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Thread: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

  1. #1
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    Default Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    fook.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Another step in the plan to ensure that no one whose ancestors ever lived anywhere that was once part of the Spanish Empire will vote for a Republican anytime this century.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    A fine payback for non-citizens willing to risk their lives, and fight for this country.

    Is this what America is all about? Taking advantage of the powerless... and screwing them?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Is this what America is all about? Taking advantage of the powerless... and screwing them?
    No, but it's what Mr Trump has been doing for his entire career.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Family values for me but not for thee.


    https://slate.com/human-interest/201...ally-dead.html

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Maybe the active military needs to go on strike until we stop this insanity, take proper care of our vets, and I'm sure a few other things they could demand.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Family values for me but not for thee.


    https://slate.com/human-interest/201...ally-dead.html
    Back when that term was quite popular, I found asking people to define it pissed them off.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    On a DAILY basis, Trump will choose THE course of action guaranteed to effectively prove himself the most egregious horse's ass, then DO it. The POS has absolutely NO redeeming values.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Isolationism at work. What he'd really like to do is close the borders, abrogate all international treaties and rule the place like Vlad, Kimmy or Lee. "President for life'' with the ensuing 'Royal Family' treatment for his issue.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Isolationism at work. What he'd really like to do is close the borders, abrogate all international treaties and rule the place like Vlad, Kimmy or Lee. "President for life'' with the ensuing 'Royal Family' treatment for his issue.
    Uh-oh.

    The 'can't happen here' crowd will be along any minute!
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Thank you for your service.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    I'm surprised that the servicemembers are not facing UCMJ actions for having undocumented spouses in their homes.

    Sounds mean, but that's the flip side to the story. I know a guy who got kicked out because his wife smoked pot in military housing. A servicemember is responsible for the status and actions of their spouse.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    I wonder whether troops who aupport Trump with their votes will differ with their Supreme Generalissimo Commander In Chief over this?

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    The Military supported Hitler. The military supported Pinochet. The military supported Franco.

    The military will support Trump.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I'm surprised that the servicemembers are not facing UCMJ actions for having undocumented spouses in their homes.

    Sounds mean, but that's the flip side to the story. I know a guy who got kicked out because his wife smoked pot in military housing. A servicemember is responsible for the status and actions of their spouse.
    We accept non-citizens into the armed forces with no guarantee of citizenship for the service rendered. Up until 2016, no documentation was required. The program has now been discontinued (it was dormant for the last year of the Obama admin but has been killed off entirely since Trump) although non-documented individual continue to serve under the former regs. Registered alien can still serve although the status of their families remains befogged.

    As of now, non citizens can be inducted assuming they have a green card or certain desired or specific skills but their families remain subject to the Draconian rules now in. place.

    Strike you as reasonable or is it their fault for enlisting to serve without the benefits of citizenship?
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    The Military supported Hitler. The military supported Pinochet. The military supported Franco.

    The military will support Trump.
    Well, Franco took power in a long and bloody civil war, and the what afterwards became the Spanish military were the ones fighting for him. In 1973, a substantial majority of Chileans supported the coup, although most of them had no idea how it would turn out; they expected the military would turn things back over to a civilian government once Allende was gone. It had happened a couple of times before, but this time it didn't go as people expected, and by then it was too late. The Prussian military thought they were the state.

    The US military has a very long tradition of staying out of politics. OTOH, we've never had anything like Trump either; evangelical religion is a big factor, and God's laws override human laws for these folks. I sincerely hope it doesn't come anywhere near that.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    That's the reason why I am a strong supporter of a conscription army led by reserve officers like we have in Finland.
    If the leading hawks run amuck and start tearing down democracy both officers and men will throw their guns in the nearest lake and go home. At some critical point the hawks are bound to realize that the "army" they base their power on has less manpower and firepower than the moose hunting club in an average sized village.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    The Military supported Hitler. The military supported Pinochet. The military supported Franco.

    The military will support Trump.
    The military turned on the Czar. Things had gotten pretty bad, it's true. But it's possible.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Registered alien can still serve although the status of their families remains befogged.
    Of course, the DoD does not actually handle immigration policy. So while a non-citizen can serve, any family they bring need to follow the rules. Why wouldn't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    As of now, non citizens can be inducted assuming they have a green card or certain desired or specific skills but their families remain subject to the Draconian rules now in. place.
    Since when is being legally documented to stay in the USA considered 'draconian'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Strike you as reasonable or is it their fault for enlisting to serve without the benefits of citizenship?
    Seems reasonable to me, to give the servicemember that chance, but it's not an opening to bringing in an undocumented spouse or child. The program doesn't appear to be set up that way.


    Can immigrants serve in the US military?

    Yes! Each year about 8,000 non-citizens join the U.S. military. A 2011 study found that roughly 4 percent of those enlisted in active-duty military service are non-citizens. Generally, if a person is not a U.S. citizen, he needs to be a green card holder, i.e., a lawful permanent resident, to join the military. As discussed below, however, there are other ways a non-citizen could qualify to serve.
    How do recruiters know about immigration status?

    When a person wants to enlist in the military, his name is run through a national immigration database. If the person is determined not to have status as a citizen or green card holder, he will be turned away. It is also possible the person could be referred to the immigration authorities.
    If a person has any concerns about whether his immigration status is valid, he should talk to an immigration attorney before seeing a recruiter.
    Are there other special cases?

    Yes, a couple. Some Pacific Islanders are allowed to join the U.S. military because of international treaties. These treaty rules apply to citizens of the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic of the Marshall Islands and Palau.
    Likewise, certain Canadian citizens with American Indian heritage are treated as green card holders under U.S. law. Those individuals can enlist in the U.S. military after providing documentation of their special immigration status. (If you really want to know all about this subject, here’s a long article I wrote with a colleague).
    What is MAVNI?

    A program known as Military Accessions Vital to the National Interest, or MAVNI, allows the military to recruit non-citizens with special skills, such as health care professionals or those with language and cultural skills. The program was created in 2008 by the secretary of defense to help the military meet its recruitment goals in these high-need areas. You can request more information from the Army here.
    The MAVNI program was widely seen as a success, so it was a surprise to many when the Pentagon announced in 2014 that the program has been suspended. The status of the program under the Trump Administration is now under review, and may be canceled.
    Can DACA youth enlist?

    Currently, no. In 2012, the Obama administration launched a program called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals that gives limited immigration benefits to individuals who entered the U.S. as children.
    Although individuals in the DACA program are authorized to work, they cannot join the military. There may be exceptions under the MAVNI program in the future, but not currently. Hopefully Congress, which has now been assigned the task of determining the future of the DACA program, will create more wiggle room for those interested in enlisting.
    Are there restrictions on what jobs non-citizens can perform?

    Yes. Non-citizens are somewhat limited in the jobs they can perform in the military, since only citizens can obtain the required security clearances. Each branch, however, has a significant number of job occupations that do not require citizenship.
    It’s important to know that a person is not automatically barred from getting a security clearance merely because he is married to an immigrant; recruiters are sometimes confused about that point and provide incorrect information.
    What happens if an undocumented person enlists?

    My clients sometimes tell me that they’ve heard of undocumented immigrants who were allowed to enlist in a branch of the armed services. This is not allowed by U.S. law, so if it happens, it was a mistake by the recruiter. Once it is determined that the person is undocumented, he will be discharged from the military.
    Do non-citizens have to register with the Selective Service System?

    Yes. The Selective Service System is a federal agency that collects information about non-citizen individuals who may be required to perform military service. All non-citizen males ages 18 to 25 living in the U.S. have to register with Selective Service. Even undocumented immigrants who can’t enlist in the military are required to register with Selective Service.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    I do think that anyone previously using the paroled in place program should be grandfathered in.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Of course, the DoD does not actually handle immigration policy. So while a non-citizen can serve, any family they bring need to follow the rules. Why wouldn't they?...
    Maybe because someone willing to serve and fight for a country which is not his own, deserves to be treated with honor, and deserves every imaginable consideration. Someone who risks his life like that is someone we WANT as a citizen, isn't it? AND their families?

    There are loads of people who talk a lot about 'honoring those who serve'.... but someone who serves regardless of lack of citizenship ranks a damn sight higher, on MY nobility scale. These are people proven worthy of citizenship.

    I understand the problem, though... it's that brown skin..... good enough to fight, just not good enough to be part of what he's fighting for.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  23. #23
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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe because someone willing to serve and fight for a country which is not his own, deserves to be treated with honor, and deserves every imaginable consideration. Someone who risks his life like that is someone we WANT as a citizen, isn't it? AND their families?
    Let's be real... they often serve to get the fast track to citizenship. Just like some serve for the GI Bill. Those aren't a bad things, it's a deal both parties agree on, it's hardly greater than any other servemember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    There are loads of people who talk a lot about 'honoring those who serve'.... but someone who serves regardless of lack of citizenship ranks a damn sight higher, on MY nobility scale. These are people proven worthy of citizenship.
    Again, it's a mutually benefitting deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I understand the problem, though... it's that brown skin..... good enough to fight, just not good enough to be part of what he's fighting for.
    Well actual it's not about the your brown skinned hero, it's about his undocumented family. Like I said, I think any family already in the pipeline should be grandfathered in even though the rules stated it was for documented immigrants only, not undocumented. That's where I could see UCMJ action happening. They kick people out of the military everyday for dumber stuff.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    So now it is fine for some of our brown skin friends to be killed for our country but we better make sure we play by out rules, don't give their relatives a break. Change the rules...

    or just go back to conscription into the Military, like Vietnam.

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Of course, the DoD does not actually handle immigration policy. So while a non-citizen can serve, any family they bring need to follow the rules. Why wouldn't they?



    Since when is being legally documented to stay in the USA considered 'draconian'?



    Seems reasonable to me, to give the servicemember that chance, but it's not an opening to bringing in an undocumented spouse or child. The program doesn't appear to be set up that way.
    Called “parole in place” (or PIP), this new procedural avenue was meant to allow people who already qualified for a U.S. green card based on their family relationship to “adjust status”—that is, apply for lawful permanent residence or a green card—without leaving the United States, despite their past unlawful entry and stay.
    The reason this was important was (as described in Adjustment of Status via "Parole in Place" for Family Members of U.S. Citizens in Military) that the majority of immigrating family members who entered the U.S. illegally (without a visa or other form of permission) will need to leave the U.S. for “consular processing” in order to complete their application for a U.S. green card. But when they get to the consulate, they might face a three- or ten-year bar upon return, as a penalty for their past unlawful presence.
    This trap prevented many noncitizen family members of U.S. military servicepeople from applying for a green card in the past. (A so-called "provisional waiver" might help avoid problems at the consulate, but not everyone is able to prove the level of hardship that is required to be approved for the waiver.)
    Now in 2017, however, the PIP policy faces an uncertain future. One of the executive orders issued by Donald J. Trump (the one titled “Executive Order: Border Security and Immigration Enforcement Improvements”) says that no form of parole should be granted on an across-the-board basis. Many analysts are concerned that this will spell the end of PIP.
    (See, for example, this San Diego Tribune opinion piece, "Trump order drops protection for families of deployed military.
    It's important to realize that the Trump administration has not, as of this writing, definitively said that it would end PIP. ")Many types of parole exist--it's questionable whether the people who wrote the order even realized that this category existed and its importance for military families.
    Nevertheless, if you are about to apply for PIP, consult an attorney before taking the risk of being arrested and deported.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I do think that anyone previously using the paroled in place program should be grandfathered in.
    The comment above in blue bold tells you why they might not apply.. Our notions of Draconian are different.

    I can't find anything suggesting it will be grandfathered (and not just in this clip), but can find information suggesting that currently serving immigrants who haven't applied won't be able to although the details do not seem to be readily available. As with most things Trump, the body of his proposal seems murky and ill considered.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 06-30-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    .
    Morale in the ranks? The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    So now it is fine for some of our brown skin friends to be killed for our country but we better make sure we play by out rules, don't give their relatives a break. Change the rules...

    or just go back to conscription into the Military, like Vietnam.
    This would be good, it would guarantee a more diversified population in the military.
    What is the minimum IQ required for service these days?

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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    This would be good, it would guarantee a more diversified population in the military.
    What is the minimum IQ required for service these days?
    Are you somehow under the impression that he US Military is not highly diversified?

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    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Plans To Withdraw Deportation Protections For Families Of Active Troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    The comment above in blue bold tells you why they might not apply.. Our notions of Draconian are different.
    I guess... I consider applying for, and receiving proper documentation, prior to immigrating to be quite reasonable. Also, in case you didn't do that, then getting legal advice is a good idea before self-disclosing
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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