationing whatsoever.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Simply not true. First - of course it isn't free. Second, the cost is spread over a larger group. Third, the admin costs are much lower (no insurance execs making millions off you). Fourth, if everyone is one one plan, that plan has huge clout with drug companies.

    Personally, I'd rather see the $ go to doctors than insurance & pharma execs. Additionally, a friend worked as a drug salesman. He made crazy money - easily 200K/year - driving around, visiting doctors, giving 'em freebies & taking 'em to lunch. Then there are the costs of all those TV ads for the drug of the week.

    There are so many ways costs can be cut without any rationing whatsoever.

    i'm not inherently against single payer. the US system was screwed up before the ACA, more screwed up by the ACA, and now since you can't get that genie back in the bottle you might as well go full single payer. sure, you're going to F over the doctors and drug companies and anyone else getting their paychecks from the industry. and sure you'll have rationing and long wait times for non-essential care... but you can at least cut the costs for everyone.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'm not inherently against single payer. the US system was screwed up before the ACA, more screwed up by the ACA, and now since you can't get that genie back in the bottle you might as well go full single payer. sure, you're going to F over the doctors and drug companies and anyone else getting their paychecks from the industry. and sure you'll have rationing and long wait times for non-essential care... but you can at least cut the costs for everyone.
    You do realize that "you" is "us", right? It's our mess, and you're right in the middle of it with us. If you have a better idea than single payer you'll have a ton of interest from all of the relevant parties to this discussion.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    You do realize that "you" is "us", right? It's our mess, and you're right in the middle of it with us. If you have a better idea than single payer you'll have a ton of interest from all of the relevant parties to this discussion.

    Jeff C


    the better idea is cutting the government out (they have been all up in the HC business for decades) and stimulating free market competition for goods and services.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    roflmao
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the better idea is cutting the government out (they have been all up in the HC business for decades) and stimulating free market competition for goods and services.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    roflmao
    Yeah - health insurance was perfect for everyone before the ACA, right?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Yeah - health insurance was perfect for everyone before the ACA, right?

    is that what i said, or is that exactly the opposite of what i just said? sheesh.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the better idea is cutting the government out (they have been all up in the HC business for decades) and stimulating free market competition for goods and services.
    We'll get back to you if we decide we need a simplistic, naive answer that completely ignores reality.

    Jeff C

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    is that what i said, or is that exactly the opposite of what i just said? sheesh.
    You said:

    the better idea is cutting the government out (they have been all up in the HC business for decades) and stimulating free market competition for goods and services.
    That's what health insurance in the US was before the ACA (other than medicare & medicaid).
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You said:



    That's what health insurance in the US was before the ACA (other than medicare & medicaid).
    i also said


    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'm not inherently against single payer. the US system was screwed up before the ACA, more screwed up by the ACA, and now since you can't get that genie back in the bottle you might as well go full single payer. sure, you're going to F over the doctors and drug companies and anyone else getting their paychecks from the industry. and sure you'll have rationing and long wait times for non-essential care... but you can at least cut the costs for everyone.
    and no, that's NOT what health insurance was before the ACA.

    hey there mr entrepreneur, got some capital and want to try your hand at a hospital business and get into the medical care business? NOPE sorry. the government says no, there's already a hospital in this area.

    hey there mr health consumer. want to shop for some health insurance? NOPE, sorry. you'll get BCBS and like it just like the other 95% of people in your state and don't bother looking in another state.


    not exactly free market at work. the government has been working it's way into the health industry for over 60 years. you should appreciate that as a progressive. it progressively got worse.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Why is America so "exceptional" in this, compared with every other industrialized country in the world?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Have any people here living in countries with horrible, evil, socialized medicine felt they have gotten inadequate care?

    Any of you lost your home and retirement paying for healthcare?

    I mean to ask for anecdotal evidence, too. No stats, no he said.

    Here, if you get sick, you can lose all your retirement savings and your home paying for healthcare.

    Peace,
    Robert

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i also said




    and no, that's NOT what health insurance was before the ACA.

    hey there mr entrepreneur, got some capital and want to try your hand at a hospital business and get into the medical care business? NOPE sorry. the government says no, there's already a hospital in this area.
    please point me to this provision of the aca
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Rob, here we bitch and moan about having to pay $4.00 to park in the hospital parking lot while we go in for our free-to-us regularly-scheduled blood work or cat-scan. I am a diabetic with a propensity for kidney stones, so I pay upwards of $24 - $28 per year. It is scandalous!
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    It can happen, Rob. But the typical such horrible story here is that someone has a very rare disease, and the meds aren't covered by the drug plans. Or the individual's hyper-specialized care has to happen in one of Canada's about 3 big cities, and what bankrupts people is the costs borne by family members who travel with and stay with their loved one. And yeah, substandard care sometimes happens too - as it does anywhere in the world. A medical error, or other kinds of incompetence - there's a reason why there's malpractice insurance. But Canada (and everywhere else) has universal health insurance exactly to make those stories the exceptions, rather than the primary cause of personal bankruptcy in the country.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Evil socialised medical care

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only way socialized "free" healthcare works is by rationing services to some extent...
    1) NOBODY is arguing for 'free' health care. All proposals have a cost, whether it's the price of insurance, or the tax needed to support the service.

    2) Health care is ALREADY rationed, and it has been, for decades. It's rationed by the ability to pay. Rich and poor get sick with the same frequency, but the rich can pay for it, and the poor are 'rationed'.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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