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Thread: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

  1. #141
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    [QUOTE]All nuance about healthcare and the morality of immigration policy will be squashed when Trump weaponizes this photo in the general election. In their zeal to court the progressive Democrats who vote in the primaries, they have saddled the eventual nominee with positions that are losers in the general election. God help us.


    They already give free care to anyone who needs it. No one tells the indigent to go in back of a dumpster and die, except maybe Trump Tower.

  2. #142

    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lesser View Post
    All nuance about healthcare and the morality of immigration policy will be squashed when Trump weaponizes this photo in the general election. In their zeal to court the progressive Democrats who vote in the primaries, they have saddled the eventual nominee with positions that are losers in the general election. God help us.

    I'm thinking tooth brushes and clean diapers.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    When you’ve been in politics and in Washington as long as he has — 36 years in the Senate, plus eight as vice president — there are votes from eras much different from the current one, controversial positions galore and mistakes aplenty. All of these were ammunition used against him on Thursday night, most electrically when Harris pressed him to defend his opposition to busing to integrate schools.

    Harris made it personal, telling him that she got the education she did because of busing. Biden said that he hadn’t been opposed to busing so much as in favor of local decision-making, and he thus left himself open to her righteous response: Did he not think that the federal government should swoop in to remedy obvious racial injustice?
    This very issue was a major part of the drive to impeach Andrew Johnson. "We've freed the N's, but we don't want to tell the state & locals how to protect their rights", said everyone but "the left". That strategy is a 150-years-proven failure. The Civil War rages on, on different battlefields. We didn't "free" the slaves any more than you "free" a dog by driving out in the desert and throwing him out the door.

    Biden's thinking -- like Democratic thinking generally -- has been corrupted by compromise-itis. You have to sell a compromise to accomplish it. Then you have to quit selling it and make it work. At the time, you say, this is the best we can do under the current circumstances. Thirty years later, the circumstances have changed. You can't just repeat your former arguments; and you must admit it was a compromise. By definition some quantum of principle was sacrificed.

    You don't have the same excuses now that you did then. And now, if there's anyone who has to demonstrate why the compromise has been a good thing, it's you. Maybe you got some Certificate Of Appreciation back then, it doesn't mean jack, now.

    Biden wasn't prepared to do it. He thought he could just whip out his Certificate. He's a compromise maker, perhaps a good one, but that's not all there is to it.

    Ms. Harris stripped him bare in a few sentences, because she knows what she's talking about, because she's the former Attorney General of California.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
    They already give free care to anyone who needs it.
    Who's "They"?

    It's true that no one can be turned away from an emergency room, but that's not healthcare. No one can get past the receptionist in a doctor's office without an insurance card or a wad of cash in their pocket.

    To quote Ari Fleischer:

    The Democratic plan for the future:

    1) Decriminalize illegal border crossings
    2) Provide illegals with drivers licences
    3) Provide illegals with free health care
    4) Watch illegal immigration soar
    5) Create a path to citizenship
    6) Win elections.
    Doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Ms. Harris stripped him bare in a few sentences, because she knows what she's talking about. . .
    I'm not a fan of Biden, but Harris' well-rehearsed attack did misrepresent his stance on a complex issue. No one who hoped to be reelected to the senate at that time could be a proponent of forced nationwide busing. She planned the attack even before he shot himself in the foot with his Eastland/Talmadge comments, but those comments made it easier for her to pile on.

    Biden should be held to account for his past actions, such as his failure in the Clarence Thomas hearings. But to claim that he was a champion of states rights (racism) in the face of his long history of support for civil rights is disingenuous.

    Regardless, the press has proclaimed her the winner and new heavyweight champion. The time to explore context and nuance has already passed. Next.

    It's troublesome that the fate of our democracy turns on such arbitrary and opportunistic occurrences such as this exchange, amplified by the press and social media. Remember Howard Dean's scream? There was so much commotion and background noise that no one who was actually in the room even heard it. But it was picked up by a microphone, and ended his candidacy.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    I didn’t think, or maybe was just hoping a 2nd term for trump was not possible. After the debates and seeing who the media’s “darling” is I’m in fear that it is not just possible, but inevitable.
    It’ll be a good time to invest in private prisons, arms manufacturers, big Pharma and big oil.

    When life gives you lemons......
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  7. #147
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Dave is right that Harris, a brilliant forensic debater, had the bussing and no doubt several other 'spontaneous' moments ready to trot out at need. [#145] But I heard her start with noting that Biden is not a racist. It's that at a point in the '70s he was on the side that personally hurt her. He did not champion state's rights. As Harris pointed out, he was talking of people he managed some bi-partisan work with, people of segregationist states' rights views. I think in Biden's mind it was "I could get stuff done even with these hateful bigots." But it came out all wrong . . .

    Biden championed local initiatives at school desegregation and opposed federally imposed bussing. Like the locally initiated bussing program Harris benefited from that was implemented a year before Biden's senate stance against federally mandated bussing.

    Imposed bussing, as happened in Boston, has a very mixed record because it can be implemented horribly, but it was closer to right in its time than piously hoping that a racist community would over-come its problems. Biden's a good man with a good record but he's not perfect and he should try to keep growing.

    For a good look at the dialectics of Biden:
    https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/73699...gregation-busi

    A look back shows that in the last half century when Democrats have gone with someone younger and a bit unknown - Kennedy, Carter, Bill Clinton, Obama - they won and when running an older establishment sort - Humphrey, Gore, Kerry, Hillary Clinton - they lose. Just thinking that much as I like my senator and have liked Bernie since working for his first mayoral campaign in 1980, they have joined Biden as people I'll not push for in the primary.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Biden championed local initiatives at school desegregation . . .
    The busing that she experienced WAS a local initiative at school desegregation, yet she claimed that it was hurtful to her that he opposed it. He didn't and she shouldn't have claimed that he did.
    Last edited by Dave Lesser; 06-29-2019 at 12:19 PM.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Dave is right that Harris, a brilliant forensic debater, had the bussing and no doubt several other 'spontaneous' moments ready to trot out at need. [#145] But I heard her start with noting that Biden is not a racist. It's that at a point in the '70s he was on the side that personally hurt her. He did not champion state's rights. As Harris pointed out, he was talking of people he managed some bi-partisan work with, people of segregationist states' rights views. I think in Biden's mind it was "I could get stuff done even with these hateful bigots." But it came out all wrong . . .

    Biden championed local initiatives at school desegregation and opposed federally imposed bussing. Like the locally initiated bussing program Harris benefited from that was implemented a year before Biden's senate stance against federally mandated bussing.

    Imposed bussing, as happened in Boston, has a very mixed record because it can be implemented horribly, but it was closer to right in its time than piously hoping that a racist community would over-come its problems. Biden's a good man with a good record but he's not perfect and he should try to keep growing.

    For a good look at the dialectics of Biden:
    https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/73699...gregation-busi

    A look back shows that in the last half century when Democrats have gone with someone younger and a bit unknown - Kennedy, Carter, Bill Clinton, Obama - they won and when running an older establishment sort - Humphrey, Gore, Kerry, Hillary Clinton - they lose. Just thinking that much as I like my senator and have liked Bernie since working for his first mayoral campaign in 1980, they have joined Biden as people I'll not push for in the primary.
    O come now, Biden is a racist, he never condemned them enough back then and by liberal rules he is a racist.

  10. #150
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    The same rules apply to everyone.
    But I understand you want some different rules? Special ones for reds?

  11. #151
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    bobbys . . . awww, what's the point?

  12. #152
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    makes you long for the days of milo and stan the fifth
    At least they were smart enough to realize when they were being exposed as idiots.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    More like ‘tools’- cheap, Chinese/Russian tools.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  14. #154
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Greece is part of the EU. Greeks can legally walk over to Germany where there are more jobs, better pay, better benefits, and yet, there are very few Greeks migrating to Germany. No walls, no concentration camps, there's even trains that will take them directly.

    This delusion that illegal immigrants will come flooding over the border is ridiculous on it's face and counter to all of human history. It requires you to believe a reality that only exists in zombie movies.

    The reality is that people are fleeing violence. They aren't running towards the US, they're running away from something else. The only thing that will make them run in a different direction is mass violence on civilians. Otherwise known as crimes against humanity.

    So maybe instead of trying to commit more atrocities, we should be looking at what's wrong in their countries and dealing with it. Especially since we are a major reason those problems exist in the first place.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    At least they were smart enough to realize when they were being exposed as idiots.
    .

    Well at least they dont insult people not able to respond.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    "Well-rehearsed"? "'Spontaneous [not!]'"?

    This is some strange criticism. It's illogical, and I hesitate to guess at where it's coming from.

    He invites criticism by asking to be considered for the nomination. She comes prepared to criticize his record, he comes unprepared to defend it.

    This is not a failing in him, but a fault in her? Criticism of a candidate -- his forty-year record -- is supposed to be spontaneous? The aspirants are expected to show up unprepared?

    This is how it's done:

    Q: Mayor Pete, what about the PD in your town?
    A: I didn't get it done.

    Q: Joe, what about Eastland and Thurmond?
    A: I compromised with evil.

    It's a chance to grab it by the yonks, rally the troops and head into battle. Defensiveness is pride and bad leadership. It's bad to have a President that thinks like that; this should be clear by now.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

  17. #157
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Dave is right that Harris, a brilliant forensic debater, had the bussing and no doubt several other 'spontaneous' moments ready to trot out at need. [#145] But I heard her start with noting that Biden is not a racist. It's that at a point in the '70s he was on the side that personally hurt her. He did not champion state's rights. As Harris pointed out, he was talking of people he managed some bi-partisan work with, people of segregationist states' rights views. I think in Biden's mind it was "I could get stuff done even with these hateful bigots." But it came out all wrong . . .

    Biden championed local initiatives at school desegregation and opposed federally imposed bussing. Like the locally initiated bussing program Harris benefited from that was implemented a year before Biden's senate stance against federally mandated bussing.

    Imposed bussing, as happened in Boston, has a very mixed record because it can be implemented horribly, but it was closer to right in its time than piously hoping that a racist community would over-come its problems. Biden's a good man with a good record but he's not perfect and he should try to keep growing.

    For a good look at the dialectics of Biden:
    https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/73699...gregation-busi

    A look back shows that in the last half century when Democrats have gone with someone younger and a bit unknown - Kennedy, Carter, Bill Clinton, Obama - they won and when running an older establishment sort - Humphrey, Gore, Kerry, Hillary Clinton - they lose. Just thinking that much as I like my senator and have liked Bernie since working for his first mayoral campaign in 1980, they have joined Biden as people I'll not push for in the primary.
    There are a couple things wrong with this. One, Harris was talking about busing in 1969, and Biden didn't run for federal office until 1972. Then there's the fact that the busing Harris took part in was voluntary on the part of the school district, not federally mandated, and was therefore the kind of busing Biden always favored. As near as I've been able to find out, he didn't opposed federally mandated busing until 1974, the year it was, as you point out, implemented badly in Boston.

    I doubt any of this will help Biden or hurt Harris. Most voters don't do nuance. I've said repeatedly that I don't think Biden will be the nominee, and his inability to respond well to this illustrates why. Harris managed to create a false impression about Biden's relationship the the busing she took part in. This makes her look more ruthless and less ethical than I thought her to be before the debate.

    None of the candidate are perfect. We'll have to decide what we can live with.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Harris managed to create a false impression about Biden's relationship the the busing she took part in. This makes her look more ruthless and less ethical than I thought her to be before the debate.
    How do we know he wouldn't have taken the same position in the busing she took part in, if he had been in a position to do so? Can we assume that his opposition to whatever busing it was didn't set someone back? IOW what difference does it make whether he was involved in her particular busing or not?

    His defense during the debate and since has been to simply cite his reputation. That doesn't get it. It's for him to say why he favored it in some cases and not in others. They were his actions. I mean, you don't have to know everything about history, but it would be good to be familiar with the parts in which you played a role.

    Suppose Harris had asked him, OK, whatever your decision was, how do you feel about it now, all these years later? Can't answer that with "Everybody knows what a good guy I am."
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    I told the forum a dozen times Sarah Palin bested Biden in a debate, however libs looked through partisan lens and refused to see it, it's all evident now, his best years are behind him as is a lot of us.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    How do we know he wouldn't have taken the same position in the busing she took part in, if he had been in a position to do so? Can we assume that his opposition to whatever busing it was didn't set someone back? IOW what difference does it make whether he was involved in her particular busing or not?

    His defense during the debate and since has been to simply cite his reputation. That doesn't get it. It's for him to say why he favored it in some cases and not in others. They were his actions. I mean, you don't have to know everything about history, but it would be good to be familiar with the parts in which you played a role.

    Suppose Harris had asked him, OK, whatever your decision was, how do you feel about it now, all these years later? Can't answer that with "Everybody knows what a good guy I am."
    Prosecutors only ask questions if they know the answer. Also, if she got into the nuances, her case wouldn't have looked as good.

    You've mischaracterized Biden's defense, which has been to point to his actual voting record, including being the deciding vote to keep the senate from banning federally mandated busing.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/6/28/191542...-school-busing

    Biden has a mixed record on this. He made two key votes that kept federal orders for busing from being banned, he first got elected on a platform favoring busing, but he also opposed mandatory federal busing after his constituents started to worry about it.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cratic-primary
    It presented a challenge for Biden, who had supported busing during his campaign a few years before. But in 1973 and 1974, Biden had begun to vote for anti-busing measures after feeling pressure from his constituents. However, in two key exceptions, he voted to table two anti-busing measures, killing their chances of moving forward in the Senate by one vote.
    There are a couple of problems here. One is that Biden is a product of his time, and his time has passed. Another is that the voters aren't as woke as the activists, and current polling shows they aren't fans of busing. Boston, one of the flashpoints for busing, went from having a public school system with more than half the students being white to 15% white. Not exactly a win from a desegregation standpoint. The success of the Berkeley busing program has hardly ever been replicated. Desegregation programs have moved on, with magnet schools being the flavor of the month currently.

    The entire exchange wasn't really about busing. I doubt Harris wants to see more busing, and if she ran on such a platform, it wouldn't be popular. In fact, if she becomes the nominee, it could come back and bite her.

    The point of the exchange was to first immunize herself from criticism by saying 'I know you're not racist,' then imply that Biden is racist. It was artfully done.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Biden's position as set forth in the Vox article is no more than the same old betrayal of reconstruction. It's worse than what he said at the debate.

    “I never, never, ever opposed voluntary busing ... " Right. And Andrew Johnson never opposed the defeated Confederate states voluntarily defending the civil rights of the newly freed slaves. Stupid to the point of insulting.

    1. "I’ve always been in favor of using federal authority to overcome state-initiated segregation.”
    2. “What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education."

    One of these statements is false.

    And in any case, who "intiated" it is irrelevant. The state ratifies it in its current state, or not.

    "I've always been against the KKK night-riding and lynching. But if the state didn't initiate it . . ." GTFOOH

    Reconstruction, like government generally, has to aim at the denial of civil rights wherever it lives, and smash it. This is its duty, to protect the rights of citizens. The government has all the law it needs. No excuses.

    What is this "woke" btw? It's not an adjective. It's the past tense of "to wake", e.g. "I woke this morning to find the same old excuses for not carrying out reconstruction."

    The point of the exchange was to first immunize herself from criticism by saying 'I know you're not racist,' then imply that Biden is racist. It was artfully done.
    No, just that he compromised with racism. It is for him to justify.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Biden's position as set forth in the Vox article is no more than the same old betrayal of reconstruction. It's worse than what he said at the debate.

    “I never, never, ever opposed voluntary busing ... " Right. And Andrew Johnson never opposed the defeated Confederate states voluntarily defending the civil rights of the newly freed slaves. Stupid to the point of insulting.

    1. "I’ve always been in favor of using federal authority to overcome state-initiated segregation.”
    2. “What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education."

    One of these statements is false.

    And in any case, who "intiated" it is irrelevant. The state ratifies it in its current state, or not.

    "I've always been against the KKK night-riding and lynching. But if the state didn't initiate it . . ." GTFOOH

    Reconstruction, like government generally, has to aim at the denial of civil rights wherever it lives, and smash it. This is its duty, to protect the rights of citizens. The government has all the law it needs. No excuses.

    What is this "woke" btw? It's not an adjective. It's the past tense of "to wake", e.g. "I woke this morning to find the same old excuses for not carrying out reconstruction."



    No, just that he compromised with racism. It is for him to justify.
    What Harris did certainly worked on you.

    Back up a little and take a look of your own. Biden favored the kind of busing that worked, like that in Berkeley. There are parts of the country where people have a quite different memory of busing, such as Boston. Do you think the system used in Boston should be used all over the country? If so, do you want to have the Democrats run on that platform?

    I do apologize for using colloquial English. I hadn't realized that you'd stopped learning.


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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    It's unlike you to resort to ad hominem.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    But in 1973 and 1974, Biden had begun to vote for anti-busing measures after feeling pressure from his constituents. “I did not oppose busing in America,” Biden responded. “What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education. That’s what I opposed.”

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cratic-primary
    Bull S.

    . . . In 1975, shortly after Boston residents protested and rioted over the city’s desegregation order, Biden came out in favor of an amendment introduced by North Carolina Sen. Jesse Helms, an ardent segregationist and white supremacist. Helms’s amendment would bar the then-active Department of Health, Education, and Welfare from collecting data about the race of students or teachers, and also prevented the department from requiring schools “to classify teachers or students by race.” Helms proudly announced that the measure would effectively end any federal oversight or enforcement of busing.

    -- ibid
    i.e. federally, i.e. the whole country. Delaware, Boston, Berkeley.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Biden, in CNN Interview, Says Harris Caught Him Off Guard in Debate.


    By Matt Stevens
    NY Times
    July 5, 2019


    Former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. said Friday that he had not been prepared for Senator Kamala Harris to so pointedly question his record on school busing during the first Democratic debates, extending the dispute between the two presidential candidates, who have sparred repeatedly in the week since their high-profile confrontation.

    In an interview broadcast Friday morning on CNN, Mr. Biden said that while he had expected candidates to target him, he had been caught off guard by Ms. Harris’s criticism in part because of their relationship.

    “I was prepared for them to come after me, but I wasn’t prepared for the person coming at me the way she came at me,” Mr. Biden said, adding that Ms. Harris “knows me” and had known his late son, Beau Biden.

    Mr. Biden also asserted that Ms. Harris had taken his position on school busing out of context. He reiterated in the CNN interview that while he believed federally mandated busing “did not work,” he was in favor of voluntary local busing efforts to desegregate schools like the one Ms. Harris participated in as a child in Berkeley, Calif., in the 1970s . . .

    Amid the dispute, Ms. Harris’s own views on busing have also come under scrutiny. She said Wednesday that local school districts should determine whether to bus students — essentially the same argument that Mr. Biden made on the debate stage. Perhaps sensing her unease, Mr. Biden’s aides pounced, prolonging what has been the most combative period of the Democratic primary to date.

    “It’s disappointing that Senator Harris chose to distort Vice President Biden’s position on busing — particularly now that she is tying herself in knots trying not to answer the very question she posed to him!” Kate Bedingfield, Mr. Biden’s deputy campaign manager, wrote on Twitter Wednesday night.
    Joe - poorly prepared
    Kamala - disingenuous

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lesser View Post
    Biden, in CNN Interview, Says Harris Caught Him Off Guard in Debate.




    Joe - poorly prepared
    Kamala - disingenuous
    Mayor Pete's campaign criticized Harris, and boy did they get burned back.

    https://twitter.com/Lis_Smith/status...92353467949056

    Harris seems to have about the same stand on busing as Biden, but I'd say her attack is still working. I'm fine with Biden sinking in the polls, he's not my favorite candidate, but I'm wondering, if Harris is the nominee, will this come back and bite her in the general election? As Mr. Russell pointed out, federally mandated busing was so unpopular, people rioted about it. Plus, it didn't really work to desegregate Boston's schools.

    This whole incident has got to be making the Republicans happy. The Democrats are destroying their own.

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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    This isn't a debate of the merits or techniques of busing. It's a matter of curbing the power of the federal government to protect the rights of citizens, i.e. the ongoing saga of reconstruction. The federal government was given that the power, under the constitution. This was the point.

    14th Amendment, Section 5: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
    If you don't want the Dept. of Education to mandate busing, tell them not to. Congress gives the power; the executive exercises discretion in using it, including not using it. If a court orders busing, you're not going to tell them squat. They are protecting the rights of citizens.

    So you're not ending busing by taking the power away from the DOE. You're simply preventing a wrong from being dealt with prospectively, federally, which was the point of the 14th Amendment. Somebody goes to a S school, and files suit in a court, they'll be in their thirties before a decision is final. How is that a superior mode of addressing the problem?

    Biden's compromise was a statute prohibiting busing by the DOE, i.e. taking away the discretion from the executive branch in all circumstances, in taking away the power. Why was a compromise necessary, and why was this a good one?

    Why should it be that the Department of Education has no power of who gets educated where, how, etc? Isn't that the very thing they are charged with?

    What did "we" (Biden) get from Helms in return?

    "Trust me, it was a good deal" doesn't answer the question; and as it happens, there is no person on earth better situated to answer it than Biden. Is he for some reason unaccountable?
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

  28. #168
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    This isn't a debate of the merits or techniques of busing. It's a matter of curbing the power of the federal government to protect the rights of citizens, i.e. the ongoing saga of reconstruction. The federal government was given that the power, under the constitution. This was the point.



    If you don't want the Dept. of Education to mandate busing, tell them not to. Congress gives the power; the executive exercises discretion in using it, including not using it. If a court orders busing, you're not going to tell them squat. They are protecting the rights of citizens.

    So you're not ending busing by taking the power away from the DOE. You're simply preventing a wrong from being dealt with prospectively, federally, which was the point of the 14th Amendment. Somebody goes to a S school, and files suit in a court, they'll be in their thirties before a decision is final. How is that a superior mode of addressing the problem?

    Biden's compromise was a statute prohibiting busing by the DOE, i.e. taking away the discretion from the executive branch in all circumstances, in taking away the power. Why was a compromise necessary, and why was this a good one?

    Why should it be that the Department of Education has no power of who gets educated where, how, etc? Isn't that the very thing they are charged with?

    What did "we" (Biden) get from Helms in return?

    "Trust me, it was a good deal" doesn't answer the question; and as it happens, there is no person on earth better situated to answer it than Biden. Is he for some reason unaccountable?
    From Dave Lesser's post:

    She said Wednesday that local school districts should determine whether to bus students — essentially the same argument that Mr. Biden made on the debate stage.
    If you feel that is irrelevant, we have no more to say to one another on this topic.

  29. #169
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Mayor Pete's campaign criticized Harris, and boy did they get burned back.

    https://twitter.com/Lis_Smith/status...92353467949056

    Harris seems to have about the same stand on busing as Biden, but I'd say her attack is still working. I'm fine with Biden sinking in the polls, he's not my favorite candidate, but I'm wondering, if Harris is the nominee, will this come back and bite her in the general election? As Mr. Russell pointed out, federally mandated busing was so unpopular, people rioted about it. Plus, it didn't really work to desegregate Boston's schools.

    This whole incident has got to be making the Republicans happy. The Democrats are destroying their own.
    .

    I told the forum , when Biden was ahead he would be so wounded in the debates he could never ever recover., I'm not one to give advice but if one stopped pandering to the crazy look left AOC wing of the party and went to the center they would have a chance. Not our fault the Democrats went crazy left, not one lib here sees it.

  30. #170
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    .

    I told the forum , when Biden was ahead he would be so wounded in the debates he could never ever recover., I'm not one to give advice but if one stopped pandering to the crazy look left AOC wing of the party and went to the center they would have a chance. Not our fault the Democrats went crazy left, not one lib here sees it.
    How's it going in Alternate Reality?

    Barack Hussein O'Bama was the finest conservative President since Eisenhower, and that's a fact.

    What's it like on YOUR planet?
    Rattling the teacups.

  31. #171
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    Default Re: My Takeaway From The Democratic Debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    From Dave Lesser's post:



    If you feel that is irrelevant, we have no more to say to one another on this topic.
    Busing is not the issue. Biden -- the presumptive leader of the Democratic Party -- helping Jesse Helms protect segregation is the issue.

    Biden joined Jesse Helms in backing a statute that would prohibit the executive branch using busing altogether. There could be no policy as to when to use it, sparingly or liberally. It would have been forbidden by law in all cases. Therefore talk of how it might be implemented by Biden or Harris or anyone is irrelevant, like talking about whether to paint a house you're not going to buy.

    The 14th Amendment, with its guarantee of the equal protection of the law, was enacted in consequence of the Civil War, in view of the need to protect citizens of the United States. It gives Congress the power to meet this need with legislation. It didn't appear out of thin air. So the question is, what legislation shall be enacted? Biden joined with Helms in backing legislation that would *prohibit* this particular remedy being implemented by the federal government, as represented by the Department of Education. This cannot be described as anything but an anti-busing measure, and so Ms. Harris' point is well-founded.

    I suggest that he was afraid, and got something out of the deal. What he got out of it is for him to say; and as he was a national legislator, acting on our behalf, wielding our delegated power, it is a legitimate inquiry whether he ever runs for office or not, more so if he does.

    This is what he was afraid of -- the violence of whites, the racist pigs of "Southie", who were only the tip of the national iceberg of racism, the violence upon which Jim Crow rests, same as it ever was, unbroken and continuous since the sabotage of Reconstruction, to Trump's second term, the sort of background-noise racism that "we are just going to have to accept, as a practical matter":



    This is the context. Harris and Biden may agree in principle that "local school districts should determine whether to bus students" but what if they decide not to, and that decision causes a denial of equal protection? What if they ought to, in the performance of their duty under the Constitution, but refuse? Should the federal government tie its own hands, complaining that "the law" -- their own codified cowardice, teamed up with deep Jim Crow expertise -- prevents it? That was the position Biden was constructing. He wanted, and apparently still wants, to leave it to the locals no matter what the locals do or don't do. That is plain abdication, precisely how racism becomes institutionalized. Precisely what the Fourteenth Amendment gives Congress the power to remedy.

    So indeed it is irrelevant that . . .

    She said Wednesday that local school districts should determine whether to bus students — essentially the same argument that Mr. Biden made on the debate stage.
    . . . because the question is, what is to be done when they don't do what they should.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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