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Thread: The United States is one long civil war

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    Default The United States is one long civil war

    In a January 2019 New York Times interview, King asked, "White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization how did that language become offensive?" He also said of the large increase in representation of minorities and women in the new Democrat-controlled House: "You could look over there and think the Democratic Party is no country for white men."

    -- wikipedia
    The New Orleans Crescent declared that "it is our general belief, fixed and unalterable, that this country was discovered by white men, peopled by white men, defended by white men, and owned by white men, and it is our settled purpose that none but white men shall participate in its government."

    Brenda Wineapple, The Impeachers (2019) p. 141
    The comments are 150 years apart, but both are after the Civil War, as was this, by the President of the United States, who succeeded to the office by reason of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln:

    This is a country for white men and, by God, as long as I am president it shall be a government for white men. -- Andrew Johnson

    ibid p. 83
    If a Civil War and 150 years can't change it, it can't be changed, for practical purposes. The attitude and then the policy must shift to vigilant containment.

    In a sense the Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about racism, and it's still on. We've pushed the racists out of the law, to an extent, although they're creeping back in . . . because we've let them. Because we've tolerated ignorant bigotry. The cost has been staggering. Even after we stop tolerating it, we'll go on paying the cost. So decide how much longer you want this on long war to go on. Another 200 years?
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    If a Civil War and 150 years can't change it, it can't be changed, for practical purposes.
    Excuse me? Yes, you could find people advocating those ideas in 1867, and you can find them now. The difference - and it a very, very real difference - is that in 1867 it was conventional wisdom (among white men), or at least a very commonly-held opinion. These days, you have to go pretty far to find someone who believes it, and advocating it too loudly in public will make most people think very badly of you. It's not very glamorous to say that progress is statistical, but it's true.

    Not to condone recent efforts to revive old horrors in the slightest, and of course we need to keep working; we've got a good long way to go.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-10-2019 at 02:09 PM.
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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Excuse me? Yes, you could find people advocating those ideas in 1867, and you can find them now. The difference - and it a very, very real difference - is that in 1867 it was conventional wisdom (among white men), or at least a very commonly-held opinion. These days, you have to go pretty far to find someone who believes it, and advocating it too loud in public will make most people think very badly of you.
    I disagree with your comments.

    If you look at any statistics, you will find white men have won. The current opinion of white men appears to be they - at least those in the 19% below the 1%, are the oppressed.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    It's not very glamorous to say that progress is statistical, but it's true.
    If so, it does nothing for the victims.

    The statistics are a product of a change in the nation's moral character. How would show, by statistics, progress in the period from Obama's presidency to now?

    If you contend the war is over, when did it end?
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Just finished Walter Isaacson's Benjamin Franklin and can assure you that this battle has gone on far longer than a few hundred years and not only in the USA.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    "The New Orleans Crescent declared that "it is our general belief, fixed and unalterable, that this country was discovered by white men, peopled by white men, defended by white men, and owned by white men, and it is our settled purpose that none but white men shall participate in its government."

    Brenda Wineapple, The Impeachers (2019) p. 141"

    Wrong, wrong, wrong, just as the same racist process was perpetrated in Australia on a settled people.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "The New Orleans Crescent declared that "it is our general belief, fixed and unalterable, that this country was discovered by white men, peopled by white men, defended by white men, and owned by white men, and it is our settled purpose that none but white men shall participate in its government."

    Brenda Wineapple, The Impeachers (2019) p. 141"

    Wrong, wrong, wrong, just as the same racist process was perpetrated in Australia on a settled people.
    I bet our racists beat yours for sheer absurdity. Like, if the white man did everything, why did he need to import four million slaves?
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Just finished Walter Isaacson's Benjamin Franklin and can assure you that this battle has gone on far longer than a few hundred years and not only in the USA.
    AFAIK the US is unique in making it a matter of civil war.

    From the colonial legislatures through the civil war to today, a plain, straight line.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    If this country was peopled by white men, why did Andrew Jackson have to use the Army to move out the native Americans.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson
    Excuse me? Yes, you could find people advocating those ideas in 1867, and you can find them now. The difference - and it a very, very real difference - is that in 1867 it was conventional wisdom (among white men), or at least a very commonly-held opinion. These days, you have to go pretty far to find someone who believes it...
    Is that so? Maybe in Minnesota. I have known people throughout my lifetime who hold that opinion. And I’ve never had to go any farther than my workplace.

    ...and advocating it too loudly in public will make most people think very badly of you.
    Unlike in 1867, in 2019 they tend to be careful about where and when they express such opinions. But they have become more emboldened recently. Barack Obama really shook them up and Trump has reinvigorated them.
    "Trump's authoritarianism is a feature not a bug." -- Sky Blue

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Perhaps I put it too strongly, but one way or another, the percentage of folks holding such opinions is dramatically less than it was in 1867.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Unlike in 1867, in 2019 they tend to be careful about where and when they express such opinions. But they have become more emboldened recently. Barack Obama really shook them up and Trump has reinvigorated them.
    All too true, alas.

    My point was to warn against binary thinking; is or isn't, yes or no - when reality involving lots of people is almost always better described by more or less, 67% then, 5% now. Obviously the effects of centuries of slavery and a Civil War to end it haven't entirely gone away. As we've talked about, after 1877 a whole lot of southern white folks did their best to make things as much like they were before the war as they could, and we're now in another period where the reactionaries are coming out of the woodwork. But neither are things anywhere near like they were in 1950, or 1867. History casts a long shadow, but real changes to happen - and one reason we're seeing the reactionaries getting so loud lately is they're terrified by the real changes that are occuring.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-11-2019 at 08:37 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    AFAIK the US is unique in making it a matter of civil war.

    From the colonial legislatures through the civil war to today, a plain, straight line.
    . . .
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Unlike in 1867, in 2019 they tend to be careful about where and when they express such opinions. But they have become more emboldened recently. Barack Obama really shook them up and Trump has reinvigorated them.
    A quick internet search indicates that black people are not doing well in the economy. They have not been doing well for a very long time. It is difficult to believe that black people are unable to prosper in the more liberal areas. Yet they don't.

    Many liberals express their opinions by their collective actions. Their opinions of blacks seem to be in line with those who are more vocal.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    AFAIK the US is unique in making it a matter of civil war.
    Haiti.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Those darn liberals.
    "Trump's authoritarianism is a feature not a bug." -- Sky Blue

    "Thanks to FOX, talk radio, and the internet, the truth is available to all." -- mdh



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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Perhaps I put it too strongly, but one way or another, the percentage of folks holding such opinions is dramatically less than it was in 1867.
    Trouble with that is, the data is suspect because they don't tell the truth. Containment becomes a victim of its own success, inducing complacency. Everything seems so normal until . . .

    That's why it's important to keep up the containment, and to do that, you have to remember why: because the war's not over.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Haiti.
    I looked that up. They went on a kill whitey jag, spared some; in any case, they declared to Haiti to be a black person's country. Some similarities. Actually it seems more to resemble the French Revolution. I don't know that it started in racism which still continues.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post

    That's why it's important to keep up the containment, and to do that, you have to remember why: because the war's not over.
    I think that you have that backwards.

    The war's not over. That's why it's important to keep up the containment, and to do that, you have to remember why: because those attitudes are not civilised, they demean the society that allows them.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Those darn liberals.
    They are devilish.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    The guy who helped me at the lumber yard this afternoon was wearing a T-shirt with the likeness of Jefferson Davis on the back.
    Skip

    ---This post is delivered with righteous passion and with a solemn southern directness --
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    Default Re: The United States is one long civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    The guy who helped me at the lumber yard this afternoon was wearing a T-shirt with the likeness of Jefferson Davis on the back.
    No text? Sure it wasn't Buddy Ebsen?
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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