'Inga' by William Atkin

[Capucino]

Hi Shipmates,

Could anyone shed some light on Mr William Atknin's design 'Inga' (Atkin Boat Plans)?

She has a LOA 28'3", LWL 25', beam 8'6" and draft 3'6" with a displacement of 12,200 pounds. The outside lead weighs 5,700 pounds and inside ballast 600 pounds and sail area of 381.9 square feet.

I was told by a shipwright that her draft is too shallow to be a good seaworthy ocean going craft. Is it possible that such an eminent designer such as Mr Atkin could have made a mistake in designing her?

Her ballast is just over half her displacement. In a capsize she might right herself a tad too snappy resulting in breaking her mast but in any capsize there will be quite a mess anyway.

I would be very grateful to receive any advice...

Many thanks!

Fair wind to all good shipmates,

Capucino

[Thad]

Reading http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Inga.html I'm inclined to believe what it says rather than your shipwright. It may be outside his experience and he may not want to build it, but there is lots to say about having shallow draft and a boat that will sail more upright than on her ear. As to the righting moment, not having deep heavy ballast should make her easier feeling than otherwise, not likely to break her spars. She might not be the boat to take around the Horn (more because of stowage capacity than ability) but ocean passages are another thing. The above discussion suggests a 2 person boat and maybe 3 for your ocean passage.

[Capucino]

Hi Thad,

Many thanks for your reply.
It is very encouraging that you think like I do.
Having the choice between a 'Lyle Hess 28' and 'Inga' I thought the latter would be a drier boat and easier to sail solo given a nice set of winches. I also believe that a double-ender would less likely to broach...
Besides, the fact that 'Inga' will sail more upright is very comforting to say the least!
Finally, my best experience at sea was on a 'Westsail 32'. Maybe slightly too big for a lone sailor but the unrivalled sailing ever!!!
We have quite a few shipwrights in England but many more in the U.S.A. if push come to shove...
All the best to all shipmates,
Capucino

[EFHeath]

What does Atkin mean by the following?:
"Also there is no permanent back stay. The latter are badly overrated for wholesome cruising craft, if not downright dangerous."

[skaraborgcraft]

What does Atkin mean by the following?:
"Also there is no permanent back stay. The latter are badly overrated for wholesome cruising craft, if not downright dangerous."

Its an opinion, and you can choose to agree or not. Though there might be some good aspects to a mast that can stand without a permenent backstay and use "running backstays" instead, depending on the rig and crew.

There was an Inga that has spent many years cruising down in the Chile channels, not a place for a boat that is not capable. All boats are a compromise, i would find the shallow draft a bonus. You might find a Martin Heard built Falmouth Working boat for pennies on the pound against building new, unless the build is part of the experience.

[Capucino]

Very good to hear different opinions!
According to John Vigor's 'Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere' a 'Bristol Channel Cutter 28' by Lyle Hess has the greatest safety factor at sea.
Does it mean it is the best boat to sail? Maybe and maybe not...
Here I am more concerned regarding the draft of 'Inga' as being, perhaps, too shallow...
After all, is there such a thing as a perfect sailboat or a perfect skipper? I believe both have to be taken with a pinch of salt...

[navydog]

I imagine Inga would heel over a bit at first then stiffen up as she is heeled over. Using the right amount of sail to keep the boat sailing flat and reducing weather helm is important. If you plan on coastal cruising a 3'6" draft is a real advantage. There were whole fleets of boats with similar hull design using internal ballast and open decks on the Baltic. They were used for the fishing industry. If you want something to sail in a hurricane you probably need to adjust your thinking to something else.

[EFHeath]

Its an opinion, and you can choose to agree or not. Though there might be some good aspects to a mast that can stand without a permanent backstay and use "running backstays" instead, depending on the rig and crew.

I would be unwise for me to "choose to agree or not", since I know absolutely nothing about it. That's why I asked. It would be much appreciated if you would share what those good aspects you mentioned might be. I have never owned a wooden boat, or any kind of boat, and probably never will, other than maybe a kayak. I just like them and want to know more.

[mmd]

Having just looked at the published information and not done any 'number-crunching', I am comfortable saying that it looks to be a fine coastal cruiser. It won't be a screamer around any race courses, but should be a pleasant boat to be on. Given your location, I suspect that your shipwright is more familiar with the deeper designs of the era that were the usual fare on your side of the Atlantic. One type is not better than the other, just different design approaches to the same problem of keeping the boat upright and making way.

[stromborg]

"I was told by a shipwright that her draft is too shallow to be a good seaworthy ocean going craft. Is it possible that such an eminent designer such as Mr Atkin could have made a mistake in designing her?"

I imagine that the tension that exists between house carpenters and architect/engineers also runs through the shipwright/naval architect relationship. Lateral plane, how much and where it should be is one of those subjects of yacht design that baffles me. So many variables!

[Capucino]

Many thanks for all your replies!
Sailing in a hurricane? I reckon a 'submarine' would be better!
I'll take my chances and get on with it and if it turns out problematic in high seas get something else!
It will be a lovely experience to see her coming alive.
All the best to all good shipmates!

[J.Madison]

The design looks plenty seaworthy to me. If you are handy with a planimeter or computer program, you could determine the point of vanishing stability. Ideally this would be over 120 degrees or so, much depends on the CG.

Inga looks like a more affordable and faster boat than the Hess cutter in light airs, but certainly has less room below.

Atkin's statement about the backstay is dated, and I don't think any living designer would agree with him. He was fresh off the era of gaff rigs, and treated his burmudian boats the same way. I have an Ingrid with a very similar arrangement and I long for the security of a fixed backstay. I would add a boomkin and backstay if I were building Inga.

[Capucino]

Many thanks J.Madison. I will follow your advice.
I will be sailing solo most of the time so plenty of room for one!
I already have a full set of plans for 'Inga' and a few meetings lined up with potential shipbuilders.
It will be an exciting undertaking!

[Falcon1]

She looks ideal to me. I hope you share your build progress with us.

Best of luck!

Mike

[John Meachen]

I would guess £160,000 and a year and a half to finish it.If you want to go sailing,there are lots of good boats out there for a lot less.If watching a boat being built exactly as you want it is the point,it can be done.

[J.Madison]

Commissioning a one-off wooden boat is a noble pursuit for anyone inclined. Plenty of people spend that much on factory mass produced plastic, and don't get a whole lot more boat to show for it.

Of course picking up a used boat is much cheaper.

[rayman]

About 3 years ago I met an elderly couple from your country (USA) who were on their second circ. in an Atkin "Inga" so the design must be quite acceptable, also I think they knew how to plan their passages. They chose the design because it allowed them to visit places out of reach of more deeper draft boats.

[Capucino]

I can't 'Thank You' enough to all good shipmates for your replies and good advice!!!
'Inga' is my retirement project (although I am not retiring yet or perhaps ever...) and I intend to to have her built with the very best of everything.
I know of several first-class shipwrights on both sides of the Atlantic that will do an exceptional job and like Rayman above is saying, planning well is most important.
I will be using 'time-lapse' photography from start to finish together with many stills, so all good shipmates, you will be able to enjoy her 'birth' almost as much as I will!
Again, Many Thanks to all good shipmates for your comments!
'To sail with the wind, is to be as free as a bird.' Anon

[J.Madison]

Congratulations on your excellent idea! Since you sound serious, let me expand a bit on my thoughts about the rig. Fractional rigs with large mainsails are coming back into popularity, and for good reason. For long distance cruising though, there are some things to consider. The primary driver is obviously the mainsail, which is the least desirable sail to have up for a long downwind passage in offshore swell due to the constant risk of gybing. One could rig preventers, or stow the main and get some more sail area forward for these type of passages. A genoa with a pole is a good way to sail downwind in a swell, and it will likely want to be a masthead sail to have enough area with the main safely stowed. On Inga, this could be hanked onto the topmast stay, but it would have to be lowered and reset on every tack as the gap is too narrow for the sail to pass through when tacking. A standing backstay would also be warranted to counter the substantial pull of this sail. Moving the sail out onto a short bowsprit is also an option, as is having the sail on a roller furler to wind it up and re-deploy on the other side for each tack. With the small bowsprit, you may then decide to ditch the genoa and just run an asymmetric for downwind and a drifter for upwind in light airs. As it pipes up you could just rely on the staysail, maybe adding some reefed main as necessary.

If all that seems like too much cost or complexity, a largish "baloon staysail" shaped sail set on the inner forestay might give all the oomph needed until the wind is so strong as to just use the staysail. It would only require one extra sail and whisker pole and cover a lot of situations.

If you do add a standing backstay, you may still need something to support the mast from bending where the staysail attaches. This means either keeping the running backstays or adding two jumper struts at the height of the staysail (each splayed about 45 degrees from centerline) and using jumper stays to stiffen the mast and transfer the pull up to the backstay. Some modern boats are going all the way back to the days of Inga and dispensing with the backstay all together and relying on strongly aft swept shrouds alone. Others have the backstay and no jumper struts and use it to adjust mast bend. If it were me, I'd keep the running backstays and use them only when the wind was strong or more luff tension needed on the staysail. I would probably add a smallish retractable sprit to fly light air sails off of, especially when running downwind.

Upwind, the rig is lovely as drawn.

[Capucino]

Dear J Madison,
Many thanks indeed for your invaluable suggestions! These will make a very versatile rig indeed!
It goes without saying that prior the start of the build all ideas will be scrutinised in depth with the shipbuilder in order to get to best possible set-up!
I shall also keep the forum open to be able to discuss any potential hiccups.
I am confident that by choosing a very able shipwright and with the right preparations that things are likely to run fairly smoothly.
Once again, thank you very much indeed to all good shipmates!

[Jay Greer]

There are good points for both of the designs. Atkin was a well respected designer and Lyle Hess knew his stuff as well.
Lyle's design is well proven to be very seaworthy as several have circumnavigated the globe. Speaking of sea worthy, this is a boat that can carry a tremendous spread of canvas for light airs or be shortened down to handle the seas when the weather turns nasty. The boat can be in balance in all winds. Personaly I have no objection to the bow sprit and boomkin as they have many advantages over an inboard rig.
Here is a good description of the merits of the Hess Bristol Channel Cutter 28.
http://bluewaterboats.org/bristol-channel-cutter-28/
So far as to compare the Atkins Inga to the Hess 28, I would not hesitate to say that the Hess design is truly a go anywhere in the world boat while the Atkins is well suited for coastal cruising in home waters. Both are good boats one is more versatile than the other.
Jay

[Capucino]

Hi Jay,
I know it is a difficult choice!
I have been following Lin And Larry Pardey's adventures for many years and a 'Lyle Hess 28' was my first choice.
For all good shipmates who are interested in Lyle Hess' designs, his daughter, Linda De Coux (née Hess), has been a good friend of the Pardey's as can be expected but she has been very ill for several years and no longer replies to inquiries or answers the phone. For anyone interested, I have now a contact to get the study plan or full sets, for the 28 at least, and possibly others.
J. Madison was kind enough to pass on to me what seems to be a lifetime of trials and errors. I intend to put this knowledge to good use...
As I have mentioned already, the best sailing I ever had was aboard a 'Westsail 32'! This is when I fell in love with Mr Atkin's designs.
Anyway, I will have the 'Hess 28' plans shortly...

[skaraborgcraft]

I would be interested in why the shipwright said what he did, he must be from the school of "if it does not have 6ft or draft with a lead weight on the bottom, and cannot sail to windward in a F9, its not ""seaworthy"" "
No doubt a deeper drafted Hess or Heard boat would be capable of sailing closer to the wind and perhaps holding sail a little longer in a blow......but, they might also have to be in an exposed deep anchorage when the shallower draft boat might find far better protection where deep draft can not go. A deep foil is only of real benefit going upwind, the rest of the time its parasitic drag.Always a trade off.......

EFHeath, running backstays double the amount of wire and needed blocks and tackle (if fitted) over a simple fixed single backstay. I have owned boats with both, and would take the fixed backstay everytime. There might also be issues with chafe and and unfortunate gybes causing issues with backstays not let off. As a mostly single-hander, i would avoid them myself. As an example my deck stepped Koster yacht had runners and had a total of 10 stays supporting the mast, all with associated hardware that could fail. My Folkoat, same size, with a keel stepped mast had 4 stays total. My last cruising boat i rigged as a gaff/gunter had only 3 oversize stays, admittedly on a short keel stepped mast. Afree standing mast gets rid of the rigging complications entirely, but that has other issues.....

[wizbang 13]

You do not really want to be going dead downwind in a double ender in any kind of sea. Calm seas only. Hard bilge or soft.

[navydog]

You do not really want to be going dead downwind in a double ender in any kind of sea. Calm seas only. Hard bilge or soft.

Wiz, care to elaborate?

[Capucino]

Hi all good shipmates,
I really appreciate your time giving me advice!
I have pretty much set my mind on 'Inga' and with a first class shipwright I am very confident the end results will be good enough to enjoy her for the rest of my life!
After all, each design has good and not so good attributes and I believe that getting to know how to make the best of one or another is part of the challenge and beauty of sailing.
Fair wind to all good shipmates!

[Thad]

Personally, I like a long boom and running backstays.

[Jay Greer]

I agree with you Thad! We added running backs to our H28 "Bright Star". They are made up of Dameena Cordage and work extremely well! In medium to heavy airs there is no sag in the jib stay and the mast ceases to pump in the chop! When we go for the new rig all wire will be replaced with the feather weight and next to no stretch Dameena. Oh did I mention that it is not effected by UV?
Jay

[Jay Greer]

Wiz, care to elaborate?

Don't let any Vikings know how you feel Whiz!
Jay

[wizbang 13]

eh , Rolling.
Long booms hit the sea .
No cooking, no sleeping.
Every item on the vessel that can move a quarter of an inch side to side combines to a cacophony .
Has no one here sailed on the ocean?
I'm not talking about apparent wind being too light going straight downwind in protected water, but seas.
Did Vikings sail dead downwind? How would they do with their rails going under over and over and over. I think they would learn to point up a bit to a broad reach.

[Neverland]

sailing a double-ender downwind in 20-25kts, Lake Superior, 6-10' seas, while sleeping.
https://youtu.be/k8iAwKLCcgM

[Aquinian]

Beaut video, Neverland!

Is that a Wetsnail 32?

[Capucino]

Thanks a million 'Neverland'!!!
Your video put a big smile on my face and made my day!
Sailing on silk practically all by herself... Simply MAGIC!!!
'Inga' is making me dreaming like never before!
Fair wind to all my good shipmates!!!

[wizbang 13]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/wizban...posted-public/

Neverland is going nicely indeed. I do not have a vid of Woody goin downwind in seas, cuz I do not do it, but here is a roughish day in the ec.

[skaraborgcraft]

"invalid signature" on your link Bruce.