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Thread: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

  1. #1
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    Default New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    I note on this crossed my desk, so I went looking for an article.

    Manhattan plans to build a massive $1 billion wall and park to guard against the next inevitable superstorm

    Today, more than five years after Hurricane Sandy hit New York City, the five boroughs are still recovering from the storm.

    Sandy did $19 billion in damage to NYC, and the rate of development along the city's coastlines has only increased. New York now has more residents living in high-risk flood zones than any other city in the nation.

    Local city-planning experts have worried how NYC will cope when the next superstorm inevitably hits the city.

    So in 2013, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) held an open call for proposals that would make NYC more resilient against flooding and future storms. The competition, called Rebuild By Design, awarded funding to seven winners — one being a massive barrier along the southern end of Manhattan.

    Called the BIG U and designed by Bjarke Ingels Group (BIG), the ambitious project calls for a series of levees, a floodwall, and a park that would help protect the island from inundation. One of BIG's lead designers, Jeremy Siegel, told Business Insider that the project is moving forward, and construction will begin in spring 2019.

    So far, HUD and the City of New York have given nearly $1 billion toward its implementation.
    I'm not saying they won't need it. I'm just saying that this is a particularly uncomfortable look at the future.

    You can see and read more:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/new-...-implemented-2

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Is the ocean going to pay for it?
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Canute comes to mind. As do stories of little Dutch boys with fingers in dikes.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Kinda like the Thames Barrier?
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    House boats?

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    Is the ocean going to pay for it?
    SPEW!!
    Quick get a towel!
    PaulF

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    $19 billion in damage last time? Gotta do something - though wonder how much they can mitigate this sort of damage.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    $19 billion in damage last time? Gotta do something - though wonder how much they can mitigate this sort of damage.
    In the end, the Sea is one of the most powerful forces on this planet. It has the mass, all the time in the world and is solar powered.

    It will do as it damn well pleases, we may delay, for a bit, but it will win in the end.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Canute comes to mind. As do stories of little Dutch boys with fingers in dikes.
    Dutch engineers have been very successful at keeping the sea at bay, maybe import a few of them. The'll know what to do about this.
    In the meantime, any major road works on low lying coastal roads includes a missive from central government to raise the level of the roads in anticipation of sea level rise. They've almost completed one stretch of 6 lane freeway, lifting it two metres. There are more to come.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Good thing cities are dealing with this, too bad the president and his enablers can’t plan and protect on a federal level.

    https://www.citylab.com/environment/...ooding/538203/

    Little noticed at the time was an item that now belongs at the forefront. On August 15, Trump signed an executive order rolling back various environmental rules in order to streamline approvals for infrastructure projects. One of them was an Obama-era order that established a federal infrastructure standard to reduce the risk of flooding damage.
    .
    .
    The Obama rule gave federal agencies three ways to address flood risk in design and construction in floodplains: using methods informed by climate science, building two feet above the 100-year flood elevation, or building to the 500-year flood elevation.

    https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...on-outer-banks

    In the newest National Climate Assessment, published last fall, U.S. government scientists warned that global warming was intensifying and increasing the frequency of extreme rainstorms that cause devastating flooding. Hurricane rainfall and intensity are also likely to increase, as are the frequency and severity of "atmospheric rivers" of rain on the West Coast, like the event that drenched California last month, triggering flash floods and mudslides. Sea-level rise also makes storm surges more dangerous.

    But FEMA hasn't taken climate change into account when creating flooding maps.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...=.2f39e5319edc

    White House officials barred a State Department intelligence agency from submitting written testimony this week to the House Intelligence Committee warning that human-caused climate change is “possibly catastrophic.” The move came after State officials refused to excise the document’s references to federal scientific findings on climate change.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Dutch engineers have been very successful at keeping the sea at bay, maybe import a few of them. The'll know what to do about this.
    In the meantime, any major road works on low lying coastal roads includes a missive from central government to raise the level of the roads in anticipation of sea level rise. They've almost completed one stretch of 6 lane freeway, lifting it two metres. There are more to come.

    John Welsford
    I had the pleasure of working with Delft Hydraulic Lab from the Netherlands, Big projects like this are their bailiwick. I worked with them on the Elwha Dam removal in Olympic National park.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Providence RI built hurricane barriers after they got blasted in the 1938 hurricane. It works.

    Doing something in NYC is better than doing nothing.
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Providence RI built hurricane barriers after they got blasted in the 1938 hurricane. It works.

    Doing something in NYC is better than doing nothing.
    Absolutely. We have managed to speed up the Sea level rise so we will need to act fast.

    The current political system will be a drag on the whole process.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    If the renderings of the East River are an indication of the engineer's understanding of the river they've got a problem. Those placid, luffing sailboats are going to be caught in river's current which I found more demanding than Wood's Hole. Surely they know that.

    But the city has to try something, even if it's just a base plan for the future.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Good thing cities are dealing with this, too bad the president and his enablers can’t plan and protect on a federal level.

    https://www.citylab.com/environment/...ooding/538203/

    Little noticed at the time was an item that now belongs at the forefront. On August 15, Trump signed an executive order rolling back various environmental rules in order to streamline approvals for infrastructure projects. One of them was an Obama-era order that established a federal infrastructure standard to reduce the risk of flooding damage.
    .
    .
    The Obama rule gave federal agencies three ways to address flood risk in design and construction in floodplains: using methods informed by climate science, building two feet above the 100-year flood elevation, or building to the 500-year flood elevation.

    https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...on-outer-banks

    In the newest National Climate Assessment, published last fall, U.S. government scientists warned that global warming was intensifying and increasing the frequency of extreme rainstorms that cause devastating flooding. Hurricane rainfall and intensity are also likely to increase, as are the frequency and severity of "atmospheric rivers" of rain on the West Coast, like the event that drenched California last month, triggering flash floods and mudslides. Sea-level rise also makes storm surges more dangerous.

    But FEMA hasn't taken climate change into account when creating flooding maps.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...=.2f39e5319edc

    White House officials barred a State Department intelligence agency from submitting written testimony this week to the House Intelligence Committee warning that human-caused climate change is “possibly catastrophic.” The move came after State officials refused to excise the document’s references to federal scientific findings on climate change.
    I suspect that insurance companies will have very clear views on that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    In the end, the Sea is one of the most powerful forces on this planet. It has the mass, all the time in the world and is solar powered.

    It will do as it damn well pleases, we may delay, for a bit, but it will win in the end.
    Not as powerful as Trumpster

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Dutch engineers have been very successful at keeping the sea at bay, maybe import a few of them. The'll know what to do about this.
    In the meantime, any major road works on low lying coastal roads includes a missive from central government to raise the level of the roads in anticipation of sea level rise. They've almost completed one stretch of 6 lane freeway, lifting it two metres. There are more to come.

    John Welsford
    Bjarke Ingels Group had the winning design. They're from Copenhagen, but I believe they have Dutch on staff.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Not as powerful as Trumpster
    Right. Him and King Canute.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    down here in Southern New Jersey, the shore towns are quietly raising their kerbs and sidewalks to deal with the ever more often tidal flooding. it won't stop the next super storm, but it keeps the extra ordinary flood tides at bay.

    I actually got into an argument about this with a friend of a friend a few weeks ago. When I was little, the town I grew up in got a little flooded on the spring and fall tides. Nothing major, the end of our street would have some water on it. A few years later, it reached the top of the hydrant and into the middle of our street. It was not too many years after that water began lapping at our driveway during these flood tides. I moved out of my parents house soon after and they sold not long after.

    I was told by this friend of a friend that the ever increasing tides were caused by land subsidence, not rising oceans. When I pulled up a few scientific papers on the subject, including one from Rutgers who study it a lot.. he dismissed those as being leftist elites who are just out for more funding. I broke off all contact at that point
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I suspect that insurance companies will have very clear views on that.
    Insurance companies here have started a policy of risk based premiums according to location. Thats currently low lying coastal and known earthquake fault zones. Some people simply cant afford the massive rises in their premiums so are buying part cover that excludes those risks. I think we're going to see a lot more of that.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Living near an eroding coast I get exasperated by claims of a policy of "managed retreat". Quite how you mange to account for the vagaries of storm surges and occasional storms I cannot begin to comprehend and I seriously doubt that the bureaucrats have a clue,but it makes it appear that they are sort of in control.On the other side of the North Sea they definitely have a more active approach and it works.Maybe our mob need to have an attitude adjustment,or a house and office by the beach.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    "White House officials barred a State Department intelligence agency from submitting written testimony this week to the House Intelligence Committee warning that human-caused climate change is “possibly catastrophic.” The move came after State officials refused to excise the document’s references to federal scientific findings on climate change."

    That needed quoting again. You better hope that donald, and more importantly the republican senate, do not get another term.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I suspect that insurance companies will have very clear views on that.
    The problem is the National Flood Insurance Program is underfunded as well as Trumps dumbass decisions.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nati...urance_Program

    This NFIP is designed to provide an insurance alternative to disaster assistance to meet the escalating costs of repairing damage to buildings and their contents caused by floods.[1] As of August 2017, the program insured about 5 million homes (down from about 5.5 million homes in April 2010), the majority of which are in Texas and Florida.[2][3] The cost of the insurance program was fully covered by its premiums until the end of 2004, but has had to steadily borrow funds since (primarily due to Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy), accumulating $25 billion of debt by August 2017.[2][4]
    .
    .

    According to critics of the program, the government's subsidized insurance plan "encouraged building, and rebuilding, in vulnerable coastal areas and floodplains."[58] Stephen Ellis, of the group Taxpayers for Common Sense, points to "properties that flooded 17 or 18 times that were still covered under the federal insurance program" without premiums going up.[58]
    .
    .
    President Obama on January 30, 2015 issued Executive Order 13690 requiring Flood Risk Management to anticipate flooding increases over time due to the effects of climate change. A peer review study finds climate change since 1900 may have increased the probability of extreme precipitation events like the August 2016 flooding in south Louisiana.[60] President Trump on August 15, 2017 issued Executive Order 13807 whose Section 6 revokes President Obama’s Executive Order 13690.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    There are a few places here in Oz that are putting in coastal erosion control measures. It’s mostly local councils and none of it seems to be large scale as yet. So it is heartening to see somewhere taking it seriously.
    To do something good
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    The estuary where I sail is undergoing major changes caused largely by increased wave heights in Bass Strait and subsequent erosion, but half the town is built on sand that wasn't there a few hundred years ago. A change in the prevailing wind direction from west to east as a result of changing weather patterns is also part of the problem as it pushes the river up against the town.
    The old bar has collapsed and moved inside the estuary, and wave heights in the estuary have seen surf 2 K upstream.
    We are monitoring developments this winter as they will likely impact on our already difficult sailing ground in the coming season. Safety on a high tide may become a problem.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Good for NYC, on solid igneous and metamorphic rock, they have a chance for success. Think about Miami, they’re dealing with a porous limestone base, like building on a sponge — they’re screwed.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Dutch engineers have been very successful at keeping the sea at bay, maybe import a few of them. The'll know what to do about this.
    In the meantime, any major road works on low lying coastal roads includes a missive from central government to raise the level of the roads in anticipation of sea level rise. They've almost completed one stretch of 6 lane freeway, lifting it two metres. There are more to come.

    John Welsford
    Unfortunately, my country has lost it's will to do anything except build weapons.
    New Orleans has had Dutch engineers propose plans time after time for 40 years.

    Nada.
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    @Art don't cut people like that off, just ask them if anyone is asking for funding to build the town back up after the land subsides.

    Not talking about your friend in particular, but in general I don't feel we can afford to deliberately disengage with people about this any more. We cannot afford enabling the fantasy by ignoring those who espouse it, we need to engage with them. That's really hard, but having your whole town washed away is harder, and that is coming soon.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Sarnia Yacht Club is considering building a higher wall to hold back Lake Huron.

    SYC-High_Water-0186.jpg

    SYC-High_Water-0185.jpg
    Allan of the Grove
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    There are a few places here in Oz that are putting in coastal erosion control measures. Itís mostly local councils and none of it seems to be large scale as yet. So it is heartening to see somewhere taking it seriously.
    That's an uninformed comment. And it is incorrect.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    I've posted this photo of the Batavia Docks in Jakarta before. There are some who say the land sinking is the cause of the inundation....

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Land subsidy may well be part of it. Jakarta and Manilla are subject to severe subsidence, mostly caused by the draining of the aquifers beneath the towns. The flats around my end of Western Port Bay, and ultimately Port Phillip are being slowly forced under the Anderson Hills, an uplift zone. Add that to erosion and several hundred meters of land including two old town sites and the original coast road are now out in the bay.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Figment, the ocean isn't going to pay for it, it will demand payment for it.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    The problem is the National Flood Insurance Program is underfunded
    That is one way to view the issue. Perhaps we should base premiums on risk.

    Of course, if we do that, those along the coast will not be able to afford insurance coverage. Which I find acceptable.

    Insurance only works when a large number of individuals have a small risk of a large loss. But when they have a large risk of a large loss, no one should want to provide insurance.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: New York is building a wall to hold back the sea?

    When you talk of coastal property and insurance, many large cities are 'coastal property' and will be effected largely. And it's not just the stuff on the surface, nearly all the services and pipes etc are underground, and maybe under water.

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