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Thread: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

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    Default “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    This was originally linked to in a blog post by the erudite forum member John Meachen. I think it deserves broader consideration given the regularity in which we 'debate' climate change on this forum.

    · Hydrocarbons supply over 80% of world energy: If all that were in the form of oil, the barrels would line up from Washington, D.C., to Los Angeles, and that entire line would grow by the height of the Washington Monument every week.· A 100x growth in the number of electric vehicles to 400 million on the roads by 2040 would displace 5% of global oil demand.
    · Renewable energy would have to expand 90-fold to replace global hydrocarbons in two decades. It took a half-century for global petroleum production to expand “only” 10-fold.
    · Replacing U.S. hydrocarbon-based electric generation over the next 30 years would require a construction program building out the grid at a rate 14-fold greater than any time in history.
    · Efficiency increases energy demand: since 1995, energy used per byte is down about 10,000-fold, but global data traffic rose about a million-fold; global electricity used for computing soared.
    · Since 1995, total world energy use rose by 50%, an amount equal to adding two entire United States’ worth of demand.
    · For security and reliability, an average of two months of national demand for hydrocarbons are in storage at any time. Today, barely two hours of national electricity demand can be stored in all utility-scale batteries plus all batteries in one million electric cars in America.
    · Batteries produced annually by the Tesla Gigafactory (the world’s biggest battery factory) can store three minutes worth of annual U.S. electric demand. And, to make enough batteries to store two-day’s worth of U.S. electricity demand would require 1,000 years of production by the Gigafactory.
    · Every $1 billion spent on data centers leads to $7 billion in electricity consumed over two decades. Global spending on data centers is more than $100 billion a year—and rising.
    · Over a 30-year period, $1 million worth of utility-scale solar or wind produces 40 million and 55 million kWh respectively. $1 million worth of shale well produces enough natural gas to generate 300 million kWh over 30 years.
    · It costs less than $0.50 to store a barrel of oil, or its equivalent in natural gas, but it costs $200 to store the equivalent energy of a barrel of oil in batteries.
    · Over 90% of America’s electricity, and 99% of the power used in transportation, comes from sources that can easily supply energy to the economy any time the market demands it.
    · Politicians and pundits like to invoke “moonshot” language. But transforming the energy economy is not like putting a few people on the moon a few times. It is like putting all of humanity on the moon—permanently.
    · The common cliché: an energy tech disruption will echo the digital tech disruption. But information-producing machines and energy-producing machines involve profoundly different physics; the cliché is sillier than comparing apples to bowling balls.
    · If solar power scaled like computer-tech, a single postage-stamp-size solar array would power the Empire State Building. That only happens in comic books.
    · If batteries scaled like digital tech, a battery the size of a book, costing three cents, could power a jetliner to Asia. That only happens in comic books.
    · If combustion engines scaled like computers, a car engine would shrink to the size of an ant and produce a thousand-fold more horsepower; actual ant-sized engines produce 100,000 times less power.
    · About 60 pounds of batteries are needed to store the energy equivalent of one pound of hydrocarbons. At least 100 pounds of materials are mined, moved and processed for every pound of battery fabricated.
    · Storing the energy equivalent of one barrel of oil, which weighs 300 pounds, requires 20,000 pounds of Tesla batteries ($200,000 worth).
    · Carrying the energy equivalent of the aviation fuel used by an aircraft flying to Asia would require $60 million worth of Tesla-type batteries weighing five times more than that aircraft.
    · It takes the energy-equivalent of 100 barrels of oil to fabricate a quantity of batteries that can store the energy equivalent of a single barrel of oil.
    · A battery-centric grid and car world means mining gigatons more of the earth to access lithium, copper, nickel, graphite, rare earths, cobalt, etc.—and using millions of tons of oil and coal both in mining and to fabricate metals and concrete. And in case you’re wondering, China dominates global battery production with its grid 70% coal-fueled. EVs using Chinese batteries will create more carbon-dioxide than saved by replacing oil-burning engines.
    Sobering realities indeed.

    john's op here
    My favourite commentator on American automotive matters devotes his weekly rant to the topic of electric cars this week http://www.autoextremist.com/ .Well worth a few minutes of your time.
    link to autoextremist blog here: http://www.autoextremist.com/
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    we r so fooked

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    however one might answer point by point, one simple fact in the list rules them all: efficiency gains lead to increased energy use.

    people are always going to use as much energy as they can afford. until there is a revolution in what it means to be a human being.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    however one might answer point by point, one simple fact in the list rules them all: efficiency gains lead to increased energy use.

    people are always going to use as much energy as they can afford. until there is a revolution in what it means to be a human being.
    And no politician will make fossil fuels less affordable.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    And no politician will make fossil fuels less affordable.
    right. and it's a dilemma that goes to the heart of meaningful "freedom".

    raising the cost of energy as a way to curb demand is perhaps the most regressive of all possible taxes, in the effect it has on lifestyle and standard of living.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    So fooked.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    I have wondered for some time if I have lived in the best of days, but then thats an accident of birth isn't it?

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    You want Moonshot language? Ramp up and spend an Apollo-like 4% of GDP on fusion for a decade => all problems solved, permanently.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    You want Moonshot language? Ramp up and spend an Apollo-like 4% of GDP on fusion for a decade => all problems solved, permanently.

    Andy
    Just a few dozen hydrogen bombs could make a major impact on worldwide energy demands....


    Ummmm
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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    people are always going to use as much energy as they can afford. until there is a revolution in what it means to be a human being.
    post 70s energy crisis the link between increased GDP & increased fossil fuel consumption decreased I believe. problem is it got reconnected.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    A few points to ponder..

    I realise that it is early days yet, but Solar Impulse 2 circumnavigated back in 2015 on solar power alone.
    I doubt that anybody who witnessed the Wright brothers at Kittyhawk in 1903 could have imagined squadrons of armed Sopwith Camels over France just fourteen years later, or could have foreseen the Lancaster or B17 bombers just another twenty years further on.

    Batteries won't have to be large capacity if constantly recharged by solar panels.

    Solar Impulse 2 Powerplant: 4 × electric motors, 4 x 21 kWh lithium-ion batteries (450 kg (990 lb)), providing 7.5 kW (10 HP) each


    Electric aero-motors are significantly lighter than jet or turbo-prop engines and have no reciprocating components only rotating ones.

    Harbour Air, North America’s largest seaplane airline, has partnered with motor developer MagniX to convert its fleet to electric propulsion. The companies plan to replace the radial piston engine in one of the airline’s de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beavers with the startup’s 750-hp electric motor. The “remotored” aircraft is expected to fly by the end of 2019 and will be used as the test aircraft for supplemental type certification (STC) of the conversion.
    https://aviationweek.com/future-aero...-air-thinks-so

    On the heels of its successful tests, MagniX estimates its technology will make commercial flights up to 1,000 miles possible by 2024. All-electric flights of up to 500 miles could be online as early as 2022. Those figures apply to smaller aircraft that can accommodate a few passengers.
    In fall 2019, magniX will debut a new 750HP engine, which it will pair with a Cessna 208 Caravan. In most configurations, that plane accommodates about six passengers not including pilots.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-lo...irplane-motor/

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    right. and it's a dilemma that goes to the heart of meaningful "freedom".

    raising the cost of energy as a way to curb demand is perhaps the most regressive of all possible taxes, in the effect it has on lifestyle and standard of living.
    I don’t get the regressive argument. By definition poor people pay more for basic needs and an improved transportation infrastructure can help ameliorate that. At one time most people didn’t own a car. Then wealthy people did. Then middle class. Then the wealthy and middle class had multiple cars and the poor would have a beater. Then gov’t decided for the good of society cars needed to be safer and pollute less and that raised the price of cars which one could argue was “regressive” but it benefitted society in general. It was an acceptable cost.

    Some can happen through a carbon tax and more specifically increased fuel tax for the greater benefit of society. Thinking we can go merrily on as though it’s 1950 is nonsense. At the very least these taxes can be used to improve our physical and human infrastructure and build some resilience in response to climate change.

    In other words if there’s a leak in the boat let’s do something other than just pump more.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    A few points to ponder..

    I realise that it is early days yet, but Solar Impulse 2 circumnavigated back in 2015 on solar power alone.
    I doubt that anybody who witnessed the Wright brothers at Kittyhawk in 1903 could have imagined squadrons of armed Sopwith Camels over France just fourteen years later, or could have foreseen the Lancaster or B17 bombers just another twenty years further on.

    Batteries won't have to be large capacity if constantly recharged by solar panels.

    Solar Impulse 2 Powerplant: 4 × electric motors, 4 x 21 kWh lithium-ion batteries (450 kg (990 lb)), providing 7.5 kW (10 HP) each
    early days yes, and solar impulse was awesome
    she transported one person weighing 160 pounds at a top speed of 43 miles per hour
    her wingspan was 50% great than that of a 747

    also worth noting they recharged her batteries at too great a rate at one point in flight damaging them and causing the aircraft to be grounded until the batteries were replaced

    still an impressive and stunningly beautiful aircraft
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    reality check. While the chart only goes to 2007 it’s worth looking at. With our greater consumption we don’t have better healthcare systems, it’s not like the ability to drive a 7500 lb vehicle to the store to get a six pack is essential to a happy existence or educated populace. Back when a truck had 150 hp and a sedan took 14 seconds to get to 60mph putting a man on the moon and building an insane nuclear arsenal worked out just fine. Being able to afford high fuel consumption isn’t an inalienable right.


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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I don’t get the regressive argument. By definition poor people pay more for basic needs and an improved transportation infrastructure can help ameliorate that. At one time most people didn’t own a car. Then wealthy people did. Then middle class. Then the wealthy and middle class had multiple cars and the poor would have a beater. Then gov’t decided for the good of society cars needed to be safer and pollute less and that raised the price of cars which one could argue was “regressive” but it benefitted society in general. It was an acceptable cost.

    Some can happen through a carbon tax and more specifically increased fuel tax for the greater benefit of society. Thinking we can go merrily on as though it’s 1950 is nonsense. At the very least these taxes can be used to improve our physical and human infrastructure and build some resilience in response to climate change.

    In other words if there’s a leak in the boat let’s do something other than just pump more.
    i'm not advocating anything, just trying to describe reality as i perceive it. what i mean about regressive is that, significantly changing the cost of energy moves the goal posts of wealth, or at least, what it means to be wealthy.

    by illustration, what does it mean to be a middle class westerner, under the current scheme of economy and consumption?

    it means that one can afford all the same basics that the richest person on the planet can afford: excess of food, climate control, personal vehicle, significant rest and relaxation, time for personal interest pursuits, vacations to tropical paradises, etc..

    even the work that middle class westerners do is...pretty damned easy, and heavily reliant on affordable energy that converts to productivity.

    see "picking strawberries" as an example of real labor of the type that "we" don't do. and frankly, few of us are even capable of it for any price, given both our morphology and psychological limitations.

    under the current scheme, being more than a middle class westerner is subject very quickly to the law of diminishing returns, in terms of how one lives, consumes, self-actualizes. this is my opinion, but i don't believe that my personal experience of the world-- and i am solidly a middle class westerner--is significantly poorer than that of a billionaire. Force the cost of energy out of my reach in a meaningful way (i.e. sufficient to battle climate change), and everything changes.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    And no politician will make fossil fuels less affordable.
    I think the "biofuel" subsidies are being targeted. If we want a green world, we just need to quit subsidizing big oil in all the ways we do. President Trump has started to talk about America no longer protecting fuel shipments to other countries. That would be a big start. But, no one can equal the accomplishment of former Vice President Dick Cheney, the "Green Vice President, when the incoming administration of President-elect George W. Bush held secret meetings with their Big Oil donors and rigged price increases in the US Gasoline market to recoup all their election donations and far more, crashing the US economy as only NeoCon destructive greed can and triggering a world wide recession and decrease in oil consumption:

    "The Bush Administration’s struggle to keep secret the workings of Cheney’s Energy Task Force has been ongoing since early in the President’s tenure. The General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, requested information in spring of 2001 about which industry executives and lobbyists the Task Force was meeting with in developing the Bush Administration’s energy plan. When Cheney refused disclosure, Congress was pressed to sue for the right to examine Task Force records, but lost. Later, amid political pressure building over improprieties regarding Enron’s colossal collapse, Cheney’s office released limited information revealing six Task Force meetings with Enron executives."

    https://www.projectcensored.org/8-se...come-to-light/

    NeoCons always get a double "win" when they start and lose wars. They accomplish their immediate goal of destroying America from the US Treasury resources they are able to divert to their war costs and friend's industries, killing America's job's with the increased tax and debt burdens and starving domestic infrastructure of the real nation that has always been their target, the USA and using fake news to justify bombing nations that want to be US markets and allies to create future chaos and more wars. THe oil policy if invading Iraq actually decreased the supply or oil, raising the cost more:

    "So President Bush’s decision to maintain our dependence on petroleum and to continue viewing access to oil as a top national security issue did not just set in train a series of events that resulted in the U.S.-led war in Iraq—a war that took a million lives, ran up over a trillion in U.S. national debt, led to the rise of ISIS, and forced millions of people from their homes, destabilizing the region. It also kept the United States, the world’s largest historical emitter of greenhouse gases, from reducing its greenhouse gas emissions. As a result, U.S. emissions increased until the Great Recession of 2008, with fossil fuel emissions relatively stable since then."

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/plane...r-the-climate/

    The end result was for the increased gasoline prices from Cheney monopolization and Cheney Neo Cons wars to actually slow the growth of US (and World) oil consumption to a degree that probably will never be rivaled again from any future government policy:

    "The surprising decline in US petroleum consumption

    Petroleum consumption in the US was lower in 2014 than it was in 1997, despite the fact that the economy grew almost 50% over this period. As illustrated in Figure 1, consumption rose steadily from 1984 through the early 2000s, peaking in 2004 before decreasing in conjunction with rising oil prices."

    And that is how the NeoCon Dick Cheney and his Big Oil cronies that were actually funding almost all the opposition to environmental reforms and climate change legislation became The Green Vice President...the NeoCon military socialists screw up everything they touch. Bunch of Trotskyites.
    "Song, song of the North
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    Get a college professor to vote like that"

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    early days yes, and solar impulse was awesome
    she transported one person weighing 160 pounds at a top speed of 43 miles per hour
    her wingspan was 50% great than that of a 747

    also worth noting they recharged her batteries at too great a rate at one point in flight damaging them and causing the aircraft to be grounded until the batteries were replaced

    still an impressive and stunningly beautiful aircraft
    And the Wright brothers flew how far on their first flight? ( 852 ft.)

    Things will change and hopefully not with war being the impetus. But the government subsudized, oil driven economies will have to take a real hit. It will take competition against the oil and coal interests to provide that and I am all for government support. Right now the moneyed interests have government in their pocket and are actively restricting alternative energy development.



    (Btw, the Solar Impulse battery problem was caused by overheating, and was fixed simply by just installing vents in the watertight containers)

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    and a sedan took 14 seconds to get to 60mph
    I'm not sure what's a reasonable 0-60 time for a sedan, but we proably agree that paying $15k so you can shave .6 seconds off the 0-60 and get it to 2.4 seconds isn't saving the planet.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    people are always going to use as much energy as they can afford.
    Not just energy, but every resource. The entire earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    . . . until there is a revolution in what it means to be a human being.
    Yep. You can put up fences and jack up the price . . . for a while.

    Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites...Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    . Force the cost of energy out of my reach in a meaningful way (i.e. sufficient to battle climate change), and everything changes.
    Somewhere between making overconsumption attractive and suffocating our economy is a huge range of possibilities. Our civilization is on an irrevocable path but that doesn’t narrow our choices in dealing with it to two binary extremes.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    While everyone is hyper-concentrated on energy as the big issue facing civilization, I'd argue that it's really only #2.

    What's #1? Finding a way to efficiently recycle plastic. Currently, less than 10% of all plastic is recycled... and it's fouling the planet, possibly worse than greenhouse gases.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    when we run out of oil we’ll harvest the plastic for fuel
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Ralph Bakshi saw it coming.

    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    I'm not sure what's a reasonable 0-60 time for a sedan, but we proably agree that paying $15k so you can shave .6 seconds off the 0-60 and get it to 2.4 seconds isn't saving the planet.
    That’s the joke about very high performance ev’s as some kind of alternative. They’re an alternative to expensive high performance vehicles but if your goal is less energy consumption you don’t do that building a motor and battery to accelerate 5000lbs in a few seconds.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I have wondered for some time if I have lived in the best of days, but then thats an accident of birth isn't it?
    I'll admit to the same thought. My accidents of birth: being a white Male, born to an educated couple, in the second half of the 20th century.
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    That’s the joke about very high performance ev’s as some kind of alternative. They’re an alternative to expensive high performance vehicles but if your goal is less energy consumption you don’t do that building a motor and battery to accelerate 5000lbs in a few seconds.
    Since, by their very nature, electric motors deliver maximum torque at 0 rpm, there's not much you can do... EV's are bound to have exceptional acceleration. Manufacturers COULD govern the controllers to reduce initial torque, which would save on the battery.....

    ....but let's face it, many people will buy an EV for the sake of extreme acceleration.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Since, by their very nature, electric motors deliver maximum torque at 0 rpm, there's not much you can do... EV's are bound to have exceptional acceleration. Manufacturers COULD govern the controllers to reduce initial torque, which would save on the battery.....

    ....but let's face it, many people will buy an EV for the sake of extreme acceleration.
    That’s what makes hybrids such an attractive option. Toyota Rav4 weighs almost 4000 lbs and gets 40mpg around town. More than adequate acceleration, 0-60 in 7.5 sec.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Somewhere between making overconsumption attractive and suffocating our economy is a huge range of possibilities. Our civilization is on an irrevocable path but that doesn’t narrow our choices in dealing with it to two binary extremes.
    i'm not advocating binary extremes under our current scheme of individual liberty. i am in favor of any and all moves we might make collectively to use fewer resources.

    i am in favor of fuel taxes to pay for new and improved energy infrastructure that will more efficiently use energy. but i am aware that every increase in efficiency to date has led to greater prosperity and increased use of resources.

    the o.p. mentions the great cost of battery production, and in a post below you mention the rav4 hybrid.

    these choices and their consequences do put us on the horns of many dilemmas. naturally, not all paths are equal but they may lead to the same place.

    my perception is that, indeed, we are faced with a binary choice: a) proceed as we are with our perceptions of self and celebration of individual liberty, relying on technology (like the tantalizing concept of "fusion", for instance) to save us, or b) revolutionize our way of thinking about our selves and our freedoms, accepting something akin to the chinese model for population reduction, in which every person has their total consumption legally limited.

    i don't think "b" is possible anytime soon.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    So, carbon capture is needed no matter how hard we work on clean energy.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Where is sky blue and his perpetual motion machine when you need him. I think everyone should be allocated a certain amount of energy don't use all yours sell it to a rich guy or a factory not perfect but a start.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    Where is sky blue and his perpetual motion machine when you need him. I think everyone should be allocated a certain amount of energy don't use all yours sell it to a rich guy or a factory not perfect but a start.
    We already tried to pass cap & trade, it got defeated. Things will be pretty bad by the time we actually have a policy for this problem.

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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    when we run out of oil we’ll harvest the plastic for fuel
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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    As I see it the biggest problem facing humanity is humanity - too much of it. Population growth is the problem. The energy consumption graph posted above is per capita. So even though the per capita energy consumption is relatively flat for the US since about 1970, the total energy consumption has increased about 60% simply due to population growth. We can solve that problem by limiting family size to one child for a couple of generations.

  34. #34
    Join Date
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    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    The OP seems to gloss over the fact that a barrel of oil can be used only once but a battery can be recharged many times.

    We have to use less energy overall and put a focus everywhere on efficiency.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    6,400

    Default Re: “The New Energy Economy: An Exercise in Magical Thinking”

    Nobody has ever accused me of being erudite before and I might dispute the description.I did wonder whether anybody followed the link I originally provided and clearly Paul did.I highly recommend keeping an eye on the Autoextremist website,not just for trenchant comment, the photography content is usually pretty good too.

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