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Thread: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

  1. #1
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    Post Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Hi All, my first post here:
    I'm dreaming of a boat that I can build and store in my garage. It will be used for day-sailing 1-4 people on board, and camp-cruising (hopefully up to 4 as well?) on the great lakes. Ideally it would be also light enough to launch via hand-dolly at the local dinghy club.
    Let's just say first off, if I could afford to keep a keelboat i'd do that. But it's not in the cards for now, and I really do want to build...

    Requirements are:
    1) Unstayed rig for quick and easy setup
    2) Simple rig, easy to handle. I picture one sail only, or maybe two if it's a mizzen in yawl format.
    3) Large open cockpit for lounging and generally not feeling cramped when day sailing family of 4 (ideally 8' of bench seating each side)
    4) General feeling of stability for family day-sailing and future camp cruising
    5) sea-kindly motion in snotty weather/waves/wind
    6) Easily and safely single-handed, even in adverse conditions (I picture myself going out in rough stuff for fun)
    7) confident single-handed capsize recovery with minimal bailing (ideally none if fitted with self-draining cockpit sole and/or venturi bailer)
    8) confident VMG (speed is not cruicial, but I want to know I can make headway in various conditions and points of sail)
    9) lots of dry stowage and sealed buoyancy
    10) easily beached (love the double skeg on scamp)
    11) fit in my garage for building and storage on trailer, on a lifting platform strung into the rafters. (15' LOA max?, see below)
    Note: Interior space of garage is: 12' high and 19' long, but needs to hold a vehicle and lots of other items as well, including all the building supplies, tools etc. So, I think realistically, the total height of boat and building form or trailer must not exceed 5' and the length must not exceed 15'. Yes, I could maybe shoe-horn in something a bit longer if it fits the rest of requirements super-well, but the building process will be frustrating if the boat gets too big.

    Want to have:
    1) water-ballast (necessary to achieve requirements above, no?)
    2) Dry weight to allow for single-handed launching off manual dolly at local club. Perhaps I will need to rig some kind of tackle system to get up the ramp. (grass flats, concrete ramp) (600lbs max?)
    3) self-draining cockpit sole of some kind
    4) cuddy, dodger, veranda like scamp would be ideal
    5) attractive. personal taste, yes...

    So, in most respects a SCAMP is ideal. It just seems a bit small. They say you can day-sail 4 in one, but there isn't a photo with more than 3 aboard to be found on the internet anywhere. Not a chance you could do a weekend camping trip with 4, I don't think. Maybe I just need to build a sherpa as well, and when the kids get older we can start a flotilla for our camping trips.
    I've read all the stuff I can find about scamp and tread lightly on the net, and I hate to re-kindle the 15 foot scamp thread after Mr Welsford stated he had no plans for one... but it really would be ideal (maybe 14').

    Ok so as I see it, my options are:

    1) Stock SCAMP. Can someone please convince me it will do the job? This would be the easiest thing. It's already on the heavy side to move around by hand. And I think it looks just sweet as it is. Just a bit small. I hear you when folks (Howard Rice maybe) say that a bigger scamp is not a scamp, but how much would I really give up to get another 16" of bench seating?

    2) Stretched SCAMP - not sure this is possible. Would require 18% increase in length to get to 14'. This is a big number. I've seen 'Grace' a Tread Lightly stretched by 20% and she looks super wrong. John? Makes sense to me to re-size the design I like rather than a the other modifications to TL, below.

    3) Tread lightly, modified like Gizmo with cuddy instead of cabin, stretched by 7% gets you to 14' long. It's already narrower than SCAMP, so widening by 7% gets you to the same width as a stock scamp. It's already got buckets of free-board, so I would be reluctant to do a straight 7% increase all 'round. Obviously needs input from JW before proceeding. Would also need to be modified to allow for some self-draining capacity and water-ballast. I'm not sure how complicated that would be, but I think I could handle it. TL is less attractive than scamp to me; love that tumble-home transom.

    3) Houdini - Easily stretched from 13' to 14 or maybe even a bit more? Add water ballast? Would need to consult JW. Self rescue? not as easy as a scamp.

    4) Ebihen - 15 doesn't have water-ballast. 16 looks really big... And heavy. self-rescue? not as easy as a scamp! Heavy to handle on the beach

    5) Other ideas???


    John Welsford, if you're out there, I'd love for you to weigh in. I'm sorry for proposing modifications to your brilliant designs. You must get fed up with this kind of thing.

    Please help; I can't sleep at night.
    Ian

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    four people camp cruising out of a fifteen footer is a tall order
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    four people camp cruising out of a fifteen footer is a tall order
    Too tall, in my opinion. Certainly not in a Scamp--daysailing 3 is a bit crowded there in my experience.

    One boat you might want to consider (and even here, 4 aboard might be a stretch) is Jim Michalak's Family Skiff (15' x 5 1/2'):

    family skiff.jpg

    https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/jm-familyskiff.htm

    Very deep, secure hull, super comfortable. Side benches are 7' long. Lug yawl rig. This is one of the most comfortable boats I've ever sailed in. No cabin or cuddy, of course, though you might be able to rig a dodger or something similar to Scamp's veranda cuddy.

    But really, I do think your wish list is probably too long for a single boat to check all the boxes. Which ones are negotiable, and which are must-haves? Good luck!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Thanks for playing guys. Yeah, I thought that might be the case.
    I can let go of the camp cruise for four, but I'd still like to daysail four in some kind of comfort (for the short term, two of those will be children).
    I can't let go of the single-handing capability, and safety features for rougher water.

    Still feel like scamp/TL is the best compromise. Just a question of how far I can enlarge them before losing out on other performance criteria.
    cheers
    Ian

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Maybe your idea of camp cruising could be done canoe style: sail the boat daily and camp on the beach at night. Do you have any outdoor space in which you could store the boat? That would let you build a longer, roomier boat. I also think that giving up a hard cabin can save you a lot of weight for launch and recovery. Perhaps a boom tent? There are no plans for it, but I previously owned an 18' dory skiff that was only a few hundred pounds but plenty roomy and capable.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    14'11" Whittholz Plywood Catboat





    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    So, I think realistically, the total height of boat and building form or trailer must not exceed 5' and the length must not exceed 15'. Yes, I could maybe shoe-horn in something a bit longer if it fits the rest of requirements super-well, but the building process will be frustrating if the boat gets too big.
    park the car outside while building the boat and build an ian oughtred caledonia yawl
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    bolger folding schooner, 31'loa, 15'6" folded

    images.jpg
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    James Wharram Hitia 17

    Hitia 17

    Hitia 17 is the perfect beach catamaran, but also capable for use as a micro Coastal Trekker. Her wingsail sprit rig with low centre of effort gives good drive and great stability. The sail can be reefed and hence the boat can always be sailed safely without the risk of capsize, which most other beach cats are prone to. She has skegs and rudders that do not project below the V-eed hull, hence she can be sailed straight off the beach without lifting rudders or daggerboards.She has stowage space within the hulls and the two self draining 'cockpits' are big enough to sit in, or stow camping gear for a longer Trek. The boat can carry four adults. The deck is designed to take a standard two-man dome or pop-up tent, or you can make your own decktent to drawing supplied. Can be carried on the car roof of a bigger car or is easily trailed. A lovely minimalist coastal explorer.


    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    shall i continue?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Ya ok. I applaud your prolific suggestions, and please keep em coming. Folding is a no-go. Want fast set-up time.
    I've always liked the cat boats. Capsize potential and recovery - can anyone comment? I ruled it out previously over that item.
    Multihull - again, setup time... and real load carrying... I don't have the experience to say, but seems like a no-go at first blush..
    gotta go now, but let's keep thinking....!
    thanks

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwedge View Post
    Capsize potential and recovery - can anyone comment?
    don't think of it as a 22' traditional catboat

    rather it's 15' v bottom dinghy - its capsizable, and it's also rightable
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Mikesboat by Michalak. A friend has one and it is impressive, quick to build, big open cockpit with 8' benches, lots of sleeping space, well thought out storage etc and sails quite nicely. Check out some of the Texas 200 videos. I have a lovely Caledonia Yawl that I would not trade, but I think the Mikesboat is a very good boat if you don't mind the boxy pram look.

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    Default

    Hartley TS 16. It's an old design now, but a terrific boat. Still quite popular in Oz. 8 foot beam makes it very roomy. It has a stayed mast, but honestly, 15 minutes from arrival at the ramp to sailing. Sleep 2 in the cabin and 2 in the cockpit, just. Great little boat. Much, much simpler to build than a Scamp, which is a brilliant but complex boat.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

    07E0A114-C139-4361-9F57-70707770CD18.jpeg

    Selway-Fisher’s Northumbrian Coble “style” can be built stich’n’glue or lapstrake and daysail 4-5 people. He will do just about whatever rig you want
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    I built and used a Michalak family skiff. Cockpit is plenty big enough for 4. Side benches are big enough to sleep on, and so is the flat floor. Lots of built in stowage flotation. Light enough to use a dolly trolley. The bigger Mikes boat might not fit in your garage, but its just more of the same.

    The Whittholz cat boat is a good, but i think is going to be a handfull on a trolley due to weight.

    The 12ft San Francisco Pelican would work if not every one is camping "on the boat", which is a tall order for the size you want. The bigger Pacific and super pelican might work too. Simple builds, add a sprayhood and canvas tent.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Dierking Wa'apa built sectional? 24' group, 16' for solo. Would meet many of the requirements. If you can trailer it there's not necessarily alot of setup time for outriggers; they'll take up less room stored as well.

    Pelicans are slow and ugly imo.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Your biggest limiter is 'hand launch at the local dinghy club' rather than using a car - trailer.

    I do that. My boat is +/- 130kg without the trolley, and is on the limit up a ramp with a small lip on my own. I'm 46. As people get towards 60, that drops to 100kg up a ramp by my observation. If its a very flat ramp you could go higher, but thats not how they usually are.

    While you may have crew to help push and pull, if you singlehand it, which you will, your boat's going to have to be 'suprisingly light' for its size.

    On the good side you have alot of crew weight, which means intrinsically you can carry full sail in high winds, and have extra arms and hands to pull ropes, bail or steer, which is intrinsically sea worthy in itself and improve motion comfort. Also if you intend to leave your boat in the dinghy club park, you can infact have a stayed rig without penalty. While lugs are the rig 'du jour' currently, a stayed rig allows a jib on a forestay and the center of effort comes lower and helps to windward. With crew to pull ropes, I wouldn't discount having more than one sail too quickly.

    If your weight limit is fixed, and it probably is if you also want to lift it into the rafters, from my knowledge of boats there are two that are 'alot of boat for the weight'. One is Welsford's Navigator, the other is Clint Chase's Calandar Island Yawl. Others that might come into range are Oughtreds Penny Fee and the Dix Argie 15. These can be built to 130kg ish. Your going to have to be sweating the materials - Occume ply, cedar and spruce maybe alloy spars. Stay off the hardwoods. Be 'economical' with epoxy, and no 'added extras' off plan. Be minimalistic. Be a 'less is more' guy. Think 'how can I make this item lighter' at every stage from planking, to blocks and sailcloth. Boat's with a planked bottom, and no keelson, save a little weight usually.

    Otherwise many of the features cost weight and you'll need to trailer it in. Scamp has many of the features your looking for but weighs about 300kg as I recall, and thats at 12ft. A longer length to accomodate 4 people and the weight will be well into trailer territory. Scamp will sail 4 though and I wouldn't exclude it just because of its short length: its an 18ft boat without the pointy bits and has a nice character of its own. Exceptionally safe and capable. Short is also good inshore among moorings (or paying launch fees!). If you chose to trailer your boat in, and kept it on the driveway, then most of whats on your shopping list could be met with Scamp. Boats like the Vivier Lilou 2 has water ballast as does the new CLC Guider, Welsford Pilgrim and Long Steps.

    Sleeping 4 is going to be difficult without heading towards 18-20ft length. Some of the demands on your list are conflicting. Going boating, requires making choices. You could even consider keeping a 20ft cabin dayboat on a drying mooring and building a hand launch 9 ft pram to get to it. Overall you might be best meeting your sailing objectives and adjusting your storage and launch solutions to cope with that. As someone mentioned above a Caledonia Yawl is a great family trailer boat. If your building something, your children will be bigger and heavier by the time your finished. Your combined weights plus the boat's weight plus a bag or two, needs to be the approx design displacement when your enquiring about a design. You want 6ft beam, freeboard, side decks (some people will be sat on the leeward side), foredeck, possibly a metal centerplate and an outboard well easily to hand. 10sqm solo, but with a family aboard possibly closing in on 15 sqm.

    A Navigator will probably do it. Has alot of reserve stability. The standing lug main version will derig quickly. People arrange boards accross the fore and aft cockpit to sleep on it. It'd be a squeeze but you might find enough space overnighting, depends on how tall you all are.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-21-2019 at 05:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    If the length is fixed for all of those requirements, then you have to go wide to compensate. There are advantages -- the wide boat might not need ballast, and would have a reassuring degree of initial stability. If a catboat -- which would be my choice -- then you'll have a single mast in a tabernacle. Very easy to set and sail single handed.

    The Whittholz posted by Paul would be a good choice except that it's too heavy to push around by hand. Coming in at half that weight is Michalak's Blobster. But then you have to fool with filling and emptying a water ballast tank.

    Then there's the Marsh Cat, a beautiful boat that will camp cruise nicely with a well-made cockpit tent. Also great looking and by all accounts a great sailing boat. A more technical build than the plywood panel boats listed, but it's a keeper. They have been built lapstrake, too.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    John Welsford is very present on the Facebook Welsford page. I think it's the best way to find him.
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwedge View Post
    Hi All, my first post here:
    I'm dreaming of a boat that I can build and store in my garage. It will be used for day-sailing 1-4 people on board, and camp-cruising (hopefully up to 4 as well?) on the great lakes. Ideally it would be also light enough to launch via hand-dolly at the local dinghy club.
    Let's just say first off, if I could afford to keep a keelboat i'd do that. But it's not in the cards for now, and I really do want to build...

    Requirements are:
    1) Unstayed rig for quick and easy setup
    2) Simple rig, easy to handle. I picture one sail only, or maybe two if it's a mizzen in yawl format.
    3) Large open cockpit for lounging and generally not feeling cramped when day sailing family of 4 (ideally 8' of bench seating each side)
    4) General feeling of stability for family day-sailing and future camp cruising
    5) sea-kindly motion in snotty weather/waves/wind
    6) Easily and safely single-handed, even in adverse conditions (I picture myself going out in rough stuff for fun)
    7) confident single-handed capsize recovery with minimal bailing (ideally none if fitted with self-draining cockpit sole and/or venturi bailer)
    8) confident VMG (speed is not cruicial, but I want to know I can make headway in various conditions and points of sail)
    9) lots of dry stowage and sealed buoyancy
    10) easily beached (love the double skeg on scamp)
    11) fit in my garage for building and storage on trailer, on a lifting platform strung into the rafters. (15' LOA max?, see below)
    Note: Interior space of garage is: 12' high and 19' long, but needs to hold a vehicle and lots of other items as well, including all the building supplies, tools etc. So, I think realistically, the total height of boat and building form or trailer must not exceed 5' and the length must not exceed 15'. Yes, I could maybe shoe-horn in something a bit longer if it fits the rest of requirements super-well, but the building process will be frustrating if the boat gets too big.

    Want to have:
    1) water-ballast (necessary to achieve requirements above, no?)
    2) Dry weight to allow for single-handed launching off manual dolly at local club. Perhaps I will need to rig some kind of tackle system to get up the ramp. (grass flats, concrete ramp) (600lbs max?)
    3) self-draining cockpit sole of some kind
    4) cuddy, dodger, veranda like scamp would be ideal
    5) attractive. personal taste, yes...

    So, in most respects a SCAMP is ideal. It just seems a bit small. They say you can day-sail 4 in one, but there isn't a photo with more than 3 aboard to be found on the internet anywhere. Not a chance you could do a weekend camping trip with 4, I don't think. Maybe I just need to build a sherpa as well, and when the kids get older we can start a flotilla for our camping trips.
    I've read all the stuff I can find about scamp and tread lightly on the net, and I hate to re-kindle the 15 foot scamp thread after Mr Welsford stated he had no plans for one... but it really would be ideal (maybe 14').

    Ok so as I see it, my options are:

    1) Stock SCAMP. Can someone please convince me it will do the job? This would be the easiest thing. It's already on the heavy side to move around by hand. And I think it looks just sweet as it is. Just a bit small. I hear you when folks (Howard Rice maybe) say that a bigger scamp is not a scamp, but how much would I really give up to get another 16" of bench seating?

    2) Stretched SCAMP - not sure this is possible. Would require 18% increase in length to get to 14'. This is a big number. I've seen 'Grace' a Tread Lightly stretched by 20% and she looks super wrong. John? Makes sense to me to re-size the design I like rather than a the other modifications to TL, below.

    3) Tread lightly, modified like Gizmo with cuddy instead of cabin, stretched by 7% gets you to 14' long. It's already narrower than SCAMP, so widening by 7% gets you to the same width as a stock scamp. It's already got buckets of free-board, so I would be reluctant to do a straight 7% increase all 'round. Obviously needs input from JW before proceeding. Would also need to be modified to allow for some self-draining capacity and water-ballast. I'm not sure how complicated that would be, but I think I could handle it. TL is less attractive than scamp to me; love that tumble-home transom.

    3) Houdini - Easily stretched from 13' to 14 or maybe even a bit more? Add water ballast? Would need to consult JW. Self rescue? not as easy as a scamp.

    4) Ebihen - 15 doesn't have water-ballast. 16 looks really big... And heavy. self-rescue? not as easy as a scamp! Heavy to handle on the beach

    5) Other ideas???


    John Welsford, if you're out there, I'd love for you to weigh in. I'm sorry for proposing modifications to your brilliant designs. You must get fed up with this kind of thing.

    Please help; I can't sleep at night.
    Ian
    I think that Houdini would be your best choice, I sailed my original with four adults and a child on several occasions, its able to carry a prodigious load without any problems. A boat of this size with a cabin is very restricted in how many it can carry, instead of being a boat with a nice big cockpit, it becomes a boat with a small cabin, and a small cockpit.
    You can stretch a Houdini a little, perhaps 10% but no more, she'd be a nice boat at that length, and I think that with a well made boom tent, she'd sleep two adults and two children, more than that you need either a much bigger boat than you can get into your building space, or to carry camping gear to put some of the crew ashore.

    Water ballast tanks in a Houdini are no problem to build in, there is space below the raised floor to do that, space enough to accommodate enough water to add considerably to her righting moment.

    But Houdini fits all the other criteria, other than the Scamp type cuddy and even that can be reproduced as a folding canvas dodger which would serve the same purpose, without making the boat higher on its building form.

    If you've more questions, feel free to email or message me direct.

    John W
    Last edited by john welsford; 10-23-2019 at 03:22 AM.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Your biggest limiter is 'hand launch at the local dinghy club' rather than using a car - trailer.

    I do that. My boat is +/- 130kg without the trolley, and is on the limit up a ramp with a small lip on my own. I'm 46. As people get towards 60, that drops to 100kg up a ramp by my observation. If its a very flat ramp you could go higher, but thats not how they usually are.

    While you may have crew to help push and pull, if you singlehand it, which you will, your boat's going to have to be 'suprisingly light' for its size.

    On the good side you have alot of crew weight, which means intrinsically you can carry full sail in high winds, and have extra arms and hands to pull ropes, bail or steer, which is intrinsically sea worthy in itself and improve motion comfort. Also if you intend to leave your boat in the dinghy club park, you can infact have a stayed rig without penalty. While lugs are the rig 'du jour' currently, a stayed rig allows a jib on a forestay and the center of effort comes lower and helps to windward. With crew to pull ropes, I wouldn't discount having more than one sail too quickly.

    If your weight limit is fixed, and it probably is if you also want to lift it into the rafters, from my knowledge of boats there are two that are 'alot of boat for the weight'. One is Welsford's Navigator, the other is Clint Chase's Calandar Island Yawl. Others that might come into range are Oughtreds Penny Fee and the Dix Argie 15. These can be built to 130kg ish. Your going to have to be sweating the materials - Occume ply, cedar and spruce maybe alloy spars. Stay off the hardwoods. Be 'economical' with epoxy, and no 'added extras' off plan. Be minimalistic. Be a 'less is more' guy. Think 'how can I make this item lighter' at every stage from planking, to blocks and sailcloth. Boat's with a planked bottom, and no keelson, save a little weight usually.

    Otherwise many of the features cost weight and you'll need to trailer it in. Scamp has many of the features your looking for but weighs about 300kg as I recall, and thats at 12ft. A longer length to accomodate 4 people and the weight will be well into trailer territory. Scamp will sail 4 though and I wouldn't exclude it just because of its short length: its an 18ft boat without the pointy bits and has a nice character of its own. Exceptionally safe and capable. Short is also good inshore among moorings (or paying launch fees!). If you chose to trailer your boat in, and kept it on the driveway, then most of whats on your shopping list could be met with Scamp. Boats like the Vivier Lilou 2 has water ballast as does the new CLC Guider, Welsford Pilgrim and Long Steps.

    Sleeping 4 is going to be difficult without heading towards 18-20ft length. Some of the demands on your list are conflicting. Going boating, requires making choices. You could even consider keeping a 20ft cabin dayboat on a drying mooring and building a hand launch 9 ft pram to get to it. Overall you might be best meeting your sailing objectives and adjusting your storage and launch solutions to cope with that. As someone mentioned above a Caledonia Yawl is a great family trailer boat. If your building something, your children will be bigger and heavier by the time your finished. Your combined weights plus the boat's weight plus a bag or two, needs to be the approx design displacement when your enquiring about a design. You want 6ft beam, freeboard, side decks (some people will be sat on the leeward side), foredeck, possibly a metal centerplate and an outboard well easily to hand. 10sqm solo, but with a family aboard possibly closing in on 15 sqm.

    A Navigator will probably do it. Has alot of reserve stability. The standing lug main version will derig quickly. People arrange boards accross the fore and aft cockpit to sleep on it. It'd be a squeeze but you might find enough space overnighting, depends on how tall you all are.

    Thanks for your input Edward, I agree with what you say here. Navigator would indeed be another option, the other boats are way over Ians weight limit.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    5

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Thanks All, for the wonderful suggestions. Particularly to JW for answering here and on the facebook page.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear at the outset - I have little intention of sleeping on board the boat if I can avoid it. My wife certainly never would. I come from a canoe/kayak background and much prefer to sleep on the hard. But I am looking for dry stowage for all that camping gear, and a boat that is easy to beach for unloading.

    JW answered that Tread Lightly could be scaled up to 10%, evenly in all dimensions. This is a good option; it gets me to just shy of 14.5', about the same width as scamp. With a scamp knockoff cuddy i'm looking at maybe 7.5' of usable bench seating each side. That's pretty good. I would perhaps consider replacing the lead with water ballast. That would keep the weight down around 600lbs, by my vague guesstimate.


    Many of the options suggested just don't seem to have the same safety profile with respect to self-rescue as Scamp/TL. Houdini's description mentions the large volume of bailing required, and I think the same goes for the options from other designers above.
    Pilgrim would be really great ... but not enough space for me to build, much heavier (and no, I don't think it has water ballast. Looks like 450lbs of lead) and maybe too much to handle when coming ashore.
    And yes, Scamp is already at or beyond the upper weight limit for launching alone without mechanical assistance.

    I have been toying with the idea of building an electric trailer dolly to allow me to launch a much heavier boat at the local dinghy park. As long as it fits within their space limitations (20' long, 6.5' wide, all-in with trailer etc), it should be ok. Apparently the heavy-duty trailer dollies with big knobby wheels can work up to a slope of 15 degrees, about the same as an average boat launch.
    As for lifting it into the garage roof, I'll be using a couple of 1-ton chain hoists, so I don't think weight is a big issue there either. General working space will be at a premium, and it's likely the build will get very frustrating at points.

    Someone on JW's facebook page suggested (and JW confirmed) that there is a design in the works along the lines of a stretched scamp. I don't have any other details, but I think I will be waiting to see what that looks like before committing to anything.

    In the meantime, I'll try to find a deal on a CL14 (wanderer copy) to tide me over and get on the water.

    I think the suggestions are very interesting, and by all means keep em coming.

  24. #24
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    650

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Seems as if building is a large part of this, rather than just having a boat to get out on he water?
    Then the limiters of building space and weight in handling and launching have me thinking that you might be open to an alternative to a dinghy type boat, which, as you mention -- could be found ready made as a "deal" to get on the water.
    So far a catamaran and a Dierking wa'apa have been proposed, with both apparently being less than interesting.This might just leave a weeny gap to peeping at something completely different in the multihull line.
    With similar building space limitations imposed (as in garage space mentioned by the OP), along with launching single handedly trolley, there is a double canoe configuration that is in the asking as a candidate to meet most requirements this thread list's.
    Talking now of a Polynesian canoe based on the Tuamotus archipelago type, that should fit the building and launching limits, with 'camp-cruising' for up to 4 pers.
    Design of this type craft is not as yet fully done and dusted, but building a development prototype to proportions allowed for in a garage is hardly any more in cost time and effort than a small scale model.
    Had I not been pressed to finish a 30ft version of this type canoe started on many years ago, I would have been able to knock-up a scale model to show along with this post.Later this weekend I will be able to post a pen sketch of it.

  25. #25
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    Mar 2010
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    central cal
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Seems as if building is a large part of this, rather than just having a boat to get out on he water?
    Then the limiters of building space and weight in handling and launching have me thinking that you might be open to an alternative to a dinghy type boat, which, as you mention -- could be found ready made as a "deal" to get on the water.
    So far a catamaran and a Dierking wa'apa have been proposed, with both apparently being less than interesting.This might just leave a weeny gap to peeping at something completely different in the multihull line.
    With similar building space limitations imposed (as in garage space mentioned by the OP), along with launching single handedly trolley, there is a double canoe configuration that is in the asking as a candidate to meet most requirements this thread list's.
    Talking now of a Polynesian canoe based on the Tuamotus archipelago type, that should fit the building and launching limits, with 'camp-cruising' for up to 4 pers.
    Design of this type craft is not as yet fully done and dusted, but building a development prototype to proportions allowed for in a garage is hardly any more in cost time and effort than a small scale model.
    Had I not been pressed to finish a 30ft version of this type canoe started on many years ago, I would have been able to knock-up a scale model to show along with this post.Later this weekend I will be able to post a pen sketch of it.
    When you said waapa, I thought of this video...


    Peace,
    Robert

  26. #26
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    Oct 2019
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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    5

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Yes, building is a big part of it. And building something that I find beautiful. Michalak's designs don't do it for me in this regard.
    I have no multihull experience, and I will endeavour to get some before making a final decision, but the transport, rigging setup scares me off. And they really don't look comfortable.
    I'm after a big, safe, "E-Z boy-chair-with-a-sail" kind of experience. This says mono-hull to me. Yes, I guess you can lie down on the trampoline, but I've seen the hobie 16s out on the water, and they're not lying down for a snooze. looks downright uncomfortable to me.
    Thanks for thinking outside of the box. Sorry I'm not there yet.
    ID

  27. #27
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    Sep 2015
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    When you said waapa, I thought of this video...


    Peace,
    Robert
    The reason why Polynesian Islands were reached by double canoes rather than double outrigger canoes, is that they have the ability to carry loads in rough water and also have deck space to accomodate more people.
    when it comes to accomodating load and 4 pers with a max WL of 15 ft, a Polynesian canoe offers more

  28. #28
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    Mar 2010
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    central cal
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwedge View Post
    Yes, building is a big part of it. And building something that I find beautiful. Michalak's designs don't do it for me in this regard.
    I have no multihull experience, and I will endeavour to get some before making a final decision, but the transport, rigging setup scares me off. And they really don't look comfortable.
    I'm after a big, safe, "E-Z boy-chair-with-a-sail" kind of experience. This says mono-hull to me. Yes, I guess you can lie down on the trampoline, but I've seen the hobie 16s out on the water, and they're not lying down for a snooze. looks downright uncomfortable to me.
    Thanks for thinking outside of the box. Sorry I'm not there yet.
    ID
    The boat I posted a video of comes apart into 8’ sections. The whole shebang is lashed together after the hull sections are bolted up. Maybe 20-30 minutes? Transport on a flat bed and stack in the corner.

    The video certainly seems to show a vessel moving along well enough, and nobody seems about to fall off. Looks about right to shore camp from, too.

    But, they don’t look like pretty boats, usually, unless you find boats like that pretty.

    Peace,
    Robert

  29. #29
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    650

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwedge View Post
    Yes, building is a big part of it. And building something that I find beautiful. Michalak's designs don't do it for me in this regard.
    I have no multihull experience, and I will endeavour to get some before making a final decision, but the transport, rigging setup scares me off. And they really don't look comfortable.
    I'm after a big, safe, "E-Z boy-chair-with-a-sail" kind of experience. This says mono-hull to me. Yes, I guess you can lie down on the trampoline, but I've seen the hobie 16s out on the water, and they're not lying down for a snooze. looks downright uncomfortable to me.
    Thanks for thinking outside of the box. Sorry I'm not there yet.
    ID
    Sure, I get that an elegant keeler with all the gear to allow reclining while sailing would be the 'berries'.....maybe one of those mini AC 12's would do it.
    Elegance and a 15' multihull (with ability to pack 4 pesons under sail) is probably just as tall an order as a mini keeler that can be trolley launched off a beach, but I have done a little drawing of my suggested craft anyway and might still post it later today. First I am going to go and ask a visiting Tahitian canoe carver what he thinks if it.This guy is busy carving the most elegant dugout hulls from native NZ trees......I will try include a pic to illustrate beauty in wood
    and a canoe form.
    Tahitian canoes have generally had sleek lines and therefore been long and slim at the same time, making anything as short as 15' somewhat ungainly. Compromise is inevitable.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 10-24-2019 at 04:15 PM.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Va
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    I’ve owned both small monohulls and Hobie cats. Cats are a blast, but they are not Eazy Boy sailing!! Low comfort level, higher excitement potential. I consider them more to be water toys. I am now planning to move back to the Eazy Boy sailing life myself!

  31. #31
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Quote Originally Posted by No skillz View Post
    I’ve owned both small monohulls and Hobie cats. Cats are a blast, but they are not Eazy Boy sailing!! Low comfort level, higher excitement potential. I consider them more to be water toys. I am now planning to move back to the Eazy Boy sailing life myself!

    Cruisey kind of sailing depends much on the water and wind conditions, so yup, being selective about where and when to go sailing has a lot more to do with it than choice between mono or multihull - an open canoe in balmy conditions does just fine for one or two compliment. Of my most memorable time sailing, has been with my small family (comprising at that time of two young boys), when out on a lash-up double canoe made from a 14 ft hull/vaka and the ama being one boy's 8ft kayak.Two 14ft canoes joined similarly would have made things even more cruisey on that day 30 years ago and were I to be doing it all again, then all that I have since learned would be worth applying. So I might as well go ahead and post the drawing that was mentioned in #29.This will show that a sporty catamaran with a tallish rig is not at all what I am on about. The rig shown is a very old configuration( when the jib is removed) and although I have not yet trialed it, have already had such a sail made by my local sailmaker (220sqft in 8oz polyester) for the 30ft cruiserI am building.It would of course have been a better thing to have first made a small one of the size n the drawing for trialing, but I have been working through issues of compromise between aesthetics, function and practicality.This drawing is based on the original Oceanic craft and does take a lot to get used to.Then, after about 45 years as has been the case for myself, the aesthetics can be accepted along with the other important factors.I4man pahi sailing.jpgI4man pahi sailing.jpg
    Last edited by Lugalong; 10-26-2019 at 03:09 PM.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Hell
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    98,385

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Last edited by Paul Pless; 10-26-2019 at 07:05 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,728

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    You know, I love Vivier's designs. And lots of others. But the traditional, stern sheets + thwarts layout really doesn't provide room to fit a lot of people aboard in great comfort. Even my own Alaska (stern sheets, two thwarts, and bow platform) is best as a solo boat, ok with two aboard.

    DSCN3107.jpg

    Designs with full-length side benches seem to do better here. Michalak's Family Skill, Welsford's Pathfinder, Walkabout, Navigator, etc.

    Thoughts? Responses? Contradictions?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lexington, MA
    Posts
    791

    Default Re: Biggest little boat to build and store in my garage: SCAMP, TL, Houdini or.....?

    Your requirement: "11) fit in my garage for building and storage on trailer, on a lifting platform strung into the rafters. (15' LOA max?, see below)
    Note: Interior space of garage is: 12' high and 19' long, but needs to hold a vehicle and lots of other items as well, including all the building supplies, tools etc. So, I think realistically, the total height of boat and building form or trailer must not exceed 5' and the length must not exceed 15'. Yes, I could maybe shoe-horn in something a bit longer if it fits the rest of requirements super-well, but the building process will be frustrating if the boat gets too big."

    This is the unrealistic part. It constrains the size and weight too much.
    You will need a trailer anyway; why not store a larger boat outside under a tarp?
    Then you have innumerable nice options...

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