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Thread: Boeing. Will it rebound?

  1. #1
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    Default Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Chatted with an advertising exec for a major Boeing customer. He told me that one of the minor expenses Boeing is facing is hiring a Crisis Management Team for each airline that puts the Max back on line. In his particular case, it will be well beyond $1M to convince customers the plane is safe.
    Then, there's the costs to each airline of keeping planes on the ground, and cancelling flights.
    Then, there are payments to the families of those who died. Not to mention the two lost multimillion dollar aircraft.
    Meanwhile, Airbus is rolling.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Boeing will rebound just fine, methinks. Too much money to be made... too many influential national politician friends... for it to go otherwise.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Boeing will rebound just fine, methinks. Too much money to be made... too many influential national politician friends... for it to go otherwise.
    No airline will go against its business interests to purchase Boeing products over other aircraft, at least not without massive government interference. So it depends entirely on what public perception of the product is, not whether it is good or bad.
    If negative public perception remains, some airlines will chose other aircraft, and that will give the public the opportunity to choose not to fly on Boeing. Then those airlines will advertise themselves as "Boeing free for your safety" or some such, which will continue the negative connection in the public mind. That could kill Boeing.

    It may not go that way, but it easily could.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    At the moment, Boeing is digging itself deeper into the hole.

    Boeing is seeing the issue in terms of public relations, but the flying public are seeing it in terms of Boeing making and selling an airplane that seems, to the non-specialist, inherently dangerous, and which depends on "software" to keep it flying. The punters are not going to be persuaded by a "software patch".

    If I were an airline CEO, would I order a 737-MAX? No, because my passengers might not choose to fly in it.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    boeing the company will rebound. the planes that hit the ground, sadly, will not.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    I wonder, China just ordered. 300 planes from air bus, Trump's trade war is coming at a tough time for Boeing.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    From this distance, it seems a pity that Boeing chose to discontinue the 757, and to concentrate on ever fatter 737s.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    This makes me sick!


    The official, Boeing vice president Mike Sinnett, who does not appear to know he was being recorded, claimed what happened to Lion Air was once-in-a-lifetime type scenario."I don't know that understanding this system would've changed the outcome on this. In a million miles, you're going to maybe fly this airplane, maybe once you're going to see this, ever. So we try not to overload the crews with information that's unnecessary so they actually know the information we believe is important," the Sinnett said.
    The pilots in the room were not satisfied with that answer. "We're the last line of defense to being in that smoking hole. And we need the knowledge," one pilot said.”



    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737-max-audio-reveals-pilots-confronting-official-about-features-suspected-in-deadly-crashes-2019-05-14/
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I wonder, China just ordered. 300 planes from air bus, Trump's trade war is coming at a tough time for Boeing.
    Air New Zealand did a comprehensive evaluation before those two 737s crashed, and bought A320s.
    I'm glad they did, I've a few, a very few mind you, shares in Air NZ.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Boeing are still digging themselves into a hole.

    Airbus cannot make enough 320s to replace the 737 MAXs on order, but that doesn’t really make up for Boeing having foisted a bad aircraft on their customers.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Boeing are still digging themselves into a hole.

    Airbus cannot make enough 320s to replace the 737 MAXs on order, but that doesn’t really make up for Boeing having foisted a bad aircraft on their customers.
    The incredible stupidity around the whole MAX saga and how they have handled it has destroyed trust in the company. How long until some of their people are sent to the big house?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    They will rebound.

    As for passengers, they want cheap flights, period.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    $13.9 billion in new military contracts awarded to Boeing so far this year.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    This makes me sick!


    The official, Boeing vice president Mike Sinnett, who does not appear to know he was being recorded, claimed what happened to Lion Air was once-in-a-lifetime type scenario."I don't know that understanding this system would've changed the outcome on this. In a million miles, you're going to maybe fly this airplane, maybe once you're going to see this, ever. So we try not to overload the crews with information that's unnecessary so they actually know the information we believe is important," the Sinnett said.
    The pilots in the room were not satisfied with that answer. "We're the last line of defense to being in that smoking hole. And we need the knowledge," one pilot said.”



    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737-max-audio-reveals-pilots-confronting-official-about-features-suspected-in-deadly-crashes-2019-05-14/


    Seriously?? An understanding of the system absolutely could have saved them. Put the flaps to 5 and MCAS is disabled completely. Sure they went with the quick reference book and shut off the stab, but that has it’s problems. The problem started at flaps up. Put them back out and go land.


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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Seriously?? An understanding of the system absolutely could have saved them. Put the flaps to 5 and MCAS is disabled completely. Sure they went with the quick reference book and shut off the stab, but that has it’s problems. The problem started at flaps up. Put them back out and go land.


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    Tom - I follow your posts as carefully as I can.

    I absolutely agree with what you write, there.

    But Boeing would have had to write into the QRH “To disable the system that we haven’t told you about, put flaps to 5”. Instead of which Boeing had to pretend that an MCAS malfunction was a stabiliser trim runaway.

    Sinnett’s attitude killed those people.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    I used to work for an American medical device company which had pioneered a market leading product some 20-30 years ago. I got seconded into the R&D department at head office from a career in Europe and was a bit dismayed to find that the generation of engineers who actually, truly, understood the product were just about gone and had either not been able to pass on, or rather shamefully in some cases, jealously held on to their 'tribal knowledge'. I wonder if Boeing has forgotten the origin and reasoning behind the important stuff too?

    I don't suppose it is just a US thing, it may be the case in any company that has been doing things for a period of time and not paid attention to a healthy culture. It is difficult for me to articulate the reasons why but regulators are just not effective at spotting this and effectively controlling the mess that happens afterwards. Maybe companies like this just need to die at a certain point and clear the field for innovators who necessarily know their product inside out? I can guarantee that the Boeing executive talking in that recording had only the most superficial imaginable knowledge of what he was talking about.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I used to work for an American medical device company which had pioneered a market leading product some 20-30 years ago. I got seconded into the R&D department at head office from a career in Europe and was a bit dismayed to find that the generation of engineers who actually, truly, understood the product were just about gone and had either not been able to pass on, or rather shamefully in some cases, jealously held on to their 'tribal knowledge'. I wonder if Boeing has forgotten the origin and reasoning behind the important stuff too?

    I don't suppose it is just a US thing, it may be the case in any company that has been doing things for a period of time and not paid attention to a healthy culture. It is difficult for me to articulate the reasons why but regulators are just not effective at spotting this and effectively controlling the mess that happens afterwards. Maybe companies like this just need to die at a certain point and clear the field for innovators who necessarily know their product inside out? I can guarantee that the Boeing executive talking in that recording had only the most superficial imaginable knowledge of what he was talking about.
    Very well said. I can think of examples in my own field of companies with “world leading” products which, after thirty years or more of repeated tweaking for a bit more this, a bit less that, and suchlike “suddenly” went disastrously wrong.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Very well said. I can think of examples in my own field of companies with “world leading” products which, after thirty years or more of repeated tweaking for a bit more this, a bit less that, and suchlike “suddenly” went disastrously wrong.
    Smart money would walk away from Boeing and fund young engineers to make a new generation of products that they are properly, intellectually, invested in. Just look at SpaceX vs the rump of NASA and firms like ULA.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Valid point. The basic 737 design is 50 years old. But the capital cost of a new airliner is many billions, and even then it’s a gamble.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    $13.9 billion in new military contracts awarded to Boeing so far this year.
    Perhaps they will become strictly a defense contractor.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Airbus are not the problem: they have sold all their 320 family production for the next four years.

    The problem is of Boeing’s own making. After decades as civil aviation’s most trusted aircraft builders, they are really struggling with the idea that they might no longer be so trusted.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Airbus are not the problem: they have sold all their 320 family production for the next four years.

    The problem is of Boeing’s own making. After decades as civil aviation’s most trusted aircraft builders, they are really struggling with the idea that they might no longer be so trusted.
    Major change in the corporate culture after the merger with MD.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    I'm of the opinion that far too many of the bean counters at the new Chicago HQ have never grabbed onto the controls of a g-d dammed airplane.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    To continue, I know nothing of how common it might be to correct severe trim problems with the tail empanage, but this scenarion wherein the Max's new LARGER ENGINES had to be mounted FARTHER FORWARD in order to clear the ground without lengthening the landing gear (need to match older 737's at the gate), which required a drastic change in how the aircraft was TRIMMED, in order to avoid something more sensible, like maybe moving the center of lift (wings) forward has not been sufficiently explained to me. Why should I fly a NOSE-HEAVY aircraft which requires bull**** make-shift trim adjustments in order to avoid diving directly into the ground?

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    I'm of the opinion that far too many of the bean counters at the new Chicago HQ have never grabbed onto the controls of a g-d dammed airplane.
    David Halberstam wrote a 1986 book about the period 1950 -1980 and the histories of Nissan and Ford. ( name a great 1980 Ford.) Nissan was managed by engineers moving up through the ranks. Ford was managed by accountants. Nuff said. Fascinating book.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Bronco, F150, Econoline

    Datsun made nothing in 1980 to compete with any of those vehicles.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Bronco, F150, Econoline

    Datsun made nothing in 1980 to compete with any of those vehicles.
    Ummm...isn't that pretty much "vehicle" rather than "vehicles"? I'm under the impression that those are pretty much body types on a single platform.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    To continue, I know nothing of how common it might be to correct severe trim problems with the tail empanage, but this scenarion wherein the Max's new LARGER ENGINES had to be mounted FARTHER FORWARD in order to clear the ground without lengthening the landing gear (need to match older 737's at the gate), which required a drastic change in how the aircraft was TRIMMED, in order to avoid something more sensible, like maybe moving the center of lift (wings) forward has not been sufficiently explained to me. Why should I fly a NOSE-HEAVY aircraft which requires bull**** make-shift trim adjustments in order to avoid diving directly into the ground?
    The problem is actually the opposite of what you said. The larger engines mounter further forward actually created lift fret her forward during high angles of attack which then required the nose down trim to correct. The landing gear issue was not to match height, it's just the fact that there isn't room for taller landing gear. Boeing was really just tryin to re-engine an existing airframe as cheaply as possible.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    I'll fly on 737 Max when it's back, and it will be back. There is no basic design flaw in the re-engined aircraft. Two aircraft crashed because of the failure of a negligently designed sub system to "cover" a potential situation that has less than a one in a hundred thousand probability of occurring.

    I would like to eventually see the full details of the MCAS addition presented as an engineering case study, with full bakground, including all inputs of everyone involved at the time, along with retrospective views. The names of those involved need not be revealed.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I'll fly on 737 Max when it's back, and it will be back. There is no basic design flaw in the re-engined aircraft. Two aircraft crashed because of the failure of a negligently designed sub system to "cover" a potential situation that has less than a one in a hundred thousand probability of occurring.

    I would like to eventually see the full details of the MCAS addition presented as an engineering case study, with full bakground, including all inputs of everyone involved at the time, along with retrospective views. The names of those involved need not be revealed.
    I would like to see that as well. I don't think we will see anything that in depth though. Hopefully I'm wrong.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    I'll just point out that when Boeing succeed in getting the 737-MAX re-certified with nothing more than a software patch, in a few days time, this will reinforce the corporate behaviour that led to the crashes in the first place.
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    "Nothing more than a software patch" - uninformed nonsense.

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Tell us about the hardware changes then...

    Inquiring minds 'n all...
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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I'll fly on 737 Max when it's back, and it will be back. There is no basic design flaw in the re-engined aircraft. Two aircraft crashed because of the failure of a negligently designed sub system to "cover" a potential situation that has less than a one in a hundred thousand probability of occurring.

    I would like to eventually see the full details of the MCAS addition presented as an engineering case study, with full background, including all inputs of everyone involved at the time, along with retrospective views. The names of those involved need not be revealed.
    Sorry, it isn't a "potential situation"... it's a fatal flaw that killed hundreds of people and it occurred at 25 times the background rate of all airliner crashes last year. Not forgetting that "all airliner crashes" includes Russian and Chinese planes, weather-related crashes, etc. The second thing to consider is why it happened... and the why, as outlined in this and other threads beggars belief. Boeing deserves to die.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Boeing. Will it rebound?

    Boeing was about to announce the new medium size aircraft (NMA). This was to be an all new B-757 replacement to be flying in the early 2020s. Airbus announces the A320NEO which would be flying years earlier and do the same thing as the NMA, but years earlier. Boeing decides to re-engine the 737 to get something to market to compete with the NEO. And here we are.
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