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Thread: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

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    Default Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I see a lot of really negative comment about electric vehicles, almost as though there are people actively searching for any possible negatives, inventing some more, and greatly exaggerating all of those in order to show that "sparkies" are anything but practical, useful or environmentally friendly.

    Its not as though their gas or diesel powered vehicles or their refuelling stations are going to disappear overnight. I'm wondering whats got their undies in a twist.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Ludditism. I'm sure the carriage builders felt the same. And there was resistance. The Flag acts…...

    "In the United Kingdom, the Locomotive Acts was a policy requiring self-propelled vehicles to be led by a pedestrian waving a red flag or carrying a lantern to warn bystanders of the vehicle's approach. In particular The Locomotive Act 1865, also known as Red Flag Act, stated:Firstly, at least three persons shall be employed to drive or conduct such locomotive, and if more than two waggons or carriages he attached thereto, an additional person shall be employed, who shall take charge of such waggons or carriages;Secondly, one of such persons, while any locomotive is in motion, shall precede such locomotive on foot by not less than sixty yards, and shall carry a red flag constantly displayed, and shall warn the riders and drivers of horses of the approach of such locomotives, and shall signal the driver thereof when it shall be necessary to stop, and shall assist horses, and carriages drawn by horses, passing the same,"

    "
    In the United States, the state of Vermont passed a similar Red Flag Law in 1894, only to repeal it two years later.[2] The most infamous of the Red Flag Laws was enacted in Pennsylvania circa 1896, when legislators unanimously passed a bill through both houses of the state legislature, which would require all motorists piloting their "horseless carriages", upon chance encounters with cattle or livestock to (1) immediately stop the vehicle, (2) "immediately and as rapidly as possible ... disassemble the automobile", and (3) "conceal the various components out of sight, behind nearby bushes" until equestrian or livestock is sufficiently pacified.[3] The law never took effect, however, due to a veto by the state’s governor, Daniel H. Hastings.[3]"

    The coal industry also is in semi-redundance and is fighting for it's future. Oil and Coal will continue to be used for a long time to come (climate change willing) but the industries will look nothing like they do today.
    The long trobled history of the ME is all about oil and the vast profits accruing. That influence on the present dangerous political games being played there should not be discounted.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Electric cars? Or Teslas? The two are not the same despite conflation on both sides of the argument. In the US the latter has had a bad combination of drivers - the BMW/Audi jerks moved to Teslas - and the toxic online fanbase of Musk the messiah.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Hmmm... I've not notice the anger, except by ignorami.
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Unsurprisingly, I had seen some resistance. Not a ton, though.

    Personally, I think the transition will take a while. Battery technology will have to come up to speed to the point where reasonable ranges will be attainable. And then pricing will have to come down to the point where one is no longer paying a substantial premium for the technology. Meantime - diesels look good. Too bad so few are offered in the U.S. If I had to buy a car today, though, it would be a hybrid. Don't know if they will serve merely as a transitional step... or if they'll have a long-term niche along EV's.

    If I had the money to be an Early Adopter... I'd be looking at the Rivian truck & SUV.
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Oh hell remember what happened when incandescent lightbulbs were phased out? Jesus that was a bizarre couple of years here in Murica. RWW media talked about cfl like it was fluoride or communism.
    Maybe electric cars carry socialism.
    Last edited by LeeG; 07-03-2019 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Unsurprisingly, I had seen some resistance. Not a ton, though.

    Personally, I think the transition will take a while. Battery technology will have to come up to speed to the point where reasonable ranges will be attainable. And then pricing will have to come down to the point where one is no longer paying a substantial premium for the technology. Meantime - diesels look good. Too bad so few are offered in the U.S. If I had to buy a car today, though, it would be a hybrid. Don't know if they will serve merely as a transitional step... or if they'll have a long-term niche along EV's.

    If I had the money to be an Early Adopter... I'd be looking at the Rivian truck & SUV.
    Range is no longer the problem, charging time is.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    John, I do not doubt your perception but I humbly ask where are you seeing the negativity? Online auto forums?

    I do have an Audi..and my wife does call me a jerk sometimes but not when she is driving. I would get a Tesla Model 3, which was supposed to be priced
    around 36K.. A friend just bought one..65K. I am priced out. As a retired guy that car would work fine...any long trips we take we go to the airport.
    The Technology of the Tesla my friend bought does scare me...I am not up to speed on the intricacies and probably never will be...Am I angry...no..just left behind.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Electric cars? Or Teslas? The two are not the same despite conflation on both sides of the argument. In the US the latter has had a bad combination of drivers - the BMW/Audi jerks moved to Teslas - and the toxic online fanbase of Musk the messiah.
    Wow. I'm a jerk because I drive an Audi? Mighty broad brush sir.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    John, I do not doubt your perception but I humbly ask where are you seeing the negativity? Online auto forums?

    I do have an Audi..and my wife does call me a jerk sometimes but not when she is driving. I would get a Tesla Model 3, which was supposed to be priced
    around 36K.. A friend just bought one..65K. I am priced out. As a retired guy that car would work fine...any long trips we take we go to the airport.
    The Technology of the Tesla my friend bought does scare me...I am not up to speed on the intricacies and probably never will be...Am I angry...no..just left behind.
    "Rivian truck" yeah!

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger



    like I said, socialism! runaway!

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    There is cynicism where one might hope to find enthusiasm or even mild interest.
    My perception has been that the world view of the cynic is at the heart of it. "Why bang on about battery stuff when petrol is fine, solar is unreliable and sure, they say, climate change is real - but its not the cause of anything bad. I remember hot summers when i was a kid."

    I'm a million miles from a Tesla, but the auto industry is a set up for the kind of R&D that very few other private industries can achieve.
    If they push battery, and other electric technology, we'll live in a cleaner world much quicker.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I take it that in oil rich countries there are people who see alternatives to oil transportation as threats to their national identity. “why would I ....?” etc.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow. I'm a jerk because I drive an Audi? Mighty broad brush sir.
    At least you have an excuse!

    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    "I take it that in oil rich countries there are people who see alternatives to oil transportation as threats to their national identity. " The Federal Subsidy on EV's has been cut in half by the Trump Administration and is going away at thee end of the year...no surprise.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    "I take it that in oil rich countries there are people who see alternatives to oil transportation as threats to their national identity. " The Federal Subsidy on EV's has been cut in half by the Trump Administration and is going away at thee end of the year...no surprise.
    That mofo has to go now.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/c...?module=inline

    WASHINGTON — The world’s largest automakers warned President Trump on Thursday that one of his most sweeping deregulatory efforts — his plan to weaken tailpipe pollution standards — threatens to cut their profits and produce “untenable” instability in a crucial manufacturing sector.

    In a letter signed by 17 companies including Ford, General Motors, Toyota and Volvo, the automakers asked Mr. Trump to go back to the negotiating table on the planned rollback of one of President Barack Obama’s signature policies to fight climate change.

    The carmakers are addressing a crisis that is partly of their own making. They had sought some changes to the pollution standards early in the Trump presidency, but have since grown alarmed at the expanding scope of the administration’s plan.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Z View Post
    Some of the morons in the Illinois legislature were keen on imposing a $1,000 per year registration fee on electric vehicles, but cooler heads prevailed, and now it will only cost you $248 per year to register an electric vehicle.
    Apparently, they were pi$$ed that some drivers could avoid paying the lucrative gas tax, which they just doubled.
    lucrative? States can’t run a deficit like the feds so they actually have to pay for things. When the national gov’t can’t do the job states have to. Btw look up comparative road wear between a car and an 18 wheeler. There’s a reason why Abrams tanks tear things up, it’s not just the treads. It’s the weight.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Its not as though their gas or diesel powered vehicles or their refuelling stations are going to disappear overnight. I'm wondering whats got their undies in a twist.
    Giving rich people a subsidy often draws scorn. Perhaps people are angry at the purchasers rather than the vehicles.
    Life is complex.

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    Im not surprised at that type resistance, hybrids were sneered at for a long time by the folks who rig their trucks to roll coal.
    Teslas are so ubiquitous in the SF Bay area now no one notices. Coworkers have them, several neighbors also. We just drove Interstate 5 up to near the Oregon border and back, every car transporter we saw was loaded with Teslas and heading north. Must have passed dozens. I bet Portland and Seattle are getting as many electric cars as we have.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Hundred-to-one odds there is a strong correlation between antipathy toward electric vehicles and denial of climate science.

    Just sayin'.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow. I'm a jerk because I drive an Audi? Mighty broad brush sir.
    No... not at all, at all.

    We've discussed your issues... and I've offered to solve them for you. One has to admire your ability to hold your head up high... and make the best of it all <G>
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Giving rich people a subsidy often draws scorn. Perhaps people are angry at the purchasers rather than the vehicles.
    Yeah, I am priced out on a Telsa Model 3, I don't do car payments. I get what you are saying...but not angry...just disappointed.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Giving rich people a subsidy often draws scorn. Perhaps people are angry at the purchasers rather than the vehicles.
    Are more equitable way of doing things, would be to end any incentive on big trucks and allow tax breaks to businesses to by an electric fleet.

    The benefit comes down the line when the fleet gets renewed and there's a bunch of well-maintained, used electric vehicles for the public to buy.
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    John, I do not doubt your perception but I humbly ask where are you seeing the negativity? Online auto forums?

    I do have an Audi..and my wife does call me a jerk sometimes but not when she is driving. I would get a Tesla Model 3, which was supposed to be priced
    around 36K.. A friend just bought one..65K. I am priced out. As a retired guy that car would work fine...any long trips we take we go to the airport.
    The Technology of the Tesla my friend bought does scare me...I am not up to speed on the intricacies and probably never will be...Am I angry...no..just left behind.
    Mainly forums, not necessarily auto ones. And not everyone but there are people out there who really hate the idea that a car can move around without pistons going up and down. I did wonder for a while if it were oil industry funded "bots" but then some names I know came up, and on checking, the hate, not just dislike, hate, was real.

    Me, I drive a diesel, love it, but expect that when it comes up for replacement in a couple of years that I'll be checking out plug in hybrids.

    John Welsford.
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    Hundred-to-one odds there is a strong correlation between antipathy toward electric vehicles and denial of climate science.

    Just sayin'.
    Yep, almost certainly. It's part of the 'toxic masculinity' thing, although not at all limited to men. Acknowledging climate change, eating less meat, driving an electric or hybrid car - all just a sign of weakness to those who feel threatened by change.
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Giving rich people a subsidy often draws scorn. Perhaps people are angry at the purchasers rather than the vehicles.
    Perhaps with enough thrust pigs can fly. I don’t get a sense of scorn when rich people got a tax cut or poor people buy subsidized gas.

    This is bigger than resentment of people who can afford $50k vehicles, like an F150.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I think that electric vehicles are well on the way to take over.....eventually.
    However, they do have issues that are yet to be resolved.
    Price, charging times etc. Range isn't an issue any more IMHO.
    I am sure that I read somewhere that an electric vehicle backed into the water while launching their boat.
    The water shorted out across the battery terminals and the driver got electrocuted.
    People who tried to assist him also got hit by electric shocks.
    That could be a problem.....don't drive through deep water in an EV.
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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No... not at all, at all.

    We've discussed your issues... and I've offered to solve them for you. One has to admire your ability to hold your head up high... and make the best of it all <G>
    Yeah, but I don't have to jump or wear tall heels to "hold my head up high"

    & while I'm jumping (pun intended) your case - I could go after the Beanie Baby too - but he's in Texas so he already has enough problems...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    I would suggest that many of us are annoyed by the left wing righteous wack jobs who dream that we will all have electric cars and fly on electric planes etc. They appear to firmly believe that electric cars are emission free (which they obviously are not) and have no idea where they will get all the electricity that will be needed for charging purposes. Solar and wind are not quite up to it in most areas. Coal fired power plants are a bad idea. Natural Gas power plants don't have much advantage over using a similar fuel in a vehicle so far as I know. We have a fair amount of hydro electric power in Manitoba but it is costing a fortune to build dams and power lines to deliver it south to where the people are. A lot of larger cities where electric cars might make some sense do not have the infrastructure to support mass electric car charging. Then there is the issue of battery fires. Do a Google search to see what fire departments have to do when one of the Tesla's catches fire. I would not want one parked in an attached garage.

    Electric/gas hybrids sort of appeal to me. I thought the Volt looked OK but now GM has dropped it. Unless and until the batteries become much better, electric cars will not have the range that some folks need. When we go to the lake, it is 175 miles each way. We use a pickup truck because we haul a lot of stuff back and forth and we need to be able to launch and retrieve a boat. It think it will be a while before an electric vehicle can manage that.

    How is that for a bunch of reasons from an old white guy with a bit of a red neck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Btw look up comparative road wear between a car and an 18 wheeler. There&rsquo;s a reason why Abrams tanks tear things up, it&rsquo;s not just the treads. It&rsquo;s the weight.


    18 wheeler operators also pay quite a bit more in taxes. They use a lot more fuel which is taxed by volume, and they pay permit fees also. Whether these taxes are actually used for road maintenance is another matter.

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Although we have the luxury of not needing to do so in Manitoba (at least at present), there is no doubt we should be investing much more in small-scale modular nuclear power generation, by way of transitioning to more renewable energy, and to a hydrogen economy, if we can figure out the technical challenges before the collapse.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by oldsub86 View Post
    I would suggest that many of us are annoyed by the left wing righteous wack jobs who dream that we will all have electric cars and fly on electric planes etc. They appear to firmly believe that electric cars are emission free (which they obviously are not) and have no idea where they will get all the electricity that will be needed for charging purposes. Solar and wind are not quite up to it in most areas. Coal fired power plants are a bad idea. Natural Gas power plants don't have much advantage over using a similar fuel in a vehicle so far as I know. We have a fair amount of hydro electric power in Manitoba but it is costing a fortune to build dams and power lines to deliver it south to where the people are. A lot of larger cities where electric cars might make some sense do not have the infrastructure to support mass electric car charging. Then there is the issue of battery fires. Do a Google search to see what fire departments have to do when one of the Tesla's catches fire. I would not want one parked in an attached garage.

    Electric/gas hybrids sort of appeal to me. I thought the Volt looked OK but now GM has dropped it. Unless and until the batteries become much better, electric cars will not have the range that some folks need. When we go to the lake, it is 175 miles each way. We use a pickup truck because we haul a lot of stuff back and forth and we need to be able to launch and retrieve a boat. It think it will be a while before an electric vehicle can manage that.

    How is that for a bunch of reasons from an old white guy with a bit of a red neck?
    All good points & I too was disappointed in the Volt being dropped. An AWD Volt wagon would be perfect for me. My issue is 1) The aforementioned AWD, while not 100% necessary, makes my life much easier (& yes, I run 4 snows in the winter), and 2) for my purposes I need a 300+ mile range - preferably 350-400.

    Electric cars just aren't there yet for people who drive long distances & live in the sticks.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fonzoga View Post
    18 wheeler operators also pay quite a bit more in taxes. They use a lot more fuel which is taxed by volume, and they pay permit fees also. Whether these taxes are actually used for road maintenance is another matter.
    indeed, and those costs are passed on to consumers. Care to bring up comparative road wear between a 4000 lb auto and a 40,000 lb truck?

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    indeed, and those costs are passed on to consumers. Care to bring up comparative road wear between a 4000 lb auto and a 40,000 lb truck?
    Most 53' trucks are running closer to 80K and lots of log trucks push 100K.

    In partial answer to your question:



    Another (bold mine): http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/boise...vement-damage/

    Consultant Patrick Balducci of Battelle Group told the governor's transportation funding task force just now that axle weights matter, not just total weight of a truck compared to total weight of a car, when calculating impact on pavement damage. But, under questioning from committee members, he said the rule of thumb is that one fully loaded axle on a big truck is equal to the pavement damage of 10,000 passenger cars. Task force members were stunned. "It's been measured," Balducci told them. "For years, millions of trucks have been measured. These are engineering calculations that have been studied by the federal government beginning in the 1950s and continuing today." When task force member Jim Riley asked what the difference might be if that figure were off by 25 percent - say, if a loaded truck axle were equal to just 7,500 passenger cars - Balducci said that would be contrary to "50 years of research on the part of the Federal Highway Administration."
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the prospect of electric cars becoming common cause so much anger

    Quote Originally Posted by oldsub86 View Post
    I would suggest that many of us are annoyed by the left wing righteous wack jobs who dream that we will all have electric cars and fly on electric planes etc. They appear to firmly believe that electric cars are emission free (which they obviously are not) and have no idea where they will get all the electricity that will be needed for charging purposes. Solar and wind are not quite up to it in most areas. Coal fired power plants are a bad idea. Natural Gas power plants don't have much advantage over using a similar fuel in a vehicle so far as I know. We have a fair amount of hydro electric power in Manitoba but it is costing a fortune to build dams and power lines to deliver it south to where the people are. A lot of larger cities where electric cars might make some sense do not have the infrastructure to support mass electric car charging. Then there is the issue of battery fires. Do a Google search to see what fire departments have to do when one of the Tesla's catches fire. I would not want one parked in an attached garage.

    Electric/gas hybrids sort of appeal to me. I thought the Volt looked OK but now GM has dropped it. Unless and until the batteries become much better, electric cars will not have the range that some folks need. When we go to the lake, it is 175 miles each way. We use a pickup truck because we haul a lot of stuff back and forth and we need to be able to launch and retrieve a boat. It think it will be a while before an electric vehicle can manage that.

    How is that for a bunch of reasons from an old white guy with a bit of a red neck?
    From one getting old white guy to a defensive old white guy may I suggest you are getting off on a fantasy about left wing whack jobs as much as you are addressing the issue. It takes energy to move a pile of weight however that energy gets to the wheels. Making vehicles with large power capacity to accelerate a lot of weight fast is fun when fuel is cheap but not a good idea when it’s not OR you want to reduce ghg emissions. Nothing left or right about it.

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