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Thread: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

  1. #1
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    Question Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Hey folks,

    I forgot I had one of these contraptions hidden away...



    I can strap a decent motor on it, rather than drill drive it, 1/4 HP, 1/3HP... 3HP Briggs and Stratton...

    Anyway, with some jigging, rigging, and stands and so on, what are my chances of getting reasonable cedar strip out of fence and deck 2x4s or 2x6s etc. ???

    Theoretically it cuts 4" deep I heard, so 1/2" cedar planks off a 4x4 might be on the table too. (Only cedar I'm thinking, not white oak)

    I do have a table saw with a 10" blade I can manage to rip 4" stock on, but the kerf is a bit wide and for thin strip, I'd end up with as much wood in dust as strip, and I wouldn't actually trust it on thinner than half inch.

    So anyone manage to use one of these things for anything useful, or have an equivalent "Junior's first bandsaw" that ripping strips or similar work was done on?



    Plyboy
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I'd use the table saw with a thin-kerf blade first. Save that as a substitute for a saber saw.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    You can get some very thin kerf blades for 7 1/4 inch circular saws that will fit on your tablesaw, and even thinner for the smaller cordless circular saws. The cordless ones may have a smaller arbor than your 10 inch table saw, I don't know.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    The time you save using a thin kerf on the table saw is worth all that extra material that is wasted.
    In reality,bandsawn surfaces need to be cleaned up by planing, where sawn surfaces don't,so your material gets wasted anyway.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I am skeptical that you can get that little bandsaw setup properly to do decent re-sawing, even in soft cedar. The motor's one factor but so are the blade guides, blade tensioning method, and table stability. You might get it to work, but with only a lot of fiddling. Better to invest in a more substantial machine, I think.

    Unlike others, I am not so keen on ripping thick stock on a table saw. I don't like the process of cutting half depth, flipping the stock over, then completing the cut. To me, that's just pushing the saw to it's limits and twice the opportunity for things to go astray. I prefer to re-saw using a bandsaw... any day, any wood, and any project.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Many make or break factors. You need a sharp blade, rigid blade guides that won't deflect under load, sufficient power to drive the blade, and a means of supporting the wood and guiding it past the blade to give you consistent thickness and safe control. You may still need infeed/outfeed support with a table saw. I can imagine a long table built around the bandsaw to support your work but the rigidity of the saw itself is another matter. I once ripped cedar strips out of 20' boards with a small but sturdy bandsaw and a helper to support the overhanging ends. Surface was rough and the strip thickness varied in spots. I should have used a better system to feed the boards but the other limiting factor was the cutting speed. I think it is worth a try. Many people seem to be converting portable metal bandsaws to vertical benchtop use with success. You only have time and wood to lose, no fingers please.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    That's a very light duty saw designed for low hp/short duty cycle cutting. If you manage to get it set up I wouldn't expect it to last very long working hard with long run times. Oth if you can do it cheaply and don't mind sacrificing the saw....drive it till the doors fall off.
    Last edited by cathouse willy; 07-09-2019 at 01:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Ripped the staves for my mast from 2x4 spruce with a bandsaw because it was the only saw in the shop with 16ft on each side of the blade, two teeth per inch made the cutting fast but clean up with the planer was necessary. If not for the length I would have used the table saw and rigged the power feed or lots of hold downs and push sticks, AB2BF415-5C28-42CA-A5FE-430AFD4D5B9E.jpg or me a much more comfortable proposition.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    You might find that the 7 1/4" thin kerf blade tends to wander a bit on thick stock if the rip fence is even slightly off. I would do the deep cuts with a 10" blade and use a good thin kerf 7 1/4" for cuts under 1". The smaller diameter diameter and thinner kerf both require less torque, so you save wear and tear on the motor and save a lot of wood.

    The entire boat has to be sanded fair after stripping, so the finish isn't as important as a uniform thickness, especially for bead and cove.

    As Gib said, the cordless saws have a smaller arbor hole, so they don't fit on a corded saw. Reaming out the hole might work, but....

    The bandsaw is a nice conversation piece. It can cut 4" thick stock, but can doesn't mean you should.
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Just got a Laguna 14/12 for the shop. I'm blown away how accurate this is, and powerful. IMG_3926.jpg Had to save up for it with the kids in college. Wish I had got it years ago.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I second everyone who said a thin kerf blade on a tablesaw.
    And don't worry about getting an extremely thin blade.
    Do worry about if the blade is straight - if not it destroys all the good things that have been said.

    The cost of the wood is very minimal compared to everything else you will spend - especially time.

    WHAT are you going to build???
    What wood?

    Pictures?

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I am skeptical that you can get that little bandsaw setup properly to do decent re-sawing, even in soft cedar. The motor's one factor but so are the blade guides, blade tensioning method, and table stability. You might get it to work, but with only a lot of fiddling. Better to invest in a more substantial machine, I think.

    Unlike others, I am not so keen on ripping thick stock on a table saw. I don't like the process of cutting half depth, flipping the stock over, then completing the cut. To me, that's just pushing the saw to it's limits and twice the opportunity for things to go astray. I prefer to re-saw using a bandsaw... any day, any wood, and any project.

    Jeff
    Agreed. Too many opportunities for failure, damage to the stock and the saw. Whenever the top of the blade is buried in the stock the chips fill the gullets and creat a lot of friction and heat. This can warp the blade and start throwing things around the shop, stressing the arbor bearings and generally beating up the saw.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    i commonly use a Freud Diablo 7.25" blade on my el cheapo 10" folding table saw

    the thin kerf and smaller diameter blade whirrs up quite nicely and does me a real well job of ripping

    the smaller diameter makes the saw think it is more powerful

    Amazon has a good selection and th'aint expensive

    this one is like the one i'm currently using and it thinks cedar is like warm butter...

    https://www.amazon.com/D0724X-Diablo...gateway&sr=8-4

    sorry i don't have an actual pic

    my barn/shop is 36 miles up the road

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I completely disagree about the issue of ripping "thick" stock on a table saw.
    For thick stock, use a 10" blade, rip 1/2 way thru or more, flip and rip the other side.
    You do need a squared board unless you are willing to waste wood from inaccurate cuts.

    For safety, the blade is completely buried in the wood. No exposed blade to grab unwary hands.
    Just use normal commonsense - don't force the wood, let the blade do the cutting.

    I've done it a hundred times, never any indication of a problem.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    The 7 1/4 blade will go right thru 1 1/2 inch cedar no problem. Rip out 7/8 x 1 1/2, thickness plane to 3/4 x 1 1/2 then rip out strips at a heavy 1/4. If you're going to b&c it will go much better for you if you first thickness to a uniform 1/4. You could have the job successfully completed that way long before you can even get the bandsaw working, and you'll get a much better job of it in the bargain.

    If the material is knotty you can cut out the knots and scarf the 7/8 stuff to full length before thicknessing to 3/4.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    So Plyboy, have you bought the wood yet? If so how thick is is it? We can delve deeply into the philosophy of depth of cut and board flipping, but if we aren't talking 4x4s, there isn't a lot to say. I would flip a 4x4, but it for me, it is a waste of time for 2x stock. Your call.

    For some, grain orientation is important. I find that flat sawn strips can be difficult to sand fair and I don't like the look. Nick talks about cutting and turning to control grain orientation in the video below. I would not get excited about a fine finish on the edge of a strip that will be cut away when you make cove and bead. Nick is a little too finicky for me, but there is good information here:
    and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl1FnHtpY88
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Thanks everyone for the advice and experience so far. I had been meaning to keep up with comments post by post, but somehow this thread has had sort of a jinx on it, open it, start arranging my thoughts and bam, disturbed, interrupted, bothered, windows update ate one draft also.


    So first, I haven't got a boat design in mind, or got the wood. I was looking to expand the range of designs I might consider, commensurate with what wood is locally sold at non-exorbitant prices. I was somewhat surprised to note that western red cedar is about comparable to the good SPF dimensional lumber, but of course is in all the wrong sizes for boat building. It's still 3x the price of utility grade studs, but you can only actually use that for something if you wanna spend all afternoon finding the 5 good pieces per skidfull. This is from the usual suspects, Lowes/Home Depot etc. However I did find yesterday that I could get Douglas Fir from stock or cut to order by a place in pickup range, woodshedlumber.com though the pricing looks a bit steep, when I'm ready to do that 40ft passagemaker trawler yacht heirloom boat for the ages I'll hit them up first though. Right now I guess I might only pick up some marine ply off them for transoms and maybe if anything needs a solid keel or stem I'd sharpen up my adze and go get a decent piece off them.


    In the nearer term, I might be most likely to want to do a cedar strip canoe, as my wife keeps dropping heavy canoe hints. In the medium term, cedar plank could be suitable for something in the 16-25ft range for camping/cruising.




    Saws saws saws...


    I have a bit of a random collection, bought at yard sales for whatever I had in my pocket mostly, listing the whole dang lot now, so it can be seen what I can dedicate to what without comprimising capability to do X.


    i) larger ancient brute table saw. Belt drive, no safety features apart from looking so thoroughly dangerous that the makers thought that was proably fair enough warning to be careful. Got a 1HP motor on it IIRC, sucks 13A so either underated or inefficient. (Guess it's most like a contractor saw setup rather than benchtop) Pain in the ass to adjust needs tapping with a hammer sometimes. However, when set up with the ~10" rip blade it does rip clean to 4" on SPF lumber, but thinner than 1/2 it kicks up the stock and marks it. Ripping with a 7.5" blade was dissappointing, but many variables, poor setup, bad blades etc... anyway, general lack of sophistication led me to grab....
    ii) 7.5" benchtop table saw with integral motor, middling quality, forgot brand, all settings a lot tighter and easier than above, will take dado set etc. Seems to cut smoothly, but have barely used it.
    iii) handheld 7.5" circular saw Black and Decker silver color alloy probably 1960s model. Got it for less than half a coffee in change, because bearings were "loud" and holy crap they were, thing was barely turning, flushed them with WD-40 and fed them moly grease and the damn thing ran better and better every time I used it. Keep it with a general purp crosscut/rip blade in. It's the one I grab as most convenient to do a quick chop. Though lean on it too much and the sole flexes and can push out of square easy. Doubts about it's bearing life made me grab...
    iv) circular saw 7.5" handheld black and decker 70s? "commercial" yellow beige beast, got an additional front handgrip. HEAVY, haven't found anything it won't cut yet but that's in reason. Last had it set up for cutting formica/particle board counter tops to clean edge.


    All those are standard 5/8 arbor I think.


    v) handheld jigsaw, I want to call it a B&D because very similar to B&Ds but I think it's something else like porter cable or westinghouse. 60s looking, silver color alloy, flaky switch, worn moving parts so the blade can slop, keep it with a hacksaw blade in.
    vi)Handheld jigsaw B&D 70s yellow beige. Doesn't seem as powerful as above, but more accurate, just have to cut slow. Gets used for the tight curves and holes, keep a wood blade in it.
    vii) old, home/shop made scroll saw, huge, overbuilt, could probably cut jigsaw puzzles out of 1/4" steel. Deep throat, maybe just the thing for cutting CLC design patterns out of whole sheet LOL. Rather buried at the moment as it's primary atribute is that it looks like something solid to stack things on :-/ ...
    viii) modern scroll saw, got in a package deal with ii) works, would like to be using it more often for crafty stuff. Probable WB use limited to canoe frames.
    ix) Saber saw, the definite unbargain, very flogged condition or bad quality, paid sig fraction of a new one, squeals loudly, keep wanting to replace it every time I use it but I can and do use anything else. Relegated to a green wood blade and used for pruning once in a while.
    x) circular saw attachment for drill 3", IDK why I bought it really, was cheap, looked like it was good for tight spaces. Not sure where it is right now. Think the blades might be unique. Might actually be better than jigsaw for smooth curves in thin ply.
    xi) Bandsaw attachment for drill, that thing in the picture 1st post. Also have new blade material, needs welding up. Think it's got a stock general purpose wood/nonferrous blade in, while spare blade is wood.






    So in consideration of all your input so far, what I think I'm gonna do is get a 7.5" diablo thin kerf blade for ii) for strip and leave the 10" blade I've got in i) and just use for larger stock. Then I might be thinking of rigging iv) up in a radial-arm-saw/chop-saw/mitre-saw kind of setup with a medium tooth crosscut blade, so I can leave the table saws set up for ripping mostly.


    I was looking at a beardy dude type woodshop supplier at their thin kerf blades, they wanted over a hundred a pop for them, and seemed to basically be saying "Well we'll sell you this piece of crap, but don't be surprised if it wobbles and vibrates like hell so for extra money will sell you a stiffener" so then you've converted your 10" into a 7.5" effectively, because you lose cutting depth. They don't even seem to be coated, tipped or anything. I had had blade conversations at home depot etc in the past but they're as productive as you might think with a "if we don't carry it, you don't need it" mindset.


    I've tried the half depth rip with a 7.5" and managed to get one decent result out of 3 tries I think it was. Was running cheap 2x4 stud for testing before I put the better stuff through.


    I do wonder if my i) could be improved a tad with a custom inset, the hole is a bit wide, may be part of the problem with it chewing/kicking thin stock.


    I'd like the bandsaw to earn it's keep in any case, it's apparent that it's likely to need improvements in blade stability. I'm thinking I could confine the blade between two skate bearings (They're small, high speed and I've got some) then maybe see if it's gonna leave ridges/marks against something slid through against a fence (To keep from blaming shaky hands lol)


    About grinding to a halt here, it's 10 posts in one as it is...
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    In a former lifetime a friend and I built a pair of "stripper" canoes. This was early days when they were a hot new way to build canoes, and a carbon copy of a Grumman was considered a worthy shape. (we took the time to design something easier to paddle) Anyway, strips for the first were ripped using a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. We were frustrated when many strips suffered from having a "wavy" kerf. Strips for the second were cut using a Craftsman 8" table saw and were much more satisfactory. The point is, the right tool makes a huge difference.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Plyboy,

    While looking for a link to the redwood canoe in response to Nicholas, I found Nick Schade's book, Building Strip Plank Boats. http://www.woodenboats.lt/Knygos%20p...ed%20Boats.pdf

    You need to try a garage sale. Selling all of those tools and starting over might be a good idea. You might find the brute saw on the http://vintagemachinery.org/ web site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    In a former lifetime a friend and I built a pair of "stripper" canoes. This was early days when they were a hot new way to build canoes, and a carbon copy of a Grumman was considered a worthy shape. (we took the time to design something easier to paddle) Anyway, strips for the first were ripped using a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. We were frustrated when many strips suffered from having a "wavy" kerf. Strips for the second were cut using a Craftsman 8" table saw and were much more satisfactory. The point is, the right tool makes a huge difference.
    Sounds like the Popular Science redwood canoe from 1964. I saw the canoe http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/RedwoodCanoe and came to the same conclusion. Why would you do all that work to build a %#@& Grumman canoe? I kept it for 10 years until I found Manley's book about Rushton's canoes and built a Saranac Laker and a UGO using the Pop Sci instructions. Cutting strips on a ca. 1960 Craftsman 10" belt drive saw with a lousy rip fence was a challenge. Parallel to the blade was the one position the fence refused to go.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    One issue I have not seen mentioned in this thread is dust collection. If you are going to be stripping Western Red Cedar you need a saw that can be hooked up to a serious dust collector or you will be risking lung damage. Just wearing a respirator is not enough.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Popular Science magazine! That was it! Thanks MN Dave!

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Plyboy,

    While looking for a link to the redwood canoe in response to Nicholas, I found Nick Schade's book, Building Strip Plank Boats. http://www.woodenboats.lt/Knygos%20p...ed%20Boats.pdf

    You need to try a garage sale. Selling all of those tools and starting over might be a good idea. You might find the brute saw on the http://vintagemachinery.org/ web site.

    Sounds like the Popular Science redwood canoe from 1964. I saw the canoe http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/RedwoodCanoe and came to the same conclusion. Why would you do all that work to build a %#@& Grumman canoe? I kept it for 10 years until I found Manley's book about Rushton's canoes and built a Saranac Laker and a UGO using the Pop Sci instructions. Cutting strips on a ca. 1960 Craftsman 10" belt drive saw with a lousy rip fence was a challenge. Parallel to the blade was the one position the fence refused to go.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    For longer length boards a circular saw with an auxiliary base that has a fence on it is the way to go. Robb White’s setup was great. Nick Shade does something similar hear:


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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    ^ you might have thought he'd slide those boards to the right on his sawhorses and eliminate tripping hazards before doing that 3,472 times. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ^ you might have thought he'd slide those boards to the right on his sawhorses and eliminate tripping hazards before doing that 3,472 times. . .
    Where’s the challenge in that?

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Where’s the challenge in that?
    Good point, I've got some tires I could lay out like those combat assault courses, may as well get your training in...
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Palmer View Post
    I'd use the table saw with a thin-kerf blade first. Save that as a substitute for a saber saw.
    +1. You can use the Freud Diablo 7-1/4" blades for ripping cedar to good effect on a 10" table saw. The carbides on the blade are .0625" thick. With that diameter, there is just enough exposure to cut a 1" thick board and no more. When I was teaching a cedar strip canoe building class, I had a spacer made to go between a pair of the Freud blades (and had a few mylar shims) so that I could gang-rip the strips. Big time saver if you're going to do a bunch.

    (No interest in the Freud business.)
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    If you can find one the thin kerf Matsu****a blades that the late Forum member Dave Carnell recommended are excellent.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Really?! The forum software won’t let me write Matsu****a? Oy.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Matsusheeta

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    +1. You can use the Freud Diablo 7-1/4" blades for ripping cedar to good effect on a 10" table saw. The carbides on the blade are .0625" thick. With that diameter, there is just enough exposure to cut a 1" thick board and no more. When I was teaching a cedar strip canoe building class, I had a spacer made to go between a pair of the Freud blades (and had a few mylar shims) so that I could gang-rip the strips. Big time saver if you're going to do a bunch.

    (No interest in the Freud business.)
    There are off the shelf extra thick steel fender washers that might be usable.

    https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-washers Check either 1/2 or 5/8 screw size and 3" diameter.
    Low Carbon Zinc Finish Steel Extra Thick (1/4") ~$3.50 each.
    1/2" x 3.000" OD Inner Diameter 0.562" needs to be drilled or reamed to 5/8"
    5/8 x 3 Inner Diameter 0.688" is a bit sloppy, but could be shimmed?

    Washer dimensional tolerances are incredibly sloppy, so you need to check the thickness to ensure a matched set. The thickness on the McMaster site is 0.235"-0.265". The saw teeth are thicker than the blade, so the spacers between the blades will be thicker than the distance between the teeth. (A .250" inch spacer might make a .240" strip. Guesswork, not exact.)

    Disclaimers (No interest in the Freud business.)Too late anyway, Bosch already bought them. McMaster has easy to find information, other than that, no interest.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    Just buy a blade, check it for straightness and if it wobbles, take it back and get another one.

    Every product ever sold has variations in dimensions between the same parts. Including stabilizers.

    And a stabilizer may not straighten out a specific blade's wobble, even if the stabilizer is perfect.

    Don't ever buy an opened blade from a big box store - I saw the one I returned back on the shelf all taped up the next day.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I used a thin kerf blade on my circular saw with a little table saw type jig that fastened to the bottom of it. Essentially built a rip fence to the bottom of my circular saw with a piece of ply and a straight 3/4x3/4 stick 18" long. Worked a treat.
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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I think I once read here on the WBF about a guy who clamped a vice grip plier to the base of his circular saw and that was his "rip fence" for cutting strips for a canoe. Just saying.

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    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I suggest you use a japanese style ripping saw. A hand saw.
    They have the thinnest kerf of any saw I know of and cost $20 (about).
    They will also cut a straight line with a little care.

    Fairly tedious, but if you are going to consider some of the very cheap and ridiculous alternatives you might as well go whole hog.
    You can also get brownie points for using hand tools.

    Table saw and a reasonably thin blade - not the thinnest that can be made - is the realistic first choice. Even a cheap fence can be set up to work if you cut all the strips at once.
    The wood is usually a smaller portion of the overall cost.

    For the kayaks I have made:
    Wood - $75 at home depot. WRC, Walnut, Maple
    Epoxy - $150 - West (+brushes, rollers/covers, cleanup)
    Cloth - $150 - mail order.
    Paddle - $100 - bought but you can buy cheaper
    Foot pegs - $40
    Seat - $50 to $150.
    Miscellaneous - $50 - 100
    Cover for storage ???
    Roof rack - $100 (craigslist) or $400 new.
    Varnish - $30

    So the wood wasted in the kerf doesn't matter.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Brielle, NJ USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: Minimal saw for stripping cedar?

    I built a cedar strip kayak following Nick Schade's design & book. I will add a couple of things to the discussion:

    Use the table saw for accuracy, get a thin kerf blade, and use feather boards to hold the wood tight against the fence. Look up the youtube videos on ripping thin stock. There's several good jigs out there that will make it much safer.

    That wonderful cedar smell ??? That is cedar's natural insecticide you are smelling. Make sure to wear a respirator and have good dust collection. Cedar dust will give you the sore throat from hell.

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