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Thread: Why mizzen sails?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Indeed he did.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    I get a little tired when people become too precise in separating different rig types. There are enough examples of boats with accepted descriptions that break the rules, that either we have to knock them into compliance with the rule, or we shrug and carry on. I am for the latter.
    Friendship Sloops maybe should be called a cutter....?
    Rozinante is called by the designer a canoe yawl.....?
    Herreshoffs 21 foot Cat Yawl should be a ketch....
    I agree with Ian that any of the definitions he suggested work for me......

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    LFH did indeed mostly call the Roz a 'canoe yawl'. The rational, per my fallible memory, came from yawl boats. Perhaps the peregrinations of mind are drifting off with that periauger on the bay.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Iím mizzen the sail to my duck punt. I need a new one.

    Izzat whatcu mean?

    Peace,
    Notical Expert

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    C'mon Rob - you need to ketch up!

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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    C'mon Rob - you need to ketch up!

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    Mustard wrong. I donít relish going deaf.

    Peace,
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    There are several mast placement/sail area rules:

    A yawl has the mizzen abaft the rudder post, and/or
    abaft the aft most point of the waterline, and/or
    the mizzen sail area is less than one fifth the main.

    But a yawl boat was originally a ship's utility mostly passenger boat rowed or sailed between vessels or moving officers to or from shore. Even though she has a keel, a cabin, and a biggish mizzen stepped well in the boat, the Rosinante has enough of that feel for LFH to call her a "yawl boat".
    I reckon my mizzen is directly on top of the rudder posts. (Twin rudders). It's forward of the aft most waterline. But aft of the helm, which is a wheel in the centre cockpit. I'd guess it's more than 1/5th the area of the main. Ketch? Yawl? Or I as in LGBTQI+?

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  8. #78
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I reckon my mizzen is directly on top of the rudder posts. (Twin rudders). It's forward of the aft most waterline. But aft of the helm, which is a wheel in the centre cockpit. I'd guess it's more than 1/5th the area of the main. Ketch? Yawl? Or I as in LGBTQI+?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Undobtedly a "Yetch"

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Rodder post, not wheel. She's a ketch.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Rodder post, not wheel. She's a ketch.
    I think she's more ketch than yawl, it helps that the rudder posts are way forward. If the rudders were as far aft as they are on most boats there'd be no question. So ketch with the rudders in the wrong place maybe!

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  11. #81
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    If its abaft the tiller then its probably a yawl - no?
    A mizzen would usually be forward of the helm.........

    (Bracing for impact)
    I think the OP's topic is mizzens, yes? Whether it's a ketch or a yawl; I'm not sure which is more common. But with small open boats, even a yawl mizzen is going to be forward of the rudder, right in the middle of where the tiller needs to swing.

    A yawl mizzen in a small boat tends to interfere with the tiller.

    A ketch mizzen in a small boat tends to interfere with cockpit space and seating.

    So, despite the advantages mizzens offer in small boats, there are advantages that are offered by going mizzen-free as well. With a small boat, you don't need a split rig to make sails easier to handle because the sails are already small. So I think an intelligent argument can be made for going without a mizzen. Works for me, anyway.

    Tom
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    In 25+ knot tradewinds double reefed main gives me 3 similar sized sails, mizzen included. Full control of power with stability. Perfect setup for me.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    So, despite the advantages mizzens offer in small boats, there are advantages that are offered by going mizzen-free as well. With a small boat, you don't need a split rig to make sails easier to handle because the sails are already small. So I think an intelligent argument can be made for going without a mizzen. Works for me, anyway.

    Tom
    An "intelligent" argument can also be made to go with no mast at all. It's called a power boat.

    That's also an argument that I won't be making!
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Historicaly, and according to L. Francis Herreshoff, a yawl, has its mizzen mast stepped abaft of the water line aft. Ketch you schooner or later sloopy.
    Bird
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 06-15-2019 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    My little boat is quite versatile. Built as centerboarder she's a yawl.


    Or put in the bilgeboards for a ketch!


    Actual steering position? Same either way
    Steve

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  16. #86
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    The OP returneth! While I haven't been posting, I have been following the discussion. As Ken in post #51 and Tom in post #81 have suggested, I was thinking of smaller boats like 10'-20' or so. But I left the question open ended hoping to learn more than I know to ask about and I appreciate all the discussion.
    I am building an Oughtred Penny Fee 16' LOA with a 5'2" beam (this is like a big sister to the very popular Tammie Norrie). Mr Oughtred gives several sail plans, among them a lug rig with and without a mizzen. The mizzen on the Penny Fee (and I believe on the TN) is offset, so I assumed (and I think others have suggested) that it is not intended to provide power (but perhaps I'm mistaken about this.)
    I have made the choice to rig her with a "mizzenless" balanced lug. Many factors contribute to this choice, including advancing age, declining agility, half a century since I last sailed, a boat my wife will be comfortable in without having to scramble around too much... things like that.
    A mizzen could be added later as the mains'l and spars are the same with or without the mizzen; but the main mast would have to be stepped farther forward if a mizzen is added- not terribly difficult.
    Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion! Please keep it up if y'all so desire!
    regards to all
    pvg

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvg View Post
    I have made the choice to rig her with a "mizzenless" balanced lug. Many factors contribute to this choice, including advancing age, declining agility, half a century since I last sailed, a boat my wife will be comfortable in without having to scramble around too much... things like that.
    The reasons you listed for not having a mizzen are the exact reasons why you actually need a mizzen.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Agreed with Yeadon. The mizzen is your friend as your agility decreases. It's right there near where you sit. It adds options, not work.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    For me, and countless fishermen, the mizzen is the key to a user friendly lug rig in a small open boat. In contrast to rigs where sails are laced to the mast, lug rigs tend to head off down wind when the sail is half way hoisted or doused. Never good. That little mizzen keeps her pointed into the wind as you hoist and douse.
    Ben Fuller
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  20. #90
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Agreed with Yeadon. The mizzen is your friend as your agility decreases. It's right there near where you sit. It adds options, not work.
    ha ! only if you aren't busy making twice as many spars / deadeyes / rigging !

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Club racing usually involves more than one or two people on board. A split rig is actually easier to manage when short handed.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Dunno- the J/36 or my 28'er are very easy to sail singlehanded unless one is using a spinnaker in a breeze and/or not permitted to use the autopilot. Even the cruising assy spinnaker is easy to use.

    With a modern short overlap fractional rig, you need only use two working sails from zero to 25 knots or so. They just depower by easing the jib inhauler, halyard and lead adjustment, and using backstay, cunningham, vang and traveller. Having an extra stick on the back wouldn't seem to be an assistance, but you do need to be using to steering to a very fine groove.

    I'm not knocking split rigs; they look lovely and suit many people.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    For me, and countless fishermen, the mizzen is the key to a user friendly lug rig in a small open boat. In contrast to rigs where sails are laced to the mast, lug rigs tend to head off down wind when the sail is half way hoisted or doused. Never good. That little mizzen keeps her pointed into the wind as you hoist and douse.
    Ben and the rest of you mizzen users, I have a question about this that I've always wondered about.

    When I hoist a lug rig, I haven't found any need to have the boat head to windward. In practice, all I need is to be on the correct tack. For me, that's the starboard tack, because I rig my yard and sail to port of the mast. If I hoist quickly (really the only way), I have not had any problems with the boat falling off. That seems to obviate the need for a mizzen to some degree--I just row the boat into the wind, fall off a tiny bit on the starboard tack, and hoist quickly before the boat can really fall off. Especially since the sail is not sheeted in, it won't be powered up. It'll just weathervane to leeward until I'm ready to sail and trim the sheet.

    I can understand that all is probably simpler and calmer with a mizzen to hold the boat head to wind. And as you say, increasing age and decreasing agility make that option even more attractive. But I can't say I've encountered major problems sans mizzen. And going mizzenless does bring its own advantages.

    What do you all think? Have you hoisted a mizzenless lug the way I describe, without needing to be head to wind?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ben and the rest of you mizzen users, I have a question about this that I've always wondered about.

    When I hoist a lug rig, I haven't found any need to have the boat head to windward. In practice, all I need is to be on the correct tack. For me, that's the starboard tack, because I rig my yard and sail to port of the mast. If I hoist quickly (really the only way), I have not had any problems with the boat falling off. That seems to obviate the need for a mizzen to some degree--I just row the boat into the wind, fall off a tiny bit on the starboard tack, and hoist quickly before the boat can really fall off. Especially since the sail is not sheeted in, it won't be powered up. It'll just weathervane to leeward until I'm ready to sail and trim the sheet.

    I can understand that all is probably simpler and calmer with a mizzen to hold the boat head to wind. And as you say, increasing age and decreasing agility make that option even more attractive. But I can't say I've encountered major problems sans mizzen. And going mizzenless does bring its own advantages.

    What do you all think? Have you hoisted a mizzenless lug the way I describe, without needing to be head to wind?

    Tom
    I think it depends on the size of the lug, seaway running etc. Its also handy to keep the boat under control when reefing when even with the sail down the boat can head downwind with the windage on the sail. I'd not be quick enough with 100 sq ft on Ran Tan is fully battened I need all the help I can get where as the 200 ft on the Romily would be a real challenge without it; it has a 3x1 purchase block as the spar and sail are about 60 and would be heavier if the yard wasn't carbon.

    This whole thread is really talking about two different kinds of boats. Light row sail boats and heavy cruising boats.
    Ben Fuller
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  24. #94
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    I found success was in the "quickly" part, and how much wind was involved. You really don't want to have any hang ups after putting in your third reef.
    Steve

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  25. #95
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvg View Post
    I have made the choice to rig her with a "mizzenless" balanced lug. Many factors contribute to this choice, including advancing age, declining agility, half a century since I last sailed, a boat my wife will be comfortable in without having to scramble around too much... things like that.
    Except for the "half century" part, I was concerned with all of these factors for my boat, and hence decided the exact opposite of you OTOH, your boat is quite a bit smaller than what I am building, so the answer could certainly be different.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    https://share.icloud.com/photos/0JsB...amp;_Charlotte

    An Ilur and a Ness yawl on a blustery fall day on Lake Champlain. We were able to heave to and tie in reefs in open water without any drama, thanks to mizzens.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ben and the rest of you mizzen users, I have a question about this that I've always wondered about.

    When I hoist a lug rig, I haven't found any need to have the boat head to windward. In practice, all I need is to be on the correct tack. For me, that's the starboard tack, because I rig my yard and sail to port of the mast. If I hoist quickly (really the only way), I have not had any problems with the boat falling off. That seems to obviate the need for a mizzen to some degree--I just row the boat into the wind, fall off a tiny bit on the starboard tack, and hoist quickly before the boat can really fall off. Especially since the sail is not sheeted in, it won't be powered up. It'll just weathervane to leeward until I'm ready to sail and trim the sheet.

    I can understand that all is probably simpler and calmer with a mizzen to hold the boat head to wind. And as you say, increasing age and decreasing agility make that option even more attractive. But I can't say I've encountered major problems sans mizzen. And going mizzenless does bring its own advantages.

    What do you all think? Have you hoisted a mizzenless lug the way I describe, without needing to be head to wind?

    Tom
    Just a guess, but my sense is that you're a really competent sailor with a high threshold for chaos. The rest of us need our mizzens.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    So I think an intelligent argument can be made for going without a mizzen.

    Tom
    With respect to the Alaska, though, you seem to be making the case for underpowered sailing rather than "mizzenless" sailing. You've reduced her sailplan by some 60 percent by foregoing the mizzen (85 main 49 mizzen).
    You really need at least 15 knots apparent to get to windward reliably in lumpy seas or against some current with only the main forward in my experience - and there is a lot of sailing to be done between 5 and 15 knots - probably close to 80 or 90 percent of the time out here anyway.

    Remember also that the mizzen's luff is longer than the reefed main so you may make better progress to windward with the mizzen stepped in the middle position as opposed to the reefed main.
    I've made progress to windward in close to 30 knots with the mizzen stepped in the middle like this. I've been told it's an old fisherman's trick.

    Sometimes I'll brail the mizzen and carry on under main alone in gusty weather or even in nice weather going downwind (what's the hurry anyway). Then if I need to reef just drop the mizzen, tuck in a reef and carry on.
    I think old men may appreciate it more than endurance athletes...

    (oh, and did I mention ghosting ability?)
    Last edited by darroch; 06-17-2019 at 07:30 PM.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Great thread, but no one seems to have answered the original question: Why mizzen sails? The answer is really simple - because the mizzen mast looks silly without a sail on it.

    Just my usual trying to help folks out.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Actually, racing ketches have spent a fair bit of time with naked mizzen masts, and some of us think it looks quite cool! :-)

    I recall there was a Swan World Cup years ago where one of the top boats raced the entire series with the mizzen mast up, but was rated without the sail because they felt the rating penalty was not worth it. I assume that they left the mast up because they got a rating reduction for the windage and weight of the spar.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Actually, racing ketches have spent a fair bit of time with naked mizzen masts, and some of us think it looks quite cool! :-)

    I recall there was a Swan World Cup years ago where one of the top boats raced the entire series with the mizzen mast up, but was rated without the sail because they felt the rating penalty was not worth it. I assume that they left the mast up because they got a rating reduction for the windage and weight of the spar.
    On a windward-leeward course, they'd be right. A mizzen mostly helps with boatspeed on a reach.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    And there is this, in the mid-century ocean racing where the boats were essentially big sloops fitted with a mizzen to take advantage of an unrated mizzen staysail or spinnaker.

    More here;
    http://perryboat.sail2live.com/yacht...plit-rigs.html

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Just a guess, but my sense is that you're a really competent sailor with a high threshold for chaos. The rest of us need our mizzens.
    I'll plead guilty to the high threshold for chaos (my day job is public school teacher). I think I sail alone too much to be confident about my competence, though I rarely tip over these days.

    I think the bigger factor might be that my mainsail is only 85 sq ft (and the Phoenix III, the other boat I've sailed extensively, is at 76 sq ft). I think you guys are at about 100, yes? That would be a much harder package to handle. I don't think I'd want to go much bigger than 85, actually. 85 feels like a big sail when it's windy.

    Tom
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  34. #104
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    With respect to the Alaska, though, you seem to be making the case for underpowered sailing rather than "mizzenless" sailing. You've reduced her sailplan by some 60 percent by foregoing the mizzen (85 main 49 mizzen).
    You really need at least 15 knots apparent to get to windward reliably in lumpy seas or against some current with only the main forward in my experience - and there is a lot of sailing to be done between 5 and 15 knots - probably close to 80 or 90 percent of the time out here anyway.

    Remember also that the mizzen's luff is longer than the reefed main so you may make better progress to windward with the mizzen stepped in the middle position as opposed to the reefed main.
    I've made progress to windward in close to 30 knots with the mizzen stepped in the middle like this. I've been told it's an old fisherman's trick.

    Sometimes I'll brail the mizzen and carry on under main alone in gusty weather or even in nice weather going downwind (what's the hurry anyway). Then if I need to reef just drop the mizzen, tuck in a reef and carry on.
    I think old men may appreciate it more than endurance athletes...

    (oh, and did I mention ghosting ability?)
    Rod,

    thanks for chiming in. I'm sure everything you say is correct. I have learned, though, that I don't have much patience for ghosting. In ghosting conditions I can be rowing at 2.5-3 knots. I much prefer that. You know how they say really good sailors stand out when the wind gets really light? That's why I row!

    Where I sail, it's mostly "Row in the morning, reef (or double-reef) in the afternoon" so I've never felt the need for more sail area once I had given up on ghosting anyway. I don't often run into conditions under 10-15 knots unless there's no wind at all. A good reminder that the right choice is regional to a great degree.

    Progress to windward in 30 knots? No thank you! These days I mostly go to windward sans mizzen (and main) at 60 miles per hour, and no tacking--I choose my destinations depending on what island I can reach on a close reach to a broad reach.

    If I HAD to be out in 30 knots (may the gods forbid), I'll be running off. Or more likely, rowing off. I'm too chicken to keep a sail up when it gets real windy.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Why mizzen sails?

    One last observation on my single-stick Alaska variant: I have to say, I chose Alaska partly because I really liked the look of the two-masted lugger. But in practice, it's really nice to not have a mast and sail taking up so much good lounging space.

    I like to sit on the aft thwart and steer with a tiller extension. And there are definitely more seating options (with weight farther forward for better trim) without the mizzen in the way.

    That may be sacrilege from an Alaska builder...

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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