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Thread: 'Inga' by William Atkin

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    ok, here's an old one, about as far downwind as I like to go. I know the Great Lakes can ger very rough, but I think a typical day on the Caribbean sea has bigger seas.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/wizban...posted-public/

  2. #37
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    I don't like to go dead downwind either. Besides the rolling, the sails have to be wing and wing to keep from blanketing each other, which makes me uncomfortable even without a sea running. It just feels like you're always on the edge of disaster. I prefer to bear off 20 degrees, still use a pole on the jib and a preventer on the main and be happy. Or set the big genoa and stow the main.

    Dead downwind is for the square riggers (and that includes viking ships perhaps.)

  3. #38
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    eh , Rolling.
    Long booms hit the sea .
    No cooking, no sleeping.
    Every item on the vessel that can move a quarter of an inch side to side combines to a cacophony .
    Has no one here sailed on the ocean?
    I'm not talking about apparent wind being too light going straight downwind in protected water, but seas.
    Did Vikings sail dead downwind? How would they do with their rails going under over and over and over. I think they would learn to point up a bit to a broad reach.
    That's every sailboat, You suggested something unique to a double ender.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    I feel double enders have less hardness in general. Even this hard bilge Inga. By hardness of course I mean hardness of the bilge.
    Most transom boats add some shoulder , some more push back, when submerged. Snapping them back up.
    Just my opinion/feeling, but yea, most double enders are gonna roll a bit worse.
    Part of the compromise every boat makes.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    As long as the cockpit is self bailing, transom boats have more reserve buoyancy.
    See; K. Adlard Coles

  6. #41
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    The cockpit has to be really small for that to work out or as with a lot of new boats, have cockpits open to reverse transoms.
    Last edited by navydog; 06-20-2019 at 07:55 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Open cockpits may be a modern trend, but they are designed to maintain adequate buoyancy while flooded.
    There is simply more volume aft in a transom boat.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Beaut video, Neverland!

    Is that a Wetsnail 32?

    Yes, it's a Westsail 32. Neither wet nor slow. Really an Atkin Eric, a Colin Archer inspired, scaled down and "Atkin-ized". William Crealock, often credited with designing the Westsail 32, says he didn't alter the hull shape of Atkin's Eric for the Westsail 32.

    Roger Taylor's "Good Boat" book series has several reviews of Atkin's double-ender designs (I don't think the Inga is in there), along with comments from both William and John Atkin. Apparently they continued to refine and improve the original Eric concept. Since Inga is a later design in their double-ender design evolution, it should benefit from some of what they learned from the earlier boats. I recall reading somewhere that John Atkin believed that Vixen was one of the best of their double-ender designs.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Here is our H28 "Bright Star" in a heavy Santa Ana Wind. The boat was breaking 8kts by sat nav. Son Jaime on the helm. Note how well balanced the boat is. This video is deceptive as it was blowing a lot harder than it appears to be.
    Jay
    Oops! I missed putting the address in:
    Anyway, there are a lot of H28's all over the world I am sure there are some near you if you want to check one out.
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 06-30-2019 at 06:46 PM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Here is our H28 "Bright Star" in a heavy Santa Ana Wind. The boat was breaking 8kts by sat nav. Son Jaime on the helm. Note how well balanced the boat is. This video is deceptive as it was blowing a lot harder than it appears to be.
    Jay
    Blew it out of sight.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    With 50% ballast, I don't think you have to worry too much about Inga's stability. But you should consider her sailing ability. The Hess Cutter will point considerably higher, and maintain a higher proportion of her hullspeed in strong winds and light winds, smooth water and ocean waves. I'd expect the Hess cutter will sail circles around the Atkin boat actually.

    The Hess boat does have a permanent backstay—that's a good thing. It will keep the headsails standing when the wind blows. The whole rig will be stiffer. And the keel is deeper, with more vertical lateral plane area (Ingrid doesn't appear to have any effective lateral plane). In addition, the Hess boat has more beam. It will be more comfortable inside and more stable. I say go with Hess.
    Last edited by photocurio; 06-29-2019 at 09:18 PM.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    http://www.smaalders.net/yacht_design/austral1.htm

    I am not trying to change your mind with this suggestion. But if you haven’t looked into the Smaalders designs, check them out. He and others have built and sailed them all over, altering the designs as time has progressed. I think they are good current era works. Based on classic lines. There might be some good information in there for you.

    A3D74701-A79A-418F-938D-FB85EE825DE3.jpg
    Last edited by Matt young; 06-29-2019 at 11:30 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    With 50% ballast, I don't think you have to worry too much about Inga's stability. But you should consider her sailing ability. The Hess Cutter will point considerably higher, and maintain a higher proportion of her hullspeed in strong winds and light winds, smooth water and ocean waves. I'd expect the Hess cutter will sail circles around the Atkin boat actually.

    The Hess boat does have a permanent backstay—that's a good thing. It will keep the headsails standing when the wind blows. The whole rig will be stiffer. And the keel is deeper, with more vertical lateral plane area (Ingrid doesn't appear to have any effective lateral plane). In addition, the Hess boat has more beam. It will be more comfortable inside and more stable. I say go with Hess.
    This.

    And we just rolled our way down to Fiji in a transom boat, one sell the boat night to start, ddw in light air and a lousy 5 or 7 ft swell. If Bruce says a pointy boat is worse, well sell the boat. Or run the angles.
    A bermudan/ Marconi boat without a standing backstay is a transitional thing from a short period as they became accepted and then the norm. Sailed one in a breeze? Make sure you do that so you learn the meaning of fear running downwind yawing down a wave .
    No standing backstay is for gaff boats.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    https://store.gartsideboats.com/coll...ter-design-145

    Here is a 27' Gartside cutter. Looks like an excellent small blue water boat:

  15. #50
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Hello all good shipmates,

    I can't Thank You all for all your comments and wise advice!
    I have decided to go ahead with Mr Atkin's design 'Inga'.
    A boomkin will added to the design for a permanent backstay as well as a permanent short bowsprit to balance her rig to as near perfection as possible.
    I will be down on the East Coast in July and will visit o few yards including "Rockport Marine' in Maine amongst others and later on I will be in Port Townsend, WA.
    We are really spoiled for choice with first class boatbuilders here in England and in America!
    Fair wind to all my good shipmates!

  16. #51
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    PM sent

  17. #52
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Did you know there is a used Inga for sale in Porstmouth NH?
    https://www.woodenboat.com/boats-for...ns-sloop-halia
    And another one on Cape Cod?
    https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/62024
    Last edited by photocurio; 06-30-2019 at 03:16 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Hi Photocurio,
    Doesn't it look 'curious' that it might be the same boat being sold on two different sites?
    Thanks anyway.
    Best!

  19. #54
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Yeah you might be right. It seems to be the same boat, Halia.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverland View Post
    Yes, it's a Westsail 32. Neither wet nor slow.
    My sister had one, and my father, who is a very experienced sailor, found it very frustrating, and called it the Wetsnail. Not "wet" as in spray on board, just not a dry snail, but a snail all the same.

    Beautiful boat, just wouldn't point, mostly.

    But older boat designs don't point, do they? My boat (1951) doesn't point that well, although a lot better than a Westsail 32 I suspect!

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Hi again all my good shipmates,
    Isn't it the whole story about not only boats but the world in general? 'Different strokes for different folks'!
    I do appreciate all your comments and I will make sure they are all considered before commissioning 'Inga'.
    One again, Thanks A Million to all my goos shipmates!!!
    Capucino

  22. #57
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    There always will be some are who wish to avoid using common sense when designing a boat in order to either circumvent a design rule or create a vessel that will sail at an amazing speed on or through the water. I applaud those who wish to experiment with new thinking as to what is best for the purpose the design is applied to. Even so, for cruising and coastal sailing, a boat that matches the area in which it will sail is a logical choice. The West Coast of the US has, in general, deeper waters to sail therefor our cruising boats were able to be deeper in draft than those of the East Coast such as the Chesepeak Bay where shallow draft boats are a necessary choice.
    Such designers as Herreshoff, Atkins, Fox, Shock, Mower, Hess, Walsh and Burgess applied a lot of common sense to their designs! And produced smart sailing seaworthy boats. Matt Walsh carved sweet formed half models and created boats that were usually faster than mathematical rule designs. Even so, his designs by instinct, still managed to fit within the rules!

    Burgess went out on a limb when he designed "Dorade", a boat with less beam than most East Coast designers were prone to create. "Dorade" was looked upon as a freak in the beginning until she began consistently winning open ocean races. Then the rest of the world began to accept the fact that broad beam and shallow draft was not the only way to design a boat!

    The Thames Tonnage rule in England that taxed commercial ships twice for beam and once for draft produced cargo carrying vessels that were unseaworthy in hull form. Many were over laden and sank as a result. This made way for Lord Plimsol to create the famous Plimsol Mark that is now used on all commercial ships to show safe lading and flotation at a glance. At the same time, Brittish pleasure boats became very narrow of beam, and were known as "Planks on Edge" a very nasty kind of hull form that depended on ballast rather than hull form for stability. This mania of design produced boats that would be forced to cease moving ahead and lay over and moo in a wind gust! Some even sank when doing so!

    In my humble opinion, Common Sense such as applied by our most successful designers should be applied to all of our. non experimental, water craft. Saftey and comfort in combination with smart sailing ability of hull form and rigs should be the goal to reach for!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-01-2019 at 01:10 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Hi Jay,

    Many thanks for your vey sensible response!
    As the old saying goes: 'Common sense is not common!'...
    One has only two look at what Captain Bligh did in 1789 in an overcrowded open boat to really appreciate what sailing is all about...
    If anyone were ever in doubt, should look at what Anthony Middletown, of SAS: Who Dares Win, who re-created Captain Bligh's daring (www.imcvision.com), if not almost impossible voyage, to save his men, to get an idea what it is 'to sail a little too close to the wind'...
    Or indeed, read 'The Venturesome Voyages of Captain Voss' as well as 'The Life and Voyages of Captain Joshua Slocum'. I believe that all modern sailors should eat humble pie in the face of these incredible achievements but to name a few...
    So I will have 'Inga' built as good as it gets then go play in the waves...
    Fair wind to all my good shipmates!

  24. #59
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Thank you Capucino!
    Enjoy the voyage from the very first thought and through all of your adventures at sea and life!
    Jay

  25. #60
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    Default Re: 'Inga' by William Atkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    My sister had one, and my father, who is a very experienced sailor, found it very frustrating, and called it the Wetsnail. Not "wet" as in spray on board, just not a dry snail, but a snail all the same.

    Beautiful boat, just wouldn't point, mostly.

    But older boat designs don't point, do they? My boat (1951) doesn't point that well, although a lot better than a Westsail 32 I suspect!

    Regards,
    John.
    There were some (non Atkinized) Westsail knock-offs produced in Australia under a similar or same name. Maybe your father/sister had one of those? I always find it interesting that most of the negative opinions of the W32 are shared by folks that haven't actually sailed one.
    In any case, the "updated" sail plan Crealock drew for the fiberglass version was way underpowered compared to the original Atkin Eric design he was working from. And yes, it would be very frustrating to sail underpowered. Most owners added a "Super Yankee" to move the boat in 10-20 kts of wind, and for better sail trim discarded the club footed rig on the staysail and added a traveler to the main. It's a wide boat, so I run the sheets for the yankee between the uppers and lowers to point like a skinny boat when working to windward. The baby Yankee Crealock drew for the boat doesn't come out until it's blowing 20-35kts. A genoa or drifter keeps her moving nicely in under 10kts of wind.

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