Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Stavanger, Norway
    Posts
    118

    Default Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    My next project - after Swallow Yacht's Storm 19, Vivier's Jewell, Lilistone's Phoenix III will be a cuddy cabin trimaran sailboat. It will be a departure from the more traditional gaff, mizzen, lug and gunter.

    My trimaran should be able to have folding or detachable floats.

    Intended use is single handed sailing off the coast of Stavanger, Norway (occasionally with friends and family)

    So far I have found:

    Astus 20.5

    Tricat 20

    W22

    I have also looked at Dragonfly 25 and Corsair 760, both being on the large side.

    Astus and Tricat are french production boats; W22 is a design.

    I do not intend to build myself.

    Any other suggestions?
    Last edited by kleppar; 06-10-2019 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oslofjorden
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Checked the seaclipper 20?
    Ragnar B.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, Virginia - USA
    Posts
    2,097

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    Any other suggestions?
    Night Heron by the late Thomas Firth Jones - folding, cuddy cabin, relatively inexpensive to have built.
    http://www.jonesboatstuckahoe.com/index.html

    Read the write-up in the book

    Read the write-up in this book:


    I'd also recommend taking a look at some of Richard Wood's stuff.

    Good luck!
    Dave

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,485

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    State of the art is the F-22. I believe you can still buy the kit -- all the fiberglass moldings are done, you just have to bond them together and bolt on the hardware. Yeah, and a few more items. But you get a lot of boat for the money. These boats are extremely refined and well engineered, being the culmination of a lifetime of work on the type by Ian Farrier.

    BTW, Ian died in December of 2017. The folks at the factory said production would continue, but the website doesn't seem to have been updated. They were purchased by Daedalus Yachts, but I haven't seen an update since. I hope they're still in business, these are great boats. I had an F-27, the first Farrier boat to go into production.

    Last edited by Woxbox; 06-10-2019 at 12:35 PM.
    -Dave

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    907

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Look at the Strike 18, by Richard Woods. The idea is to take an outdated catamaran and build only the central hull. The rig, hulls, one rudder comes from the donor boat. Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    We had a meet of the Dinghy Cruising Assoc here a year or so ago and two guys turned up with an Astus. Sailed very well and the cross beams slide to narrow it down for towing. The 'cabin' looked quite cramped for two, but they managed. Looked well made and rigged. I was a bit surprised at the price, but I am way out of date on things like that...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Trenton, ME
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    F22 plans are only available second hand. Factory hull #30 was recently completed. If plans were located - many were sold but few boats were built - it would still require the factory folding mechanism. Small Trimarans and More Small Trimarans cover many designs. My Constant Camber 23 has a cuddy of sorts but is really a day sailer. The Tremolino is a proven design and plans are still available http://dicknewickboats.com/tremolino/. A used F24 would be an excellent boat as well .
    Last edited by cyclone; 06-10-2019 at 06:15 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,690

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Night Heron by the late Thomas Firth Jones - folding, cuddy cabin, relatively inexpensive to have built.
    http://www.jonesboatstuckahoe.com/index.html

    Read the write-up in the book

    Read the write-up in this book:


    I'd also recommend taking a look at some of Richard Wood's stuff.

    Good luck!
    Dave
    That book, however, contains some claims about the performance of Firth Jones' boats that seems to be greatly exaggerated. For example, if one of his claims about speed is true, his Night Heron or cruising cat with dacron sails would apparently have been faster than a 20ft twin-trapeze Olympic Tornado catamaran under spinnaker or a 25ft wing masted C Class cat which is made of carbon. That's a silly thing to claim. So too is his claim that his little 24 foot cruising cat is about 2.5 times the speed of an H28. If so, that would make this old ply cruiser faster than larger modern carbon-masted racing multis.

    There are other claims that really show his bias and tendency to gross exaggeration and to make derogatory and dubious remarks about other boats and sailors. If his claims about performance are so dubious, what can be said about his other claims?
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-11-2019 at 05:28 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat



    https://chantiermer.wordpress.com/productions/tricky/

    Montaubin's Tricky.

    You might be looking for more boat. 360kg. I don't know if it folds. Rig looks less expensive than most trimarans. I think it was entered in the design competition Woodenboat had, the one that the folding Marples DC3 one. That's another one that looks handy but more boat. Could probably use the same simple folding mechanism. Henseval had a nice trimaran but he's off the radar at present.

    CLC Madness for the win if you've got room to turn it close in. Kitable if your having this one built again. One day it might all end in tears, but you'd get some pretty amazing memories before that happened on the perfect days. Long, thin and minimal, the Norse gods would surely approve.

    Multihulls can have expensive rigs. Woods approach of repurposing an old cat saves alot of cost if you have them to hand and are looking for a small boat and cheap thrills. I bought a set of Marples small tri plans and was impressed by the detail and completeness.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-11-2019 at 08:35 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Posts
    110

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Scarab Trimarans have several sizes in the range, though you'd have to pay a builder if you're not keen to build a boat yourself.
    If 22ft is the goal, they have this one : http://www.teamscarab.com.au/scarab22/design.html
    Or could go to 18ft or even 16ft versions, depending on the number of crew you expect to have, 16ft sleeps 2, 22ft sleeps 4.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, Virginia - USA
    Posts
    2,097

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Chris249: That book, however, contains some claims about the performance of Firth Jones' boats that seems to be greatly exaggerated. For example, if one of his claims about speed is true, his Night Heron or cruising cat with dacron sails would apparently have been faster than a 20ft twin-trapeze Olympic Tornado catamaran under spinnaker or a 25ft wing masted C Class cat which is made of carbon. That's a silly thing to claim. So too is his claim that his little 24 foot cruising cat is about 2.5 times the speed of an H28. If so, that would make this old ply cruiser faster than larger modern carbon-masted racing multis.

    There are other claims that really show his bias and tendency to gross exaggeration and to make derogatory and dubious remarks about other boats and sailors. If his claims about performance are so dubious, what can be said about his other claims?
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-11-2019 at 06:28 AM.
    Hmm, Mr Jones wrote "The H-28 has about the same wetted surface area as Brine Shrimp {the 24' cat}, but I'll warrant that Shrimp will sail three miles to her two in light weather, and of course four to her two in a real sailing breeze." p.139
    H28 hull speed is roughly 6.47kts, so the Brine Shrimp would have to go 13kts in heavy air.
    Considering that even the thoroughly obsolete Hobie 14 can do about 20kts {https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10664}, and that a Brine Shrimp weighs about 9,000 lbs less than an H28, then Jones' speed claim doesn't seem at all unreasonable or exaggerated.

    Furthermore, Mr Jones wrote :"I would think that all the boats in this chapter except narrow Weekender could come close to 15kts on occasion, although none could average it for an hour, let alone for a day." p151
    Considering that the Tornado is capable of 33+kts {https://www.tornado-class.org/the-cl...class-history/}, it seems like Mr Jones was making well considered and likely accurate claims, rather than gross exaggerations.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Stavanger, Norway
    Posts
    118

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Any thoughts on the best ama folding system; I have found:
    * Farrier/Corsair style folding down and inwards
    * Tricat/Dragonfly swinging backwards
    * Astus (and probably others) sliding tubes
    Then there are other methods which take longer time (such as Dragonfly 800), and are more detachable.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    907

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    all these boats are so small that you will sail best alone or with one other person. We found that when we took 3 friends with us we sailed much slower in our Wizard, designed by Richard Woods, and that also might be a candidate. It is considered by some the ultimate trailer/sailer. Frank

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,485

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    [/INDENT]Hmm, Mr Jones wrote "The H-28 has about the same wetted surface area as Brine Shrimp {the 24' cat}, but I'll warrant that Shrimp will sail three miles to her two in light weather, and of course four to her two in a real sailing breeze." p.139
    H28 hull speed is roughly 6.47kts, so the Brine Shrimp would have to go 13kts in heavy air.
    Considering that even the thoroughly obsolete Hobie 14 can do about 20kts {https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10664}, and that a Brine Shrimp weighs about 9,000 lbs less than an H28, then Jones' speed claim doesn't seem at all unreasonable or exaggerated.

    Furthermore, Mr Jones wrote :"I would think that all the boats in this chapter except narrow Weekender could come close to 15kts on occasion, although none could average it for an hour, let alone for a day." p151
    Considering that the Tornado is capable of 33+kts {https://www.tornado-class.org/the-cl...class-history/}, it seems like Mr Jones was making well considered and likely accurate claims, rather than gross exaggerations.

    I recall Jones being derided for his claims back when he was promoting them. That trimaran looks pretty crude compared to work by the likes of Marples, Brown and Farrier. There was an article written by Jones' wife many years ago that was hilarious. She wrote about everything that went wrong on a short cruise in one of his boats, and I think it was the Brine Shrimp. Most likely it was printed in MAIB, but I don't have the back issues to track it down.

    The OP says he doesn't want to build the boat himself. On the used market there are a few T-Gulls around. But I don't know that any found their way to Europe. This was a manufactured evolution of the Tremolino, built by the Tremolino Boat Co. They have swing wings and are designed to be light and very easy to rig and launch.

    -Dave

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    9,278

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    I had an F-27, the first Farrier boat to go into production.
    Actually the second (or third, depending on how you want to figure it). The first production fiberglass Farrier was the 19.5' "Tramp" in Australia, also built in Texas and marketed here as the "Eagle". We really enjoyed the one we had, and with a huge cockpit it sailed quite comfortably with up to four people on board. The cuddy was minimal, but it had a big cockpit tent which covered the entire cockpit, including the two bench seats which were each about 7' long. The folding system worked beautifully and the original Tramp was tested for seaworthiness by sailing it around Australia.

    (This is the type of sails I used to make before I turned "traditional")
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,485

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Right, Todd. I'd totally forgotten about that boat.
    -Dave

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,690

    Default Re: Cuddy cabin Trimaran sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    [/INDENT]Hmm, Mr Jones wrote "The H-28 has about the same wetted surface area as Brine Shrimp {the 24' cat}, but I'll warrant that Shrimp will sail three miles to her two in light weather, and of course four to her two in a real sailing breeze." p.139
    H28 hull speed is roughly 6.47kts, so the Brine Shrimp would have to go 13kts in heavy air.
    Considering that even the thoroughly obsolete Hobie 14 can do about 20kts {https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10664}, and that a Brine Shrimp weighs about 9,000 lbs less than an H28, then Jones' speed claim doesn't seem at all unreasonable or exaggerated.

    Furthermore, Mr Jones wrote :"I would think that all the boats in this chapter except narrow Weekender could come close to 15kts on occasion, although none could average it for an hour, let alone for a day." p151
    Considering that the Tornado is capable of 33+kts {https://www.tornado-class.org/the-cl...class-history/}, it seems like Mr Jones was making well considered and likely accurate claims, rather than gross exaggerations.
    With respect, Dave, claims are not evidence. An H28 has a PHRF of around 280. Using the normal conversion ratios, we see that if the BS can "sail three miles to her two in light weather" that means the BS can sail to a PHRF of -8 in light winds, which makes the little ply cruising cat a minute a mile faster than much newer F27 and F22 tris, and similar in speed to the carbon wingmasted F25C or the Olympic Tornado. Errrr, nope.

    Using other popular handicapping systems shows that if the claim is true, the little ply cruising cat is FASTER than the 20ft Olympic Tornado which is less than a quarter of the weight, with trapeze etc. And that's not even entering into the heavy-air comparison but put it this way - if TFJ is true his 23 foot ply cruiser could be faster in a breeze than the 40 foot carbon wing-masted open-bridgedeck racing Extreme 40 and Formula 40 cats. Errrr, nope. Modern designers and their clients are not brain-dead morons, which is the only way that Firth Jones' little old boat could be comparable to the modern carbon boats.

    Secondly, comparing an H28's hull speed to the top end claims of the multis is an apples to eggs comparison. It's been claimed that an H28 can hit 8.5 and that a Folkboat (which has a lower hull speed than the H28 and a slower PHRF rating) has averaged 9 knots for hours and hit 10.7 knots. So if the BS is twice as fast as a Folkboat which has averaged 9 knots for hours the BS must be capable of 18 knots for hours, which Jones says it can't. And if the H28 can hit 8.5 knots then the BS can hit 17, which Jones implies it cannot. So we cannot logically believe everyone's claims because they are contradictory. If we are going to try to weigh each claim against each other then why favour the man who is trying to sell his designs over the H28 sailor with no financial incentive, or the expertise of the world's fastest Folkboat racer?

    The Tornado claim of 33 knots is completely unsubstantiated and I can find no basis for it. I used to run a class website and I could have just as easily claimed my class did 4,2253 knots! Incidentally one guy who promotes one of my classes makes completely over the top claims for speed. He's a great guy but proof that you can't believe unsubstantiated marketing hype.

    I have sailed an Olympic medallist's Tornado and with a two-time Tornado national champ and the claims of 33 knots seem way over the top. The top speed for a Tornado that is substantiated by independent observers seems to have been that of Olympic medallists Bundock and Forbes (about 23.48 at a special speed event in Bermuda) and Yves Loday, who got 22.5 knots over a 500m course. I note that a quick Google shows that the speed at the Bermuda event has been exaggerated by about 10 knots by some people, which could be where the "33 knot" claim came from. The carbon wingsailed C Class cats are much bigger, much faster, and had a top speed of 23 knots according to an article by C-Class designer Steve Killing.

    GPS instantaneous speeds (as claimed by the Hobie guy before he crashed) are NOT reliable - the problems are well documented by the enormously popular GPS speedsailing crowd. See for example https://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/def...=item&item=GTx and https://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/def...&item=gpsother. Hobie 14s have never scored that sort of speed at formal speedsailing events.

    Finally, if we are going to just accept the written claims of designers then we must accept that the Jones boats are slugs - because Piver claimed that his smaller cat could do 40 knots (!) and that his 25 foot Nugget was capable of sailing a thousand miles in a single day in the right conditions (!!!!!!!). And Nicol claimed that his wooden tri from the 1960s could do 27 knots upwind. All total rubbish, of course, but ample proof that designer's claims can often be complete hype and therefore should be closely examined.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-11-2019 at 08:47 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •