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Thread: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

  1. #281
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    It's also nice to hear someone separate out the achievement from the man.
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but I also don't understand what I've been hearing. There seems to be a "love to hate Musk" movement I keep encountering and I don't see what the basis is. His Space-X company is giving NASA new capabilities. He's now talking about a high-speed tunnel transport that will run across the country at speeds faster than commercial jets. I've not heard anything bad about his photovoltaics for home application. He seems to put good ideas into practice and I like his track record.

    Why do people hate this guy?

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    I can imagine that would bump up the complexity quite a bit.

    Jeff C
    Yep - but also can significantly improve the miles/charge - especially in city driving. Obviously it won't have much impact on interstate driving.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Why do people hate this guy?
    why do fanbois such as yourself keep erecting this strawman about musk and tesla?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I have to change an earlier comment to Joe. About an hour ago I saw my first Tesla. It was a model S. It came in to the marina to pick up some people who had arrived by boat. The car has Pennsylvania plates. It was nice to see some rich, energy conscious people. I am sure that the 150+ foot motor yacht they arrived on was electric charged only by solar panels too. They were likely driving in the Tesla to their estate where they had their own private supercharger. The closest public Supercharger is 55 miles away according to the Tesla web site.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    why do fanbois such as yourself keep erecting this strawman about musk and tesla?
    "Fanbois" is a derogatory term and what straw man? The guy is an innovator and lots of people use him to detract from his work.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    the straw mam is that anything but glowing admiration for the man and the marque is hate
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    He seems to put good ideas into practice and I like his track record.
    thats funny.

    musks like Trump - a polarizing huckster who's conflated himself and "his mission" and made everything into an up/down vote on it and him. If you don't support Tesla 100% you are against EVs/everything else (see: stupid comments directed at me repeatedly in this thread).

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I'm gonna be pretty critical of ANYONE who either describes themselves as 'self-made'... OR, anyone who behaves like that. I've seen Musk in numerous interviews, and while he has done some significant things, he clearly thinks they're more than merely significant, in his own mind.

    There is no such thing as a 'self-made' man. We are ALL a product of innumerable influences of people that surrounded us as we grew, as well as circumstances and chance.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  9. #289
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I've not seen one of these before! Is this the new high-performance Tesla I've been reading about?
    Nope thats the FIRST Tesla, the ORIGINAL Tesla Roadster - cool hun, kinda lets ya know they have been around for a little longer than most give Elon credit for

    The Tesla Roadster is a battery electric vehicle (BEV) sports car, based on the Lotus Elise chassis, that was produced by the electric car firm Tesla Motors (nowTesla, Inc.) in California from 2008 to 2012.
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Nope thats the FIRST Tesla, the ORIGINAL Tesla Roadster - cool hun, kinda lets ya know they have been around for a little longer than most give Elon credit for

    The Tesla Roadster is a battery electric vehicle (BEV) sports car, based on the Lotus Elise chassis, that was produced by the electric car firm Tesla Motors (nowTesla, Inc.) in California from 2008 to 2012.
    That is the one that, in an act of monumental egotism and hubris, was blasted into space on one of Musk's rockets. A perfect example of Musk's 'God' complex.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I'm more along the lines of 'that's showmanship/marketing'. I thought - 'well done'.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    been around a while!
    a whole decade. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    thats funny.

    musks like Trump - a polarizing huckster who's conflated himself and "his mission" and made everything into an up/down vote on it and him. If you don't support Tesla 100% you are against EVs/everything else (see: stupid comments directed at me repeatedly in this thread).
    Yeaaaah I get the Musk hate and yea he's a little he's a bit of a tool and his stammering self importance is off putting ( kinda like Zuckerberg I suspect a little aspergers in his social cues ) But to compare him to Trump is a bit off the mark. For whatever annoyances Elon has, his achievements and dare I say brilliance is undeniable

    At the age of 17, in 1989, Elon Musk moved to Canada to attend Queen's University, avoiding mandatory service in the South African military. He left in 1992 to study business and physics at the University of Pennsylvania, and graduated with an undergraduate degree in economics and stayed for a second bachelor's degree in physics.
    After leaving Penn, Elon Musk headed to Stanford University in California to pursue a PhD in energy physics. However, his move coincided with the Internet boom, and he dropped out of Stanford after just two days to become a part of it, launching his first company, Zip2 Corporation

    Followed by:

    X.com and PayPal
    SpaceX
    Tesla
    SolarCity
    Gigafactory
    Hyperloop
    OpenAI
    Neuralink
    The Boring Company


    About the only thing Elon & Donald have in common is they both went to University of Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    That is the one that, in an act of monumental egotism and hubris, was blasted into space on one of Musk's rockets. A perfect example of Musk's 'God' complex.
    Folks would much rather see hubris framed in a large social effort, even when it’s just as self-serving to the human ego when an individual displays it. We build pyramids just like the ancient Egyptians, Musk’s is flying around Mars and the USA has fantastic and ineffective ABM systems.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    been around a while!
    a whole decade. . .
    Longer than DMC DeLorean Model years 1981–1983
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    In today's news: Tesla to up production, substantially.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    That is the one that, in an act of monumental egotism and hubris, was blasted into space on one of Musk's rockets. A perfect example of Musk's 'God' complex.
    This is precisely the negativity people see.

    When I saw what he'd done, I laughed & said "Good one!". Imagine someone 500 years from now finding it. It'll be a WTF moment for sure.

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Again - it's my understanding it's 'the same' battery - simply programmed differently for range/output.
    The battery specs for standard, plus and long range are 50, 62 and 75 kWh, and the long range car is heavier, so I think they do have different batteries.

    OK, carry on re: Musk's personality....

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    This is precisely the negativity people see.

    When I saw what he'd done, I laughed & said "Good one!". Imagine someone 500 years from now finding it. It'll be a WTF moment for sure.

    I read somewhere that it’ll be a cloud of broken down plastics and fibers after a decade as all that stuff wasn’t designed for all the types of radiation it’ll be exposed to.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon...Tesla_Roadster

    Musk had originally speculated that the car could drift in space for a billion years.[13] According to chemist William Carroll, solar radiation, cosmic radiation, and micrometeoroid impacts will structurally damage the car over time. Radiation will eventually break down any material with carbon–carbon bonds, including carbon fiber parts. Tires, paint, plastic and leather might last only about a year, while carbon fiber parts will last considerably longer. Eventually, only the aluminum frame, inert metals, and glass not shattered by meteoroids will remain.[77]
    Last edited by LeeG; 07-10-2019 at 01:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    One other reason to get a Model 3, besides the cost, performance, convenience, and environmental advantages over ICE:

    Tesla Model 3 gets perfect 5-star safety rating in every category from NHTSA https://electrek.co/2018/09/20/tesla...-rating-nhtsa/

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Ok, the car in space, brilliant! Marketing genius.

    As for the rest, once again I'd say that Telsa is notable for its battery and associated hardware management systems. These are what make the Tesla stand out in the areas of range and charging. For now, it's all about the battery, but that won't last. The 21700 cell that Tesla co-developed with Panasonic and uses to build its battery packs is not proprietary technology. Panasonic has already signed a deal with Toyota that will go into production in 2020, so that cat is out of the bag.

    As far as the performance goes, anyone can make an electric car go fast, so I wouldn't lean too hard on that claim. Despite the fact that Tesla builds its motors in-house they don't hold any technical advantage in this area that I can see.

    What Musk is doing very well is using the Steve Jobs playbook for brand building. The customer loyalty/fanbase of Tesla is second only to Apple.
    Nosce te ipsum

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Nope thats the FIRST Tesla, the ORIGINAL Tesla Roadster - cool hun, kinda lets ya know they have been around for a little longer than most give Elon credit for

    The Tesla Roadster is a battery electric vehicle (BEV) sports car, based on the Lotus Elise chassis, that was produced by the electric car firm Tesla Motors (nowTesla, Inc.) in California from 2008 to 2012.
    Yeah - you kinda have to give Martin Eberhard credit for some of that.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post

    The battery specs for standard, plus and long range are 50, 62 and 75 kWh, and the long range car is heavier, so I think they do have different batteries.

    OK, carry on re: Musk's personality....
    The same individual cells, yes, but there are more of them in the longer range battery packs. You can get more range from the smaller battery packs by adjusting parameters via software.
    Nosce te ipsum

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    The Roadster was not an Original car, it was a conversion. So even though it's a very cool car, I don't know that it can really be held up as a solo triumph of Tesla.
    Nosce te ipsum

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Like I said, ten years from now this thread will make an interesting read. There seems to be a market for electric vehicles. That 'demand' will fuel, pardon the pun, more innovation. Technology has a tendency to move more quickly that we realize.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I read somewhere that it’ll be a cloud of broken down plastics and fibers after a decade as all that stuff wasn’t designed for all the types of radiation it’ll be exposed to.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon...Tesla_Roadster

    Musk had originally speculated that the car could drift in space for a billion years.[13] According to chemist William Carroll, solar radiation, cosmic radiation, and micrometeoroid impacts will structurally damage the car over time. Radiation will eventually break down any material with carbon–carbon bonds, including carbon fiber parts. Tires, paint, plastic and leather might last only about a year, while carbon fiber parts will last considerably longer. Eventually, only the aluminum frame, inert metals, and glass not shattered by meteoroids will remain.[77]
    Don't mess with my fantasy! [make that more alliterative if you like]

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    the straw mam is that anything but glowing admiration for the man and the marque is hate
    No, the straw man is the argument that if you can criticize the man without significant specifics, then his work must also be subpar.
    Last edited by CWSmith; 07-10-2019 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    thats funny.

    musks like Trump - a polarizing huckster who's conflated himself and "his mission" and made everything into an up/down vote on it and him. If you don't support Tesla 100% you are against EVs/everything else (see: stupid comments directed at me repeatedly in this thread).
    So, Hugh, I've not seen anyone refer to the need to support Tesla 100% and I don't even know what that means.

    I do know exaggeration when I see it and it is a poor form of debate.

    Personally, I think the worldwide car industry, and the US car industry in particular, is stagnant. Their new ideas are small increments based on the same old technology. For instance, Prius made a big step forward based on Detroit research that Detroit did not put into production until after Prius showed them there was a market. I think electric cars are much the same and I do applaud Tesla for having the courage to move forward. I don't think that's 100%, but like I said I don't know what that means.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    So, Hugh, I've not seen anyone refer to the need to support Tesla 100% and I don't even know what that means.

    I do know exaggeration when I see it and it is a poor form of debate.

    Personally, I think the worldwide car industry, and the US car industry in particular, is stagnant. Their new ideas are small increments based on the same old technology. For instance, Prius made a big step forward based on Detroit research that Detroit did not put into production until after Prius showed them there was a market. I think electric cars are much the same and I do applaud Tesla for having the courage to move forward. I don't think that's 100%, but like I said I don't know what that means.
    No one I know (nor anyone here I think) believes the Tesla is perfect. However, as you say, it has moved the needle in a very good way - to show people that an electric car can be fun & have performance. Who else has done that?

    I also get that many love to hate Musk. Fine. As said above Henry Ford wasn't exactly Prince Charming & many high power people aren't.

    The objections to the car itself seem to be 1) safety for rescue/fire folks after a crash (which is a big deal) & 2) a niggle about door handles.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    AFA the fire risk - it's so infrequent as to be newsworthy when it happens. How many IC vehicles have burst into flames after a mishap? If you think about it - having a vehicle that's carrying a tank of highly flameable liquid.... how dumb is that?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    AFA the fire risk - it's so infrequent as to be newsworthy when it happens. How many IC vehicles have burst into flames after a mishap? If you think about it - having a vehicle that's carrying a tank of highly flameable liquid.... how dumb is that?
    I think it may have happened in a movie or TV show.








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  32. #312
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    My favourite commentator on American automotive matters devotes his weekly rant to the topic of electric cars this week http://www.autoextremist.com/ .Well worth a few minutes of your time.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    "musks like Trump - a polarizing huckster" verbNORTH AMERICAN
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]


    • 1.
      promote or sell (something, typically a product of questionable value).

      I would agree that that is one definition of Trump...Musk has produced something that is to the benefit of society and our ecosystem, something Trump has no conception of.




  34. #314
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I also get that many love to hate Musk. Fine. As said above Henry Ford wasn't exactly Prince Charming & many high power people aren't.

    The objections to the car itself seem to be 1) safety for rescue/fire folks after a crash (which is a big deal) & 2) a niggle about door handles.
    I really did ask about the whole "love to hate Musk" thing because I don't understand it.

    As for safety and door handles, I wonder how many people carry those glass breakers because power windows will stop working when the power goes out? It used to be a big worry - especially when driving over bridges. I never saw a window or door that stood up to the jaws of life...

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    The objections to the car itself seem to be 1) safety for rescue/fire folks after a crash (which is a big deal) & 2) a niggle about door handles.
    3) persistent build quality issues - there's a reason CR ditched them

    4) paint issues - rust belt peeps might want to look into this.

    5) poor sales support - they don't know their head from their musk

    6) poor to awful service support - waits of a month too six months for some repairs

    no one would accept the crap from a conventional car company that Tesla zealots are willing to put up with.

    but don't argue with me, argue with the person who's taken an intimate look at one. Or ignore her.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 07-10-2019 at 10:08 PM.

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