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Thread: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Ted, I don't have an analysis. But I've seen lots of carbon fiber parts (pre-preg) and I dealt with carbon fiber rods.

    They may be wonderful on a strength to weight basis, but they are really small - thus small strength. Actually I don't know why you want them in a vertical direction. Maybe I'm just slow.

    I think I finally get what the setup is. Each side of the gudgeon will be in bending, with no help from the other side.

    Chopped fiber is death compared to continuous filaments - uni or cloth and the fibers have to run fore and aft to get the bending strength.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Ted, I don't have an analysis. But I've seen lots of carbon fiber parts (pre-preg) and I dealt with carbon fiber rods.

    They may be wonderful on a strength to weight basis, but they are really small - thus small strength. Actually I don't know why you want them in a vertical direction. Maybe I'm just slow.

    I think I finally get what the setup is. Each side of the gudgeon will be in bending, with no help from the other side.

    Chopped fiber is death compared to continuous filaments - uni or cloth and the fibers have to run fore and aft to get the bending strength.
    Maybe I am missing something which is very likely.

    The chopped fiber is part of the casting to replicate the original bronze piece which will fit in place of what was lost and broken bronze. Once I pop the cast out of the mold, I can sand to shape the gudgeon to accept several layers of quasi-isoropic carbon fiber sheeting to make the simple curve to include the rudder stock. I figure the 3/8" carbon fiber plating adhered to the cast would have that strength I am looking for. An additional fiberglass layer and epoxy would be the insulator.

    If it doesn't work, I am planing another haul out in October to put the electric pod drive in. I can inspect and replace it then.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Above is the port side of a two part system, clamped on via 4 screws. There was an open gap between the grudgeon arm which collared the rudder post sleeve. The other piece broke off a while back but I was unaware until we hauled/ The rudder felt loose but still functioned enough to sail a proper course.

    the rudder was last “repaired” in 1968 after losing the final SORC race which broke its winning run as boat of the year.
    So it is not heavily loaded. It still worked after one side fell off. Were the two parts through bolted? If so how did the one stay on?

    The composite will not be anywhere near as stiff as bronze unless you use unidirectional fibers. I still think that you want the flat surface made of cloth or unidirectional fiber, but the thick parts around the pintle would be easier to cast with the chopped strand material.

    It might be a good idea to put a flat plate on the outside to spread the fastener load and toughen it. Titanium is the only metal that is compatible with carbon in seawater. Titanium Grade 2 is as stiff and strong as bronze and machines like stainless (poorly, but doable). $48.62 for 6 x 6 x 1/8" Ti 6-4 is about 3 times as strong, expensive and difficult to machine. A long lasting adhesive bond to titanium is not easily achieved. An etch primer should help http://www.pettitpaint.com/products/...etal-kit-6456/
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    The composite will not be anywhere near as stiff as bronze
    Yes, I'd be wanting to put a rib down it.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    I may not understand the laminate specification correctly.As with all composite matters,fibre orientation is key and I would work hard to include some unidirectional material along the longitudinal arms of the part.Probably alternated with woven carbon cloth.The description of the wetting out process and the resin choice would put the technique into the realms of what is often called wet-preg laminating.Most of the carbon pre-preg I have been close to was cured inside a vacuum bag in an autoclave at 120 deg C.I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there may be a post cure process for the chosen resin that may improve the physical properties of the laminate.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Above is the port side of a two part system, clamped on via 4 screws. There was an open gap between the grudgeon arm which collared the rudder post sleeve. The other piece broke off a while back but I was unaware until we hauled/ The rudder felt loose but still functioned enough to sail a proper course.

    the rudder was last “repaired” in 1968 after losing the final SORC race which broke its winning run as boat of the year.
    Having seen this I would simply get a fab shop to weld up a copy in bronze, or find a foundry to copy the surviving half.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Having seen this I would simply get a fab shop to weld up a copy in bronze, or find a foundry to copy the surviving half.
    That is the way to do it with a more generous time and financial budget. I would consider brazing in lieu of welding, but either way would work.
    Total cost for the build should be under $50.
    OK, never mind the titanium idea.
    for everyones info:
    The quote for a custom bronze gudgeon that holds a 1 1/4" rudder post was $1100 and three weeks time minimum. my lay days start on Friday at 60 per day.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    This is a good deal off the OP project but were I faced with this issue, I'd be much tempted to redesign to the extent of getting rid of the skeg, which looks like a toy and, skinny down there, not much good support for the rudder. I have seen skeg and rudder units where it turned out that the rudder was holding the skeg up. Good thing they were only fair weather sailors.

    Grannuaile, my old Marco Polo, had a pure spade rudder, balanced and hung on a very robust stainless pipe. As LFH wrote, "Many people will not like the balanced rudder, but when it is considered that almost all small and medium size naval craft today use them, it is not very radical." Of the many advantages to a balanced rudder are: being balanced means less helm pressure; the fattest part of the foil is back from the leading edge meaning that a very serious rudder stock can go there; and having no skeg to muddy the waters, more attention can be paid to the foil.

    So, I'd want an NA to design a free spade rudder or convince me why the skeg and rudder was better.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    I come to like the skeg. Although my rudder plenty strong could be redone to be free, the way it shields the foil is pretty nice.

    let me continue to horrify a great many of you... The resin and chopped fiber casts did come out well. I let the chopped fiber settle in the resin as it cured and can now remove a great deal to accept the numerous carbon fiber layers.

    A2F9554D-2F05-495E-BF4D-2A8B81739986.jpg

    AD09E88F-1613-4828-87E1-D042F677B00B.jpg

    I now have an additional backup - Alcoa metals 8 mins from the house has a 16" silicon bronze bar 1/4" x 2" for $38 which i can pick up on Friday if I blow this.

    Thanks to Peters Sibleys 2003 tread - this might be managable even with a guy with a just a bbq grill, a propane hand torch and a 1 1/4" stainless rods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moray MacPhail View Post
    I have made about 300 horses in bronze over the years; this is how I do it (using phosphor bronze usually, but have also done the same with silicon bronze and aluminium bronze)

    Get the camber into the horse by bending cold. You can do this by hand up to 1" diameter. Ideally you would get the bends in cold, but in practice you need some pretty epic equipment to do that in anything more than 1/2" bar.

    So heat the area to be bent - ie the corners - to just below red. This bit is critical, if you heat to cherry red or yellow and bend the bronze will break. (Because all copper based alloys have a temperature at which they go "hot short" and lose strength between the grains. So they just crumble apart.)
    The temperature you want is where there is just a hint of red below the surface - well that's what it looks like. I find it best to do this operation in a slightly gloomy light to see what is going on.
    Put the bend in reasonably quickly, and water cool the bronze as soon as you can. Why water cool? at high temperatures for a period of time the bronze will anneal and soften. To get the bend in you need to work it at a high temperature, but to keep the hardness get it cool again as quickly as possible.

    As for the deck collars, to minimise the heat input I pin these in place rather than weld them.

    Hope this helps
    BTW don't do the same trick with steel - if you water quench that it will become brittle, so air cooling is required.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-03-2019 at 09:54 PM.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Why not go the exact opposite and vastly cheaper way, welded steel? You could the either paint and protect or galvanize, but either method gets you in the water sooner and is certainly strong enough.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelirrojo View Post
    Why not go the exact opposite and vastly cheaper way, welded steel? You could the either paint and protect or galvanize, but either method gets you in the water sooner and is certainly strong enough.
    Iron would work too. But that would force me to wonder about aspects of that as well. Speed is only one concern. Frankly, I try to be clever, frugal and smart with this boat. As with all boat building and repair we do, there are always dozens of ways to do something. Sure doing bronze is one way as is iron.

    Challenging my skills and use of polymers that contain carbon fiber is all part of the process. Since I am making parts that are not going to be under tremendous loads, that need minimal care, would like to fit exactly into existing forms, will not react with bronze rudder post, the harm is low. Surely this use of sandwiched fibers into polymers is a far better solution and are less prone to degradation on galvanic coupling to metal. Many boats like mine sit in the water for years without being hauled and even bottoms cleaned. In modern boat making, this should be considered in the age of relative costs. I suspect that in the rise of 3D printers it will be the way most boat builders will be able to forge their own replacement parts.

    I am 2/3rds the way through. I plan to sand the rough and high spots off, have to place another 2 layers of s glass, followed by some west system epoxy with 404 additive to act as an insulator, predrill the holes and fill with epoxy, drill again, mount and paint.

    I will be in the water by Monday afternoon.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-05-2019 at 09:46 AM.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Brown View Post
    Composite gudgeons can be a challenge because the material is not the same strength in all directions like metal is. Many parts (such as carbon chainplates) can be easily made because the fibers can be aligned with the loads. The simplest way for me to describe the way a laminate such as a gudgeon would fail is with the phone book analogy. If you bend a phone book 90 degrees and pinch it tightly, it will resist bending further because the pages all tighten against each other, but if you bend the opposite way the pages separate from each other and it bends easily. It's the same with fibers and resin. A right-angle laminate will be very strong when bending the angle closed but break easily if opening the angle because the laminates separate from each other at the bend.
    The gudgeon section posted is beautifully built, but I think it's likely that it will be combined with a horizontal flange (as seen on cassette rudders) to take the shear loads. Making a part like that takes an incredible number of layers and many separate baggings (because bagging lots of layers at once causes wrinkling fibers).
    Making laminated hardware is really fun and satisfying. It's good to make stuff that your life doesn't depend on. That rudder gudgeon looks to me like a good thing to make from metal.
    Usually when I post here I seem to kill the thread and I hope it doesn't happen this time. Composite hardware and wood boats go together well I think.
    I love that you posted this. I was mentally composing something similar, and you saved me the trouble. Mine would also have been more blunter about understanding the engineering factors before haring off into construction of such a critical component. You've gently saved me from offending (once again) the 'reinvent the wheel/gyro gearloose' segment of our population.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    As one thread murder to another, I have to agree that perfect alignment of the fibers makes for a stronger part. I would also point out that the properties that I listed below, 250 ksi tensile for a pultruded bar, which is inherently well aligned and of a high fiber to matrix volume ratio is about 8 times as strong as bronze, so a good bit of slop in the layup is tolerable. It looks like Ted laid up some trial pieces that do have the G-10/FR4 or filament wound fiberglass liners. When I fussed about shear strength, I was thinking of carbon fiber pintles, but now I think he meant to use the rods for something else. Whatever, the stuff is great for tension and mediocre for torque and shear. I think that the loads will be mostly tensile, so it's all good here. As for making it from metal, well yeah, it would be more durable, but not as much fun to make and discuss. A casting http://www.porttownsendfoundry.com/rudder-fittings or brazed assembly are options subject to budgetary constraints and personal preference. (Ted seems to like the carbon fiber idea and apparently has the materials on hand.)

    As for galvanic corrosion, as long as it isn't electrically connected to any other metal, there is no problem. I was only warning against direct contact with pintles and fasteners. The glass liner isolates the pintle and the screw holes will need some sealant. I would consider drilling slightlyoversize and lining the holes with a hard epoxy like Loctite Marine epoxy, which is far better than its hardware store bubble pack might lead you to believe.

    The 'foam' in the https://www.blacklinemarine.com/home...m-fabrication/ gudgeon looks like an epoxy syntactic foam, possibly even a hard urethane. I will distribute the loads. I would not skip that part.
    Sounds like you have sufficient technical knowledge to manage such a project. Not many do. I wouldn't, without a bunch of research. Again I'll point out what a key compent we're talking about for the safety of boat & crew. Not something I'd be experimenting with with a 'I heard', 'let's try this', or 'can't we just' approach...

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Any part that is in bending like one side of this gudgeon, will have one surface in tension, the opposite in compression, shear along the layers in the middle and shear thru the thickness fwd of the mounting screws.

    Picking out one property and saying everything will be all right is not taking into account everything that will break.

    I'm going to say a prayer for Ted, since I don't consider a rudder minimal when thinking about saving the boat.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    My original bronze ones failed. I am contemplating making my own using this technique. I will detail my own build over the week if the a quote to remake bronze ones i find to be quite too high. This technique once done will be sleeved in teflon. could be a great application and use carbon fiber rods to hold into place. Total cost for the build should be under $50.



    There is too much guesswork here. Or perhaps I am the only one who doesn't quite understand exactly how this goes together. I see a roughly square hole in the rudder and a shaft on the left side of the hole, with the skeg to the right. There might be a bolt sticking out of the hole on the left side. The intact part is a 2.3 x 6.3" rectangle that doesn't match the hole.

    Where did the part break? What does the fracture surface look like? There is a smoother area on the left half of the unbroken part pictured. I think it broke at the line between the smooth and rough surfaces and in the picture. Was the right half of the gudgeon still on the skeg, but covered with paint so you can't see it when the picture was taken?

    If half of the part is still on the skeg in the picture, can you get a close up of the surface where it broke? You can tell a lot about a failure from a fracture surface.

    It sounds like it was broken and in the water for a long time, so I am afraid the the final fracture surface is corroded and would be difficult to discern. If, as I suspect, this was a fatigue fracture, the size of the final fracture surface would tell you a lot about the loading. (A small final fracture indicates a light load.)

    What did I get wrong?
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post

    It sounds like it was broken and in the water for a long time, so I am afraid the the final fracture surface is corroded and would be difficult to discern. If, as I suspect, this was a fatigue fracture, the size of the final fracture surface would tell you a lot about the loading. (A small final fracture indicates a light load.)

    What did I get wrong?
    It was made in two halves. The photos are of the half that did not break, we have not see the fractured pieces of the half that failed.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Gudgeons

    carbon fiber 10 layers 6 top & 4 below laid out in 0, 45 and 90 with both types of weave.
    Insulating being applied.

    8C5C774F-66FD-4B92-8A80-89A67E4CE7CB.jpg

    Backup for plan

    can fabricate in an hour.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    The port side gudgeon was subject to galvanic action. The fracture was a result of getting very thin. The broken remaint looked like saw edge. very thin.

    i have replaced and sistered in 3 the keelboats after I shop vac one up when I was cleaning the bilge.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-06-2019 at 08:05 PM.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Meanwhile the boat beginning to look good. She is just waiting for her shoes.

    4B4DBE0C-0D85-4A37-9302-F087978F106F.jpg
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    Looking great Ted. This might have been asked and answered, but do you know the source of the galvanic action? Is it current (haha) or historic? Do you have shore power? Galvanic isolator? Losing keel bolts and rudder gudgeons is pretty scary stuff.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Looking great Ted. This might have been asked and answered, but do you know the source of the galvanic action? Is it current (haha) or historic? Do you have shore power? Galvanic isolator? Losing keel bolts and rudder gudgeons is pretty scary stuff.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    thanks. I think I like working on the boat maybe more than sailing it. The roll and tip with that Berkeley breeze was a hard trick. I used a bit more thinner to get through. I went with petitt easy poxy this time. Hopefully it won’t be too hard.

    The boat sat up in a remote section of lonely marina for 10 years among decrepit commercial fishing boats which had sloppy shore power lines in the water. Sea lions lived in the cockpit for a while. Now at my current marina, I find myself pulling up my neighbors unshielded shore power out of the water. With so many lives boards, the shore power demand makes for constant hot water. I pulled all the old bronze throughulls which has suffered slight galvanic action last time. I ended up scarfing in new wood rather than replace the throughhulls. Truthfully, I should have looked at the gudgeons last time I hauled out but it was during weeks in heat wave of 40C plus and the boards threatened a spring. As it was, it took over a weeks to swell up enough that I didn’t need at constant commercial bilge pump. The bilge now is always dry which makes me believe I have done her good.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-06-2019 at 09:15 PM.
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    Indeed you have. Sea lions in the cockpit. Wow, that would have taken some cleanup.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It was made in two halves. The photos are of the half that did not break, we have not see the fractured pieces of the half that failed.
    Yes, That is what I said in the three paragraphs that you deleted. The part that you left says that the condition of the part that was not pictured is likely to be difficult to evaluate because it was exposed to seawater for too long after it broke. Up to that point there had been no clear description of the part that failed. It sounded like the entire broken part was missing, which implies a fastener failure. The picture however indicates that around half of the broken part was still on the skeg. The verbal description of the fracture was good enough to indicate that it was caused by a stray current corrosion problem that resulted in significant wasting resulting in an overload failure, not a fatigue failure. The load that caused the final fracture was much less than the load that an undamaged part would have been able to support.
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    It corroded and it broke.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Yes, That is what I said in the three paragraphs that you deleted. The part that you left says that the condition of the part that was not pictured is likely to be difficult to evaluate because it was exposed to seawater for too long after it broke. Up to that point there had been no clear description of the part that failed. It sounded like the entire broken part was missing, which implies a fastener failure. The picture however indicates that around half of the broken part was still on the skeg. The verbal description of the fracture was good enough to indicate that it was caused by a stray current corrosion problem that resulted in significant wasting resulting in an overload failure, not a fatigue failure. The load that caused the final fracture was much less than the load that an undamaged part would have been able to support.
    Sorry, that was not clear from your writing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    I don't understand.
    The first picture of the rudder had a skeg.
    The last picture had no skeg.
    What boat are we talking about?

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    I don't understand.
    The first picture of the rudder had a skeg.
    The last picture had no skeg.
    What boat are we talking about?
    everything is now painted black in preparation to go back in the water. The skeg on the boat is a racing skeg which basically protects the rudder as well as increase performance. The keel and ruddder with skeg were designed at Boeing by their engineers and were yachty top secret in 1966/7. The keel was designed to make the boat plane with the skeg shaped to change some of the rudder hydrodynamics characteristics rather than make it a free standing foil.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-07-2019 at 07:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    6A52C745-F1C4-400E-86D1-C309B65E2883.jpg

    The high points knocked off. They are starting to take good shape. The fiber tube made out of old cotton t-shirts and west system are pretty robust too.
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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    I didn't look close enough, I can see the skeg in the latest picture. Sorry.

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    Fitting into place. They will be quite sexy.

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    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    May Neptune be merciful. I'm feeling a lot better about it's chances since I saw how much you thickened it up over the brass piece.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Alameda, CA
    Posts
    13,783

    Default Re: Anyone here made carbon fiber gudgeons?

    We all need the sea god’s help. The boat needs a little less than the mortals who sail her.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-07-2019 at 09:16 PM.
    A large nose is the mark of a witty, courteous, affable, generous and liberal man. My feature suggests an excellent side kick of good index.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    18,705

    Default

    Well done Ted. I'm assuming the old one was bronze, not brass. Just saying.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

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