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Thread: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    I'd nip it off if I heard a ships horn blasting like that.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Yes, engaged while the skipper went to the head.
    All the more reason to pee over the side.

    And on that ferry run, you can see the ferry from dock to dock. So look around before you pop below with the auto pilot running the boat.

    I am surprised that there has not been a collision between a yacht and cruise ship in Puget Sound. During the season, there is a parade of cruise ships heading out from Seattle. The ships dwarf the ferries and move much faster than you would think. All it will take is a yacht cutting across the path of one or somebody running on auto pilot.

    There are now warning signs on the ferries:

    IMG_20170309_142614843.jpg
    Last edited by Bobcat; 06-15-2019 at 09:17 AM.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I'd nip it off if I heard a ships horn blasting like that.

    Indeed. But the lesson for me is that one can't assume that any other boat on the water is keeping a proper lookout. Or that they know and understand the relevant sections of COLREGS or any other regulations that may be in effect on the body of water in question. It also seems to me that many boaters confuse the concept of "stand on vessel" with "stand your ground", and act accordingly. There is always a burden on both vessels to act as needed in order to avoid a collision regardless of where each stands in the hierarchy of vessel privilege. And I very much doubt that the concept of a "rudder signal" is ingrained in the habits of most recreational boaters.

    For myself, I never want to get into a situation where I have to act to avoid an impending collision. I'll alter course to avoid freighters by miles where possible, and will turn to completely avoid a crossing situation if I do not see a clear rudder signal from the burdened vessel well before we meet. I get no thrill from playing chicken on the water and the thirty seconds that maneuver adds to a five hour cruise makes no difference at all.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    All the more reason to pee over the side.

    And on that ferry run, you can see the ferry from dock to dock. So look around before you pop below with the auto pilot running the boat.

    I am surprised that there has not been a collision between a yacht and cruise ship in Puget Sound. During the season, there is a parade of cruise ships heading out from Seattle. The ships dwarf the ferries and move much faster than you would think. All it will take is a yacht cutting across the path of one or somebody running on auto pilot.

    There are now warning signs on the ferries:

    IMG_20170309_142614843.jpg

    Speaking of the VTS system, and of keeping a lookout while the skipper is in the head... When my wife and I were on our honeymoon in 2006 we took Temptation, our 30' Chris Craft Constellation, up Puget Sound heading for Port Townsend as a jumping off point for the SJIs. At one point just north of Pt. No Point I turned to helm over to her for a few minutes to use the head. She is a capable helms-person but inexperienced in handling meeting situations. However there was no traffic nearby so I was not concerned.

    A few minutes go by and I hear her calling my name. And then again, louder and with a tinge of anxiety. So I quickly finished up and went on deck to see a big Nimitz-class carrier and various outlying vessels heading down the Sound from the north. She told me that she was concerned about how close they were, although they were still several miles away. "Just wait" I said "they are going to turn directly toward us right... about... now." As the entire group of vessels started their turn at Marrowstone Pt. and seemingly headed right for us. At that point she quickly insisted that I take over and relinquished the helm with relief. We were well out of the VTS lanes and never in any danger of getting anywhere near the group but one would have to understand how the VTS system works and where the lanes are to know how to avoid the situation.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I'd nip it off if I heard a ships horn blasting like that.
    play it safe, always go astern
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    here's a crazy one:

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Constant bearing, decreasing range. DO SOMETHING!
    Too many rules. Just needed one, Common freakin’ sense!
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    here's a crazy one:

    This looks like a suicide attempt.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    I think I was 12 when the video of the ferry hitting that schooner first played on Boston TV. But it does have something in common with the Elbe 5, they both turned the wrong way.

    I believe the (more experienced than me) people saying the freighter captain should have been in reverse are correct. However the ELBE 5 made huge mistakes. Like many on the forum I had a hand at steering large schooners at one point in my life. I still run IODs in and out of the obstacle course that is Marblehead harbor every Saturday of the summer, under sail. Not in a million years would I have turned to starboard in that situation. It raises questions about crew training.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I think I was 12 when the video of the ferry hitting that schooner first played on Boston TV. But it does have something in common with the Elbe 5, they both turned the wrong way.

    I believe the (more experienced than me) people saying the freighter captain should have been in reverse are correct. However the ELBE 5 made huge mistakes. Like many on the forum I had a hand at steering large schooners at one point in my life. I still run IODs in and out of the obstacle course that is Marblehead harbor every Saturday of the summer, under sail. Not in a million years would I have turned to starboard in that situation. It raises questions about crew training.
    After looking at the video a few times I'm less certain about what the freighter should have been doing. The position of the vessels in the minute or two before impact isn't clear but it could have seemed to the skipper on the freighter that the Elbe 5 would bear off to avoid the collision (the seemingly obvious course of action), or that they would pass safely, if a little close. It might have been the last-second turn to starboard by the Elbe that brought them onto collision course, with no time for the freighter to react in any way.

  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Link to video on board the schooner minutes before the collision.

    You be the judge. https://youtu.be/aXrTvVh4NOs
    That's unbelievable. Is it just someone playing power gives way to sail?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    That's Reveler and the ferry Nantucket.

    I was taking care of the farm while Mom and Dad took Goblin so I was horrified by Sunday morning calls, "Are your parents alive?" "Huh" "A black schooner was run down in Hyannis. That's where your boat is with Mac and BLou" I started a mad phone chase that ended in the relief that it was not Mom and Dad.

    Short version - the very green new owner had hit the shoal opposite Kalmas breakwater. He did not understand that the Nantucket's displacement wave would lift him off and he was frantically powering hard in reverse. Against all odds, Reveler slid off and with her off-set prop was about uncontrollable for an unskilled skipper. He tried to get control going ahead but also had no clue as to what the ferry could or could not do.

    Some friends of my folks were aboard and saw how the skipper sent one of his crew to fend off. They and other passengers were awestruck as the young man scampered up the inclined fore mast and leaped aboard the ferry. My folks' friends claimed they heard another passenger declare, "I bet the (Steamship) Authority charges him a fare."

    For some years the clip was used every spring to remind boaters not to drink and sail. The bitter irony behind that is that particular skipper never drank in his whole life.

    She was rebuilt, moved to Florida, sank in two hurricanes, broke a mast or two, sank up here a few times, and recently got a new keel. When rigged with good sails and well handled, she is about the fastest schooner for her inches I have ever seen.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    This is a much better video of the ELBE 5. Grab a quick coffee and enjoy !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjadS07KnTU&feature=share

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    What a fantastic childhood.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I believe the (more experienced than me) people saying the freighter captain should have been in reverse are correct.
    That's tricky. MV Astrosprinter is about the smallest regular size container feeder with 800 TEU. But at 142 m by 20.6m by 7.3m and a displacement of about 15,000t, she is also 50 times as much boat as Elbe 5 is at maybe 300t.

    50 times. Or human vs Pickup.

    Installed power is an 8 cylinder 8000kW medium speed diesel, turning a 4.6m prop. She does have a controllable pitch propeller, so no need to stop the engine and start it in reverse, but it still takes about a minute to turn the prop to full reverse. However, fully loaded down as they were at maybe 10kn, if you then give full power astern, you break something. Either the prop, the shaft, or a bearing along the way.

    All this to say: At that level, stopping distance is not measured in ships lengths. It's measured in miles. And the emergency stoping maneuver in free water actually involves cutting power, turning the helm hard over and some time later, go to reverse power in several steps. Which you obviously can't do in a channel, on a river, with traffic ahead and behind you. Which is why we have VTS, radar, AIS, pilotage, and most importantly: colregs.

    And depending on the traffic behind them, or upcoming, they might have had no room to turn decidedly to port or even slow down significantly, without then risking a collision with a vessel 10 times their size.

    Source for stats on MV Astrosprinter: http://www.vtechmarine.com/005.pdf

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    I find myself wondering why Elbe didnt have her engine/s running given that there were other vessels around and there were draft constraints in that locality.
    With an eye for an eye eventually the whole world is blind.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    That's tricky. MV Astrosprinter is about the smallest regular size container feeder with 800 TEU. But at 142 m by 20.6m by 7.3m and a displacement of about 15,000t, she is also 50 times as much boat as Elbe 5 is at maybe 300t.

    50 times. Or human vs Pickup.

    Installed power is an 8 cylinder 8000kW medium speed diesel, turning a 4.6m prop. She does have a controllable pitch propeller, so no need to stop the engine and start it in reverse, but it still takes about a minute to turn the prop to full reverse. However, fully loaded down as they were at maybe 10kn, if you then give full power astern, you break something. Either the prop, the shaft, or a bearing along the way.

    All this to say: At that level, stopping distance is not measured in ships lengths. It's measured in miles. And the emergency stoping maneuver in free water actually involves cutting power, turning the helm hard over and some time later, go to reverse power in several steps. Which you obviously can't do in a channel, on a river, with traffic ahead and behind you. Which is why we have VTS, radar, AIS, pilotage, and most importantly: colregs.

    And depending on the traffic behind them, or upcoming, they might have had no room to turn decidedly to port or even slow down significantly, without then risking a collision with a vessel 10 times their size.

    Source for stats on MV Astrosprinter: http://www.vtechmarine.com/005.pdf
    Thank you.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    That's tricky. MV Astrosprinter is about the smallest regular size container feeder with 800 TEU. But at 142 m by 20.6m by 7.3m and a displacement of about 15,000t, she is also 50 times as much boat as Elbe 5 is at maybe 300t.

    50 times. Or human vs Pickup.

    Installed power is an 8 cylinder 8000kW medium speed diesel, turning a 4.6m prop. She does have a controllable pitch propeller, so no need to stop the engine and start it in reverse, but it still takes about a minute to turn the prop to full reverse. However, fully loaded down as they were at maybe 10kn, if you then give full power astern, you break something. Either the prop, the shaft, or a bearing along the way.

    All this to say: At that level, stopping distance is not measured in ships lengths. It's measured in miles. And the emergency stoping maneuver in free water actually involves cutting power, turning the helm hard over and some time later, go to reverse power in several steps. Which you obviously can't do in a channel, on a river, with traffic ahead and behind you. Which is why we have VTS, radar, AIS, pilotage, and most importantly: colregs.

    And depending on the traffic behind them, or upcoming, they might have had no room to turn decidedly to port or even slow down significantly, without then risking a collision with a vessel 10 times their size.

    Source for stats on MV Astrosprinter: http://www.vtechmarine.com/005.pdf
    Yes, it's the turn to weather by the schooner that seems inexplicable to me. No container ship, especially one carrying cargo, is going to be able to stop or even slow substantially in the distances involved in the collision.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    The only way it makes sense is that the skipper ordered “ hard a-port” and the crew, mistaking the order, put the tiller to port. As Martin Schulz says, it’s quite an easy mistake to make with these big tiller steered boats.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Several people (German natives) are hearing the order that way, I can imagine I hear it. But why don't we hear the skipper shouting his ass off: "The other way you dumbasses!" when he realizes what started to happen?

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk


  22. #57
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    That's tricky. MV Astrosprinter is about the smallest regular size container feeder with 800 TEU. But at 142 m by 20.6m by 7.3m and a displacement of about 15,000t, she is also 50 times as much boat as Elbe 5 is at maybe 300t.

    50 times. Or human vs Pickup.

    Installed power is an 8 cylinder 8000kW medium speed diesel, turning a 4.6m prop. She does have a controllable pitch propeller, so no need to stop the engine and start it in reverse, but it still takes about a minute to turn the prop to full reverse. However, fully loaded down as they were at maybe 10kn, if you then give full power astern, you break something. Either the prop, the shaft, or a bearing along the way.

    All this to say: At that level, stopping distance is not measured in ships lengths. It's measured in miles. And the emergency stoping maneuver in free water actually involves cutting power, turning the helm hard over and some time later, go to reverse power in several steps. Which you obviously can't do in a channel, on a river, with traffic ahead and behind you. Which is why we have VTS, radar, AIS, pilotage, and most importantly: colregs.

    And depending on the traffic behind them, or upcoming, they might have had no room to turn decidedly to port or even slow down significantly, without then risking a collision with a vessel 10 times their size.

    Source for stats on MV Astrosprinter: http://www.vtechmarine.com/005.pdf
    Thanks Moritz. That puts the freighter's actions into perspective, and shows that my ferry comparison is not relevant. It also reinforces my conviction to stay far away from any freighters.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Makes me hope she is not impossibly broken.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Thanks Moritz. That puts the freighter's actions into perspective, and shows that my ferry comparison is not relevant. It also reinforces my conviction to stay far away from any freighters.
    That depends on the size of the ferry, but yah. Stay away from the big guys is a good lesson to take away from this. Scandalize the gaff, let fly all the sheets, turn like a hare, set her into the muck, anything. But don't cut across a freighter.
    The pictures of her salvage do make me cautiously optimistic as well. No idea how many frames and plank runs are bust, but at least she doesn't look like kindling. I do happen to know somebody intimatley involved with her via the tallship I crew on. But I didn't feel like adding on to the noise. Might see them in a week or two, I'll let you know.
    Last edited by MoritzSchwarzer; 06-17-2019 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    It seems that the helm had an 'Otto' pilot attached to it. How could any competent skipper not be in control in a crowded seaway, and how shortsighted his company for turning this wonderful schooner into an overcrowded diner cruise.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Dinner cruise with paying passengers makes her a working vessel.
    respect for that

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    I suppose that the company has good intentions, just maybe it's 'skipper' has the ultimate "shortsightedness".

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan navy View Post
    It seems that the helm had an 'Otto' pilot attached to it. How could any competent skipper not be in control in a crowded seaway, and how shortsighted his company for turning this wonderful schooner into an overcrowded diner cruise.
    She's steered with a tiller rope, the helmsman was just out of view to starboard. Not unheard of in big, traditional, tiller steered boats.

    The owner is a foundation, Hamburg Maritim. They are the biggest, best situated and arguably most professional trad ship owner in Germany. They manage 13 ships from a 110 year old harbour launch to a 3500t breakbulk freighter, almost all of them are acessible to the public and working for their keep in one form or another. Oh, and they are currently helming the restoration of the Peking, which was on the brink of rotting out from under the previous custodian. So kindly: shut you gob.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by The owner is a foundation, [URL="http://stiftung-hamburg-maritim.de/"
    Hamburg Maritim[/URL]. They are the biggest, best situated and arguably most professional trad ship owner in Germany. They manage 13 ships from a 110 year old harbour launch to a 3500t breakbulk freighter, almost all of them are acessible to the public and working for their keep in one form or another. Oh, and they are currently helming the restoration of the Peking, which was on the brink of rotting out from under the previous custodian. So kindly: shut you gob.
    Huh. I saw none of this in evidence in this video. And you know what they say about moving pictures.
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    The vid I saw from Elbe 5 shows the closing, the warning signals from the container ship, and the tackle on the starboard side being cast off so that several of the crew could shove the tiller to port. It appeared an attempt to get across the bow of the ship for a port to port meeting. I could not hear enough to tell if the captain's command was "turn port" or "port helm". It was clear they were way too close to the wind to just bear up and get across the bow. Other vids make it look as if they attempted to tack, perhaps too slowly and perhaps caught in stays.

    In short, it's a major Charlie Foxtrot.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk



    She's up. Still pumping but not so very much.

    If a vessel is going to sink and to need getting back up from under water, Hamburg is a pretty good spot to sink in.
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    So now what? Insurance companies fight it out until she's rotten through and through? The job gets done and they fight it out later? She's not salvageable? I doubt that though. Does anyone here have any inside info on her?
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Like I said, the foundation that owns her is professional and has stamina. According to NDR, she's patched up and cleared to be towed to a shipyard in Schleswig Holstein for repairs soon.

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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    I'm glad to hear that. By stamina I suppose you mean well heeled which I suspect will e important in the months, possibly years, to come.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: Schooner ELBE 5 ex-WANDER BIRD Sunk

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    Like I said, the foundation that owns her is professional and has stamina. According to NDR, she's patched up and cleared to be towed to a shipyard in Schleswig Holstein for repairs soon.
    Thanks for the update espescially the video. I never doubted that she would be recovered and refitted. Hamburg people are serious about the city’s maritime heritage.
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