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Thread: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

  1. #1
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    Default Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    OK, I can't bear it any longer. Is there a thread on this topic I've missed? It seems like these two are on a lot of people's short list but I can't seem to turn up a direct comparison.

    What do people see as the pros and cons of Ilur vs. Navigator? Let's hear thoughts ranging from the practical to the aesthetic.

    The first response in these sort of threads is usually the one where people ask about intended use, crew, location etc, but rather than fit a boat to my use, I'd like to know what intrinsic values these boats possess relative to each other. Academically, you might say, leaving me out of it entirely.

    Also, I believe their differences in displacement are somewhat due to the way Ilur's must be quantified due to EU regs, and that they might be a bit closer fully rigged?

    Anyone?
    Last edited by Blackbear; 05-29-2019 at 11:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I like the Navigator best. Prettier, l like the slight tumblehome in stern.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Ilur is a popular sail & oars dinghy while Navigator is a cruising dinghy with a planing hull. Both have several interesting rig options. If you want a simple boomless Misainier sail, Ilur is the way to go.

    Comparing seaworthiness is tricky, as Ilur is heavier and has a displacement hull while Navigator has decks and is beamier. In case of yawl rig Navigator's center of effort is kept low and the rig is quick to reef when conditions change unexpectedly.

    I think the nature of the both boats is well-captured in the following videos.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNFKe64Fyps (Ilur)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_K1jNAGrU (Navigator)
    Last edited by Timo8188; 05-30-2019 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I can only offer my experience - I can't say that this is true for everyone.

    Building -I built a Navigator because it looked like a simpler build. Nav has fewer strakes and is built on permanent stringers. It looked very similar to the SOF kayaks that I had made. I'm very happy with the way it came together, even though I was pretty inexperienced when I started.

    Sailing - I have only one comparison. Last summer at the Small Reach Regatta there were two Ilurs and they were very fast. However, I was brand new to my boat and the Ilur skippers have years of experience in theirs. Also I have a balanced lug rig that is smaller than on the Ilur (100 sf main + 20sf mizzen vs. 131 sf on the Ilur). Naigators with other sail plans probably carry more sail.

    Looks - Well, that's Ginger vs. Maryanne.

    The good news is that you can't go wrong with your choice. I like the open look of the Ilur, but the built-in storage/flotation in the Navigator is reassuring. The Navigator is super stable and has been proven to be seaworthy. Last weekend we had four adults on board and hit 5 kts in a moderate wind. She handles really well but doesn't like to be rowed. If I were a more seasoned builder I would have been more tempted by the Ilur because she and I are both of French descent. But I'm very happy with my choice.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Thanks for the replies.

    Rigadog, +1 on the tumblehome.

    Timo8188, isn't Roger Barnes great? He is, perhaps, the most English Englishmen since Postman Pat. I've really enjoyed his videos.

    Kenny, I never could choose between Ginger and Maryanne either. Rather, I could, but then Waxwing came along. What a sexy boat. Now I can't. Otto Karvonen's Ilur is looking almost as good, still in the nude! Still, there's something about Navigator (as it's been said).

    Virtually the entirety of my sailing career has been long stints working on tall ships, and besides some sailing camps as a child and messing about in the ships' boats from time to time, I've really no small boating experience to speak of (pulling boats excepted). So, I'm sort of throwing myself on the mercy of the forum here. I appreciate Timo's comments about planing vs. displacement hulls and I recognize that I don't really understand the practical differences in boats so small. So, in terms of practicality, I wondered if folks might indulge me in the following questionnaire:

    Answers to all are either "Navigator" or "Ilur" please (I would personally have a hard time resisting the urge to get creative...).

    1. You've had a lovely few days cruising amongst the islands, but today is the day when you must make that 20-mile passage to the next harbor, facing the full might of the northern Pacific. You're not worried, however, because you're sailing ______.

    2. As you stumble down to the harbor at dawn, exceptionally hungover even for you, you curse yourself yet again for drinking so much and your drunken wager on a race out around Seal Island and back. You're more worried about your pounding head than winning the race, however, because you're sailing ______.

    3. Your boss has followed your building progress closely and you've promised her a sail when the boat is finally complete. You're somewhat dismayed, however, that on the day agreed upon she chose to bring along her very precocious two-year-old twins, who simply will not sit still. Luckily, you built ______.

    4. Daysailing is great, and what a day it's been. You're happiest sailing alone. As you come about and head for home, a darkening line in the sky to windward immediately commands your attention. Where did that come from? You grit your teeth as the wind and the rain arrive together, glad you're in _____.

    5. Summer vacation at last. You check the rear view mirror before pulling away from the house. The kids are buckled in, the dog is quivering in anticipation and a small mountain of baggage is piled in the back of the wagon. You smile at your wife, because you can see ______ on her trailer, and you know you can make it all fit in somehow.

    6. SNAP goes the mast. As you examine the wreckage, you can find no flaw. A freak accident? It will be a long row home, but at least you're in ______.

    7. You awake on the boat as it swings gently on the hook. It's been a good trip. The day is bright and clear, but the wind is freshening and expected to get brisker. You gently pat _______ beneath you, because she likes a bit of wind.

    Anyone?

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Interesting way of looking at it. My own thoughts are Navigator except for No6. Personally i like a bit of decking over an open boat, especially when things get boisterous.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post

    Answers to all are either "Navigator" or "Ilur" please (I would personally have a hard time resisting the urge to get creative...).

    1. You've had a lovely few days cruising amongst the islands, but today is the day when you must make that 20-mile passage to the next harbor, facing the full might of the northern Pacific. You're not worried, however, because you're sailing ______.

    2. As you stumble down to the harbor at dawn, exceptionally hungover even for you, you curse yourself yet again for drinking so much and your drunken wager on a race out around Seal Island and back. You're more worried about your pounding head than winning the race, however, because you're sailing ______.

    3. Your boss has followed your building progress closely and you've promised her a sail when the boat is finally complete. You're somewhat dismayed, however, that on the day agreed upon she chose to bring along her very precocious two-year-old twins, who simply will not sit still. Luckily, you built ______.

    4. Daysailing is great, and what a day it's been. You're happiest sailing alone. As you come about and head for home, a darkening line in the sky to windward immediately commands your attention. Where did that come from? You grit your teeth as the wind and the rain arrive together, glad you're in _____.

    5. Summer vacation at last. You check the rear view mirror before pulling away from the house. The kids are buckled in, the dog is quivering in anticipation and a small mountain of baggage is piled in the back of the wagon. You smile at your wife, because you can see ______ on her trailer, and you know you can make it all fit in somehow.

    6. SNAP goes the mast. As you examine the wreckage, you can find no flaw. A freak accident? It will be a long row home, but at least you're in ______.

    7. You awake on the boat as it swings gently on the hook. It's been a good trip. The day is bright and clear, but the wind is freshening and expected to get brisker. You gently pat _______ beneath you, because she likes a bit of wind.

    Anyone?

    Cole

    I'm gonna agree with Skaraborg. Other than the rowing bit, that Navigator is a great choice. Plus, as a tall ship sailor, if you still want to pull strings you can set up the Navigator with a very graceful gaff yawl rig. Lots of fun. And the two year olds will be just fine in the Navigator.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Here's probably the biggest question you need to answer for yourself: Do I want to use an outboard, or do I want to do without?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
    Timo8188, isn't Roger Barnes great? He is, perhaps, the most English Englishmen since Postman Pat. I've really enjoyed his videos.
    Yes, Roger Barnes has a great attitude about sailing. Also, he commented on Ilur that it has plenty of space for two to sleep. Navigator probably needs a removable sleeping platform between the seats.

    I agree with Ben that the key question is whether you accept an outboard or not. Perhaps some want speed too.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Not really made up my mind on the outboard, but wouldn't like to rule it out. I definitely wouldn't build a motorwell regardless. Surely Ilur could support a transom mounted 2.5hp long shaft as well?

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
    Not really made up my mind on the outboard, but wouldn't like to rule it out. I definitely wouldn't build a motorwell regardless. Surely Ilur could support a transom mounted 2.5hp long shaft as well?
    No reason why not, many of Francois other dinghies do.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Ben/Timo can you explain further? Were you suggesting Ilur would not take an outboard, and if I wanted that capability, to choose Navigator?

    Timo, what do you mean by "Perhaps some want speed too?" Sorry if I'm being thick.

    There seems to be a consensus in favor of Navigator. Why might one choose Ilur otherwise? What are her strengths?

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
    Ben/Timo can you explain further? Were you suggesting Ilur would not take an outboard, and if I wanted that capability, to choose Navigator?

    ....

    There seems to be a consensus in favor of Navigator.

    Cole


    The Navigator really should have an OB. It just isn't practical to row it any distance. The Ilur however, can be rowed considerable distance.

    The Navigator has also been around quite a while at this point, and there are at least a hundred of them out there. I think the Ilur is a new design, and Vivier doesn't have the presence here that John Welsford does. Language barriers may be a factor.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Thanks for that Ben.

    Can you tell me what makes Ilur a better rowing boat than Navigator, from a technical point of view? I note that they are of similar dimensions in the beam (5'10" Navigator vs 5'7" Ilur) and that Ilur is a heavier vessel. Is it an issue of hull shape?

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Ben, I think the Ilur is actually one of Vivier’s older sail & oar boats, and has been through several iterations as FV evolved it for home builders, from the original strip construction, to glued lap with bent in frames, to the current glued lap with fewer sawn frames. It can take a small outboard (longshaft), though I only row mine. I have rowed 13 miles at a stretch, in 4 & 1/2 hours or so with a friendly tide, and similar distances on Lake Champlain, with no tidal currents, each time with the boat carrying dunnage for a 3-4 day trip. I like rowing. I’m guessing about 2 or 2 & 1/2 miles per hour at a sustainable pace, using 9.5 foot spoons.

    I agree with you and Ian that the Navigator is likely drier when it breezes up because of it’s half decks, but I have single handed my Ilur in conditions where she was capable and mannerly beyond my level of comfort. For day sailing, the Ilur will take 4 adults, but moving around in the boat requires thoughtful choreography.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 05-31-2019 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
    Ben/Timo can you explain further? Were you suggesting Ilur would not take an outboard, and if I wanted that capability, to choose Navigator?

    Timo, what do you mean by "Perhaps some want speed too?" Sorry if I'm being thick.
    Ilur can take an outboard, no problems about that. However, Some people love motor-less sailing and thatfore choose sail & oars boats. Ilur is designed to be rowed, although Vivier's Aber is more ideal for that but less stable. I don't know if anybody seriously tries to row the beamier Navigator. In the picture below you can see Ilurs rowed. A boomless misainier sail (standing lug) makes rowing even easier.



    English is my 2nd language, so sorry if I'm not clear in my expressions always. Those who want speed usually prefer planing hulls. Navigator has a planing hull while Ilur doesn't, thus Navigator sails faster. However, lug sail versions of Ilur perform pretty well especially in light air.

    I think this forum is somehow more favorable for mr. Welsford's designs. They are are great for sure (and actually I'm building one of them at moment), but Vivier's boats have their own charm and would deserve more attention too. Myself I dream to build an Ilur in the future.

    As you mentioned Postman Pat earlier, I have to say he was one of my favorites some decades ago. Despite of being a landlubber he has a bit of boating experience too.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Thanks for the clarification, Timo. Don't worry, your English is impressive. Ahhh Greendale. Ted the boatman sounds just like my father-in-law. In my younger days we used to carry on an absurdist fantasy that as the most English person of all, Postman Pat was secretly running the country, sort of a shadowy figure holding the marionette strings of the dancing politicians...

    Anyway, which of Welsford's designs are you building and why?

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    When you follow the world politics you sometimes feel there must be a madman holding the marionette strings. Perhaps Pat's influence is broader than we have assumed...

    You asked about my boat building project. Well, I have been building a SCAMP designed by John Welsford. We already have a wooden Wayfarer dinghy which meets our needs for family trailer sailing in the Finnish Lakeland or the archipelagos but it's not ideal for single-handed sailing or for short trips when you want to launch quickly. Scamp fills the gap and also should be a good boat to teach sailing and sailing in a fleet.

    If my fleet consisted of only one boat it would be either an Ilur or a Navigator.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I would have to say it really depends on your intended use. Both boats are very well designed, and suit their purpose, but I feel their design brief are slightly different.
    Both will take a crew of 4-5, and can be sailed by one.
    Both have design influence from historic fishing vessel type, from different regions.
    If your sailing grounds are mostly light to medium winds with moderate sea state, and rowing is something you actually enjoy, I would look at the Ilur.
    If your sailing grounds are open ocean swell of 2-6m and medium to strong winds, I would choose the Navigator. (The video of the Navigator posted by Timo in post #3 is of myself, my wife and a friend, in False Bay, in 20-28knots.)
    The real issue is that the Navigator can sail in light winds but may well be slower than the Ilur, but when it blows up worse than you expected, I would rather be in the Navigator. The yawl rig allows so many variations, I have sailed downwind back to the launch ramp in 34knots under jib & mizzen, and when I had to beat home in the same conditions, 2 reefs in the main with the jib, with mizzen struck, worked best on the day. I have rigged a smaller jib tacked off the bow, so I can furl the main jib, and raise the storm jib, with this setup I will probably be able to sail upwind in 40knots, though I haven't had to yet, the day will come.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Steve,

    I measure wind speeds coming off the Beaufort Sea as part of my job, and sailing Navigator (or any dinghy) in winds 34+ kts is pretty impressive. I've enjoyed your videos; you do the Navigator crowd proud.

    I recently came across Dave Perillo's account of sailing his Navigator in Fiji under similar conditions, having his mizzen snap off, loading his crew at the stern whilst surfing down waves to avoid pitchpoling and other misadventures. He mentions that he tries to reef his jib by partially roll furling but that this put the center of effort too high and that he wished he had a storm jib. Interesting read, you can find it here: https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05.../fiji/free.htm

    I bought Navigator plans last night, so it looks like the stage is set for another build thread as soon as high summer winds down, the garden veggies are harvested, the berries picked off the hillsides, the salmon and caribou are in the freezer, the tourists go back home and I finally get a moment to myself.

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Hi Cole,
    You're going to love the Navigator, good choice. I'm sure folks will scoff at the wind strength claims that some Navigator sailors say they have been caught out in, the day we sailed back under jib & mizzen (and my mizzen didn't break!), I went online and downloaded the wind graph for the time we sailed (6-7pm) at the site we launched at, as I was curious as to what the wind actually was. At the time I estimated 'gusting over 30knots' and I wasn't far wrong. I know we (sailors) are quite good at over-estimating the wind strength to allow for a better story, but in this case it was real. We were 3 adults and my 10year old daughter, and we were surfing down waves, probably getting 8knots or more out of the boat, well loaded and under small rig. Earlier in the day we had sailed upwind to the beach site we had lunch at in 20-25knots, fully rigged, with 3 of us (210kg) up on the side decks. I now tend reef earlier and sit in the boat, this places much less strain on the rig - I found the yard had a split in it which has since been repaired. If you sail solo you'll have to go first reef at around 15knots, 2nd reef at around 20.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I love the looks of both. Timo8188, I would think the Nv to be pretty close to a wooden wayfarer. I mention that because I have a plastic Wayfarer (copy--CL 16) and a Coquina. So the planing characteristics of the CL 16 have been very interesting to compare to the Coquina. I go through phases where I sail one more than the other, but I would never choose a plastic boat over a wooden one. So in the back of my mind I am always looking for the time to start another one.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Steve, you really hit the nail with your comment on the intended use. As I sail more in sheltered inland waters and like sail & oars philosophy, I'm more biased to prefer Ilur.

    Cole, congratulations for making the decision; Navigator is a wonderful boat!

    Dave, I agree with you. If you want to build a wooden boat as close to Wayfarer as possible a sloop-rigged Navigator is probably your closest option, although some may point at Fulmar too. Still, if I would prefer a yawl or a lug yawl rig instead. Coquina looks like a pretty boat.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
    Thanks for that Ben.

    Can you tell me what makes Ilur a better rowing boat than Navigator, from a technical point of view? I note that they are of similar dimensions in the beam (5'10" Navigator vs 5'7" Ilur) and that Ilur is a heavier vessel. Is it an issue of hull shape?

    Cole
    Just so.

    My remark about language barriers was directed at the fact that this is a mostly American/English forum, and our French compatriots are less well represented. In that same vein, John Welsford is an active member of this forum, and his SCAMP has been immensely popular. I wouldn't say a negative thing about either designer or designs.


    Congrats on choosing one BlackBear! The Navigator will make you happy.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Don't know if you decided on aux power yet, but I note that some Nav owners do row. There was a thread on this a few years ago: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...reboard-design

    This is "Surfbird" under oars:


    As a frequent rower of another Welsford design, I would rate my Walkabout which is more optimized for oars as a 3 kt rower, Navigator looks like more of a 2.5 kt (Ilur probably rows about the same speed as Nav).

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Welcome to the Welsford Club. When picking a sail plan don't forget that balanced lug yawl is now an option.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Congrats on choosing a design! Although I chose Ilur, it was a close-run thing, and I still get a pang now and then when I see a particularly beautiful Navigator. I love bowsprits!

    Here's a couple of pix to sharpen your appetite.

    Navigator.jpg

    Navigator Slip Jig.jpg

    Cheers,

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    So Falcon1,

    What made you choose Ilur? Did you consider Beg-Meil?

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I think it was the more "traditional" look of Ilur to make a long story short. I think Beg-Meil and Navigator would share a lot of characteristics. I just noticed your location, and I think the side decks and coamings will be very helpful in keeping crew a bit drier and more secure-feeling.

    As much as I love bowsprits, I chose the lug-yawl configuration for Ilur designed by M. Vivier in response to a request from forumite John Hartmann. I'm hoping having the main mast up in the "eyes" of the boat and the mizzen all the way at the stern will leave a very spacious, open feeling to the interior.

    And, at least at the beginning, I plan to have big-a$$ oars as my secondary means of propulsion. And sculling over the stern as well.

    Have you ordered your plans yet?

    John Welsford seems to be an incredibly receptive and thoughtful designer, and he shares a lot of info here on the forum. Vivier is very responsive and receptive, too. Just not here.

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    Hi Mike,

    Yes, plans ordered. And you're right about Welsford being receptive. He responds to my emails very quickly and comprehensively.

    The decks and coaming did have a lot to do with the decision, as well as all the dry storage. When it's good, Prince William Sound is really good. When it's not good, it's terrible.

    Cole

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    IMG-5543.jpg
    I was out pulling shrimp pots recently. This is a friend's boat, not mine, but you get the idea with the scenery. This is when it's "good."

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    That is my boat in post 27. I recently sailed along with an Ilur and in the conditions of that day (13-14 knots) we were pretty closely matched. In higher winds the owner tried going to windward without the jib and made very slow progress. That was because he didn't have reef points set up on the main. I think it would have been a different story if it had been. The Navigator is a GREAT boat.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    reading though this thread I can share a little more regarding rowing. In my opinion The Navigator doesn't have a good place to stow oars that are long enough to do the job well. you would have to sit on the centerboard trunk to be in the right position and then you have the boom thwacking you up side the head. On outboard does buy you the ability to stretch your cruising territory by allowing you to get back from a farther distance if needed. I have never tried to row "slip jig", in fact I didn't even make any provisions for that but I can't imagine it being enjoyable to row. The Ilur has space designed in the bilge under the floorboards to stow oars neatly and out of the way.

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    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I think it was unfair of Mike in post 27 to show photos of Slip-Jig, Now how does anyone reading this thread NOT want a Navigator !
    I haven't rowed my Navigator yet, (have paddled home 10nm in no wind & large rolling swell with a seasick wife/crew, with a single blade paddle,
    which I'm going to assume is less fun than rowing, and took 5 hours), but I've fitted oarlocks and will have oars on board as a backup - outboards sometimes
    stop working, so having a third means of propulsion is a safety plan for me. Agree that the outboard extends the distance that I'm prepared to venture away
    from my launch site.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    LONG BEACH, CA.USA
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: Really curious: Ilur vs Navigator

    I have some thoughts on rowing an Ilur. I finished my Ilur about May 2018 (an Ilur in California) Built two sets of oars for it, as you can have two men at the oars. And you need two hands rowing in any kind of a breeze. The Ilur is more of a sail boat than oar, and rowing is a job except in calmer and less breezy waters. A few days ago I was out with my friend sailing Ilur off Long Beach CA. when a puff of wind heeled me over...I correct with a rudder movement to point a little higher when the rudder cheek broke right off. So down with the sail and I was glad for the 3.5 hp outboard on the transom. I had about 5-6 miles to get back my launch site and the motor brought me off the ocean and into the channel about a mile before it ran out of fuel. We were still faced with a mile or two row but I got a tow from a power boat going in that direction. You can easily fit a ling shaft outboard to the Ilur but I believe I need a rudder keeper of some type to keep the rudder amidship and not get bit by the prop (which did happen). The Suzuki DT3.5 is an old motor (1982) and has proven finicky at times. I am considering a newer engine that is 4 stroke. I don't know if a 2.5 HP is enough....4HP would be more than fine.

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