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Thread: Trump must be elected for a second term

  1. #1
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    Default Trump must be elected for a second term

    If the USA is going to heal.

    I love these guys podcasts - i recommend them all.
    But this is an interesting insight; that if Trump were impeached it would (in the minds of the Trumpistas) confirm the conspiracy the right believes exists, and probably cleave the two sides of politics apart irrevocably.

    Even not being re-elected might cause the rift to go beyond repair.

    But, for him to run his course and fizz out and disappear after 2 terms could be the very best outcome for America.

    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...05-01/11043784

    or here;

    https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aH...=1557886604379

    Warning: if you are a Trump devotee you won't enjoy how he is described.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    No. Just no. Can you imagine the damage to this country? After little more than two years he has done major damage. Eight years would be truly catastrophic.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    That is some 10th level Orwell doublespeak bull****.
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    Default

    What makes you think iDJT, or his Designated Successor (tm) would voluntarily quit after two terms? This is a guy, after all, who apparently seems to think that he's owed 2 more years because of the Russia investigation.

    https://theweek.com/speedreads/83961...a-years-office

    I like the idea of just hanging the traitors.

    But I can see civil war from here.
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Oil and Water!
    The US needs an emulsifier.....
    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    What gypsie (the OP) doesn't understand is, trump is not president. Trump merely tweets nonsense and retweets anyone who praises him.
    The edicts of this administration are created by a gang consisting of Miller, Bolton, Pompeo, and several others. Minor synchophants like DeVos and Carson are allowed to run their offices without interference. Trump could care less.
    Ask me! I've got my Leatherman!

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    You really should give the podcast a try and then consider.

    You'll be amazed at how much you agree with.

    Though probably not the re-election part clearly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    What gypsie (the OP) doesn't understand is, trump is not president. Trump merely tweets nonsense and retweets anyone who praises him.
    The edicts of this administration are created by a gang consisting of Miller, Bolton, Pompeo, and several others. Minor synchophants like DeVos and Carson are allowed to run their offices without interference. Trump could care less.
    Well GW wasn't the President either, president Cheney, Rummy et al called the shots there and hundreds of thousands paid, and are still paying with their lives.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    No. Just no. Can you imagine the damage to this country? After little more than two years he has done major damage. Eight years would be truly catastrophic.
    Never mind America, it made its bed, and can sleep in it.
    Dolt 45 is screwing with the rest of the world as well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    I can see his point about impeachment, although I'm not at all sure I agree.. A pathological narcissist can never, ever accept responsibility, and will always blame anyone but himself; our resident Trumpkins are already blathering on about a 'coup'.

    A more plausible scenario to wake you up at 3AM: Trump loses in 2020. The Russians interfere with the elections just enough to cause significant chaos and put the result in doubt. Trump claims he really won, and that the election's a 'coup', and the Trumpkins agree.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I can see his point about impeachment, although I'm not at all sure I agree.. A pathological narcissist can never, ever accept responsibility, and will always blame anyone but himself; our resident Trumpkins are already blathering on about a 'coup'.

    A more plausible scenario to wake you up at 3AM: Trump loses in 2020. The Russians interfere with the elections just enough to cause significant chaos and put the result in doubt. Trump claims he really won, and that the election's a 'coup', and the Trumpkins agree.
    That's exactly what I'm afraid of & it seems very possible - maybe even likely.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    That's exactly what I'm afraid of & it seems very possible - maybe even likely.
    Or even 'inevitable'.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    gypsie misspelled. Trump, McConnell, and the Right Wing Republican authoritarian populists are all about bringing the nation to heel.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Unlike physics, almost nothing in politics s inevitable. OTOH, I'd bet a fair amount that the Russians are planning something like that at this very minute. One might think that the Republicans would want their election victory to be unquestionable, and would be doing everything possible to avoid the possibility that foreign interference would cast doubt on their future triumphs. That they aren't is - well, interesting.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Unlike physics, almost nothing in politics s inevitable. OTOH, I'd bet a fair amount that the Russians are planning something like that at this very minute. One might think that the Republicans would want their election victory to be unquestionable, and would be doing everything possible to avoid the possibility that foreign interference would cast doubt on their future triumphs. That they aren't is - well, interesting.


    the russians don't need a plan, they've got you doing it for them.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the russians don't need a plan, they've got you doing it for them.
    And Pompeo is chasing with Putin as we speak. Of course, we'll not know what's discussed until Trump whitewashes it for public consumption.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    The Russians don't need a plan, they've got you doing it for them.
    You cannot possibly be that much of a fool.

    Several things are known beyond a reasonable doubt.
    1. The Russians interfered with the last presidential election. How effective that interference was is a matter of debate
    2. Th Trump administration has made little or no effort to prevent such interference in the future, and has actually shut down certain measures to prevent it.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You cannot possibly be that much of a fool.

    Several things are known beyond a reasonable doubt.
    1. The Russians interfered with the last presidential election. How effective that interference was is a matter of debate
    2. Th Trump administration has made little or no effort to prevent such interference in the future, and has actually shut down certain measures to prevent it.

    i witness the "effectiveness" of their plan with every post yall make about "the russsians"

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    One might think that the Republicans would want their election victory to be unquestionable,
    They live the meme - 'winning isn't everything, it's the _only_ thing'.

    and nature agrees.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Looking forward to a second term of Trump would sorta be like looking forward to a circumcision.......I despise him and all those who surround and support him.
    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation......Thoreau

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i witness the "effectiveness" of their plan with every post yall make about "the russsians"
    I'm sure your right, the Russians would never try to interfere with an election

    TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — Russian hackers gained access to voter databases in two Florida counties ahead of the 2016 presidential election, Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis said at a news conference Tuesday.

    https://www.apnews.com/a2af9039533b42bba0e4e04af11ecd67
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    I'm sure your right, the Russians would never try to interfere with an election

    TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — Russian hackers gained access to voter databases in two Florida counties ahead of the 2016 presidential election, Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis said at a news conference Tuesday.

    https://www.apnews.com/a2af9039533b42bba0e4e04af11ecd67


    and?

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    and?
    Just sayin'
    Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race. H. G. Wells

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    What freakin' nonsense.

    If he served 8 years, this country is DONE. FINISHED.

    He either needs to get decisively smashed in the 2020 election, or drop dead of a heart attack, stat.
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Resistance is NOT futile.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    What freakin' nonsense.

    If he served 8 years, this country is DONE. FINISHED.

    He either needs to get decisively smashed in the 2020 election, or drop dead of a heart attack, stat.


    what hyperbolic buffoonery.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    what hyperbolic buffoonery.
    You know all about that don't you?

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    You know all about that don't you?

    you paid your bills this month sv? if you want to keep posting drivel, you'll be needing those utilities on

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Donald won't win in 2020. The Russians will make damn sure of it. Their success will be predicated on just how close they can manage the loss. Their goal was never to make Trump the leader of the free world. It was to sow as much discord as possible. That he won was merely proof that their tactics were even more effective than they had hoped. Next time around, if they're successful, he'll lose by just enough for him to claim that coup and call for a popular uprising. Would his base actually take up arms? That's a question I suspect we'll see answered in 2020.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    A more complex analysis by Thomas Edsell

    It didn’t take long after President Trump took office for conflicting views about the strength and duration of his legacy to surface.

    A “regime” theory of the presidency — developed in “The Politics Presidents Make” by Stephen Skowronek, a political scientist at Yale — provides the theoretical basis for the view that despite his victory in 2016, Trump represents the final collapse of Reagan-era conservatism. Skowronek described his overall project as a “study of presidents as agents of political change” that produced a framework of “four types of political leadership,” each of which I will explore in more detail below, with and without reference to the seeming anomaly of Trump.

    Jack Balkin, a law professor at Yale, adapting Skowronek’s model, argues that Trump epitomizes the fourth type of political leadership Skowronek identifies because Trump is “in the same structural position as Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter,” caught in an uphill, presumptively doomed, struggle “to hold together the fraying coalition of an exhausted regime.”

    Laying out his argument in the current issue of the Indiana Law Review, Balkin contends that

    Our current political problems stem from the fact that we are in the final days of a crumbling, decadent political regime, and no new regime has yet appeared to take its place.” It will, however, according to Balkin, soon be over. “We will get through it. And when we get through it — about five to ten years from now — the present will seem like a distant, unhappy nightmare, or an illness from which one has recovered.

    In “Democracy and Dysfunction,” a book published last month that Balkin wrote with the constitutional scholar Sanford Levinson, Balkin describes the Trump administration as a “disjunctive” presidency, the last gasp of the vanishing Reagan era that began in 1980.

    Other examples of similarly disjunctive presidencies, Balkin writes, following Skowronek, are John Quincy Adams, James Buchanan, Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter. They have the misfortune to lead the dominant party when the regime is losing its legitimacy and the party’s factions are at each other’s throats.

    For his own part, Skowronek describes the first of his four categories of presidencies as “reconstructive” or transformative. This group is made up of exceptional politicians who found new ways to order the politics of the republic and release the power of government; but they have done so by building personal parties and shattering the politics of the past, actions the Constitution was originally supposed to guard against. Moreover, each of these great political leaders — Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt and Reagan — passed on a newly circumscribed regime, so tenacious as to implicate their successors in another cycle of gradually accelerating political decay.

    These regime-establishing presidents have been followed, historically, by a second cycle of what Skowronek calls “affiliated” presidencies — Harry Truman, John Kennedy, George H.W. and George W. Bush — who basically continue the work of their predecessors.

    A third category (“pre-emptive”) is filled by successful opposition party nominees — Dwight Eisenhower during the ascendancy of the New Deal Coalition, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama when Reagan’s conservative coalition still held sway — “presidents who pre-empt the received agenda and offered an alternative.” Pre-emptive presidents are constrained by the prevailing regime as exemplified by Eisenhower’s support of expanding Social Security and raising the minimum wage and by Bill Clinton’s 1996 declaration that “the era of big government is over.”

    Finally, in Skowronek’s fourth cycle, there are the end-of-era “disjunctive” presidencies like those of Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter, under whom the regime implodes, laying the groundwork for the election of an innovative “reconstructive” president to begin the process once again.

    Balkin and Skowronek contend Trump falls into the same disjunctive category as Hoover and Carter, leading Balkin to argue that

    Trump’s greatest gift to the country is the gift of destruction — not of the country, but of the coalition he leads and the complacent oligarchy that strangles our democracy. The greatest irony of a fool like Trump is that by betraying his working-class base and wrecking his party, he may well help make American democracy great again. He is the unwitting agent of reform.

    Would that it were so.

    The conception of Trump as a momentary phenomenon, a disjunctive president who brings closure to a burned-out Reagan regime, does not necessarily fit the facts in their totality. I raised the question with Steven Levitsky, a political scientist at Harvard who wrote the book “How Democracies Die” with his government department colleague Daniel Ziblatt. Levitsky, responding to my emailed query, wrote:

    There may well be something to the claim that Trump’s is a disjunctive presidency representing the end of the Reagan era. But to jump from there to the conclusion that he does not pose a serious threat to democratic institutions strikes me as facile. Such a claim too easily sets aside important contextual differences between this administration and those of other “disjunctive” presidents.

    Levitsky provided a long list of contemporary factors that distinguish the Trump presidency from the Hoover and Carter presidencies, including extreme partisan polarization along overlapping social/cultural/cleavages, the hardening of partisan identities and the rise of intense negative partisanship, the crystallization of white identities and the perception among some white voters of threat in the face of decades of immigration and steps toward racial equality; dramatically higher levels of income inequality and declining social mobility; the weakening of party elites’ gatekeeping capacity, reinforced by the introduction of party primaries, and, in the context of extreme polarization, the erosion of key democratic norms.

    Levitsky’s argument goes beyond the overarching political environment to Trump’s character. Trump “has shown himself,” Levitsky continued, to be a more openly autocratic figure than any of the other disjunctive president I am aware of. So we have a president with authoritarian instincts in a context of extreme partisan polarization (such that Republicans line up behind Trump no matter what) and weakened norms. That strikes me as quite a bit different — and more threatening — than say, the Carter presidency.

    In addition, Trump must be viewed as the avatar not only of an American political phenomenon but a global one.

    Levitsky argues that the “disjunctive presidency” theory lacks any comparative or global perspective. There are changes occurring globally that have unleashed illiberal or populist right wing reactions across much of the industrialized West. Whether it is globalization, migration and ethnic diversification, technological change, or some combination thereof, at least some of the dynamics that are occurring in the US cannot be understood in a vacuum. It would therefore be silly to assume that the context in which we are operating in 2019 is easily comparable to those of 1924-28 or 1976-80.

    Ziblatt, Levitsky’s co-author, argued in an email that it is a highly risky proposition to take any comfort in a theoretical construct placing Trump as the endpoint of the Reagan era:

    It is very, very dangerous way to feel reassured and to write off the Trump presidency as the final, dying days of the Reagan era. There are certainly analogies to be drawn from earlier eras but it is only an analogy, not a law of history.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    continued. . .

    Trump stands apart from past presidents in his willingness to capitalize on what Ziblatt identifies as an “existential fear” among voters in the face of broad demographic change:

    The huge demographic changes underway in the U.S. since the 1970s have prompted Republican existential fear about the future and an increasingly stiff resistance to democracy itself. Like Conservatives in Europe before 1914 or Southern Democrats in the 1890s, fear of the future means a greater willingness to play dirty and to block the emergence of any “recuperative presidency.”

    Theda Skocpol, professor of government and sociology at Harvard, sharply criticized the Skowronek-Balkin theory because it masks what she contends is a fundamentally different and dangerous moment in American politics:

    We are in a very extreme period in U.S. political history because of the radicalization of the GOP and the apparent willingness of virtually all of its officeholders, candidates, and big donors to go along with authoritarian and anti-democratic measures of many kinds, not just presidential power grabs but legislative and judicial steps to curtail voting and organizational rights of opponents, in essence rigging future electoral contests in a very minority rule direction.

    Skocpol warned of “mechanistic over-optimism,” writing that “things will look very different if Trump is re-elected, as he may very well be.” The current state of politics “is no ordinary cyclical turn,” she notes. “I would rank this period as one of the most conflictual since the late 1960s and early 1930s and the one with the greatest potential for actual regime change since the Civil War.”

    There are some political scientists who generally agree with the Skowronek theory of cyclical regime change but who raise concerns about how well Trump fits into that analytic structure.

    Julia Azari, a political scientist at Marquette University, poses a basic question about attempts to place Trump within a repetitive historical context:

    We have both a president who is distinct in history and an era in political time that differs from previous ones in important structural ways. This combination points to the limits of history as a clear set of instructions for what might happen next.

    In an email, Azari wrote that the overall dynamics of party competition have changed in part because, for the first time in US history as far as I can tell, race and immigration are sorted between the two parties.

    In the case of Trump, Azari points out that Presidents who violate norms, especially those about the boundaries of their power, tend to be reconstructive presidents who reset the terms of debate and the expectations for the presidency — FDR and Jackson are perhaps the clearest examples of this.

    Trump, in this context, is more like a reconstructive president than a disjunctive president:

    Trump has also changed the language and, I think to some degree altered the identity and agenda of the Republican Party — and of the Democrats, who are responding to him. Trump has altered how we use political language — we all use adapted Trumpisms all the time, like make X great again or a riff on “build the wall." He looms large in politics and in culture. This is not a typical disjunctive trajectory.

    Azari was a student of Skowronek’s at Yale and believes his cyclical theory of regime change remains “incredibly useful for looking at politics.”
    Both Azari and Skowronek acknowledge, however, that something that does not fit the theory of regime change may be taking place in American politics.
    Here is how Azari, in an unpublished paper written with Scott Lemieux, a political scientist at the University of Washington, pursues the idea that Trump may not fit into Skowronek’s scheme:

    It is far from obvious the Reagan coalition has become electorally unviable. While it is true that Republicans have lost the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 presidential elections, they have also been the dominant congressional party since 1994, and the fact that the House, Senate and therefore the Electoral College all overrepresent predominantly white rural areas gives the Republican Party as currently constituted a very high electoral floor that will make its consignment to the political wilderness unlikely.

    Instead of setting the stage for a transformative reconstruction of American politics, the country may have entered what Azari and Lemieux call “the long disjunction,” a “new era in American politics where there is not a clear majority party, but there is strong, ideologically-driven partisan contestation.”

    If this is the case, Azari and Lemieux write, the “politics of the long disjunction are unlikely to be pretty.” Instead, they write:

    The combination of the Republicans currently benefiting from the malapportionment of the Senate and the erasure of norms surrounding judicial confirmations makes it more likely that serious clashes between the elected branches and the judiciary will lead to lengthy Supreme Court vacancies and attempts to restrict the power of the courts through formally legal but nonnormative measures like court-packing and jurisdiction-stripping. Government shutdowns in periods of divided government may become more common. Congress is likely to abuse its oversight powers under opposition presidents and let them lay mostly dormant when partisan allies are in the White House. A long disjunction is, above all, a period in which neither party can effectively legitimatize its power, but power will continue to be exercised. This is not a formula for political stability.

    And here is how Skowronek himself addresses the possibility that Trump may represent something not heretofore conceptualized in Skowronek’s own analytic structure, that the Trump presidency may mark the onset of unresolved political competition instead — what Skowronek calls “perpetual political pre-emption.”

    In a podcast of a talk Skowronek delivered on May 2 at the London School of Economics, Skowronek suggested that

    We may be witnessing the long-awaited arrival of the president as a party unto himself, with all the independence in action that that implies. By this reckoning, an uncontested Trump makeover of the Republican Party would mark a profound shift in the historical relationship between the presidency and the American political system.
    A Trump re-election victory in 2020, Skowronek writes, could signal the end of cyclical regimes and a “convergence on a kind of perpetual pre-emption, on a continual, unresolvable shakedown of authority.”

    Despite this possibility, Skowronek believes that his cyclical theory is still likely to hold:

    Trump’s success in consolidating his hold over a new, even more radically skewed Republican Party would be remarkable, but it does not preclude a pivotal defeat in 2020. My wager is that, when all is said and done, this case will confirm the residual strength of the regime-based structure of presidential leadership.
    Skowronek went on:

    If there is something new in Trump’s leadership that claims special attention — something that cannot be bracketed off as a character issue, a personality disorder, or a historical fluke — it lies here, in its forceful push against the boundary condition of affiliation and in its expression of newfound political independence in presidential action. Independence, not only from party ties but from established authority of any kind, portends far more idiosyncratic forms of leadership to come.

    Skowronek’s phrasing — in particular the idea of “newfound political independence in presidential action … from established authority of any kind” — brings to mind authoritarian rather than “idiosyncratic” leadership, which casts new light on Nancy Pelosi’s concern, as The Times put it earlier this month, “that Mr. Trump would not give up power voluntarily if he lost re-election by a slim margin next year.”

    In this country, independence of the president from established authority of any kind is supposed to be impossible. Its emergence represents, at the very least, an erosion of democracy — a nightmare, not a legacy.

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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    I think that what quite a few forget is that the Trump base is actually made up of good intelligent people. The Democratic Party, Hillary specifically, did an excellent job of polarizing the country and the people. Just the simple act of calling them "Deplorables was enough to push them over to Trump. Keep in mind that Joe on the street has an extreme distrust of politicians and they love to see an outsider win. These people, as whole, are not stupid, they are quite intelligent, they are not racist, they are not traitors. What they are is loyal, they have found the outsider, the underdog if you will, that is bucking the establishment, all they see is that he is shaking it up, they see him as "one of them". The Democrats have pushed them over the edge and now they are firmly in the Trump camp and like most of the faithful you find anywhere they get blinded by the hype and only see what they want to see.

    In my mind what will bring everyone back to center is if Trump implodes drastically and majestically, so obvious and blatant that it blows through the fog of super patriot and loyalty, where the common man sees him for what he truly is. It needs to be a clear breach of ethics, policy, or something really drastic. This is the point where I hope our system does what it is designed for and catches him before he does something really damaging. When/if he implodes in this drastic fashion then and maybe only then will his followers see him for what he is.

    I want to say again, the Trump followers are not stupid, they are quite intelligent, they are not racist, they are not traitors.

    I want to direct my energy to healing and not hating. Loving my neighbor not calling him names. I have friends on both sides, friends I love and respect, friends that are leaders of the community, leaders of their field, these friends are not stupid, but they are patriotic and yes these friends are just as polarized as the rest. I have lost their respect in some cases because I don't support Trump and my heart is hurt because of this.

    Please let's work on healing this country and it starts by mending the bonds and bridging the gaps between left and right.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    and?
    A Republican said it, so it must be true. The Russians did interfere in your elections.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    The Democrats have pushed them over the edge and now they are firmly in the Trump camp and like most of the faithful you find anywhere they get blinded by the hype and only see what they want to see.....

    ......... It needs to be a clear breach of ethics, policy, or something really drastic. This is the point where I hope our system does what it is designed for and catches him before he does something really damaging. When/if he implodes in this drastic fashion then and maybe only then will his followers see him for what he is........

    I want to say again, the Trump followers are not stupid, they are quite intelligent, they are not racist, they are not traitors........


    Please let's work on healing this country and it starts by mending the bonds and bridging the gaps between left and right.

    Chad
    Chad I think there are a few observations we might debate in your otherwise broadly agreeable comments. Before picking at those, I can say I am also depressed by our lack of cohesion and confused by our inability to get passed it in ever widening areas of daily life. I agree it's possibly the most dangerous aspect of this mess, and just as complicated to resolve as many of the others challenges and perhaps the first that needs redress.

    I don't think anybody in this context can make another person go over the edge. At least, I prefer to think we are all responsible for our own actions and reactions. To say "Democrats pushed me over the edge and that's why I voted for Trump" (do I have that more or less right?) sounds more like an excuse than a logical reason for doing something. Or put another way: "I did something I might otherwise not have done because you said things that pissed me off." That doesn't fly for me. Adults should know better.

    If people don't recognize by now that Trump is already on the wrong side of integrity, honesty, and decency, they may never do so within the context of a working democracy. I mean: if things need to get worse with his behavior before Trump supporters can see with objectivity who he is, how do we actually get there while preserving the common goods and benefits of democracy? He yields nothing. Even if one thinks our institutions aren't threatened (I think they are), it's clear you find our norms of behavior, our decaying decency and our polity under great threat. Blaming the divide solely on Democrats is at best only half right. Since Trump is Pres and has been for two years, (and for most of that time held Congress too) I must give him and his most avid supporters their share of blame. Improved polity goes nowhere without everyone giving up whatever is in their world that is misinformed, dysfunctional or delusional. ITTTT (It Takes Two To Tango).



    I have friends on both sides, friends I love and respect, friends that are leaders of the community, leaders of their field, these friends are not stupid, but they are patriotic and yes these friends are just as polarized as the rest. I have lost their respect in some cases because I don't support Trump and my heart is hurt because of this.

    I hesitate to suggest but can't but help myself so here! You might mention to those who are "shunning" you for your evolving position that you care about them and can accept them with their opinions as long as they are willing to discuss or at least abide by your opinions without rejecting your friendship.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle

    That your Trump supporting friends can't accept you in spite of your old ties suggests it might be they who are responsible for a significant amount of ranker themselves. Perhaps they see no benefit in studying the ancients for the wisdom of the centuries. There's a lot of introspection required on both sides and it isn't going to get easier unless people start entertaining ideas they don't necessarily agree with at the start. To not do that is a sign of ignorance and according to Aristotle, that's calling it like it is.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 05-15-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Please let's work on healing this country and it starts by mending the bonds and bridging the gaps between left and right.

    That was something you didn't hear from the right during the 8 years of Obama's administration.

    It was, however, what you heard from the right when they ended the Bush/Gore recount.

    Why is that?
    bccphalarope(dot)com

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Trump must be elected for a second term

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Just the simple act of calling them "Deplorables"...I want to say again, the Trump followers are not stupid, they are quite intelligent...

    Except that they took Hillary's "deplorables" comment out of context, as you also did.

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    ...they are not racist...
    Except that they are following a racist, Trump.
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