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Thread: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    I think some people here misinterpreted my intent.

    I am NOT a fan of Biden's candidacy (although I remain a fan of Biden, himself). I think he's too old, and carries too much baggage.

    My suggestion about a Biden/Harris ticket is based on the following observations:

    1) Consider that the two front-runners among the 20+ Democrats who are presumably running, are Biden and Sanders... who are ideologically at the far ends of the philosophical spectrum. What this tell me is that Democratic support is more clustered at the ENDS of the axes, than in between. However, Biden's lead over Bernie shows us that the more moderate/centrist end of the axis is stronger.

    2) Unlike MOST presidential elections, if Biden is chosen as the nominee, the selection of a running mate will be far more critical than normal... because the notion of a vice-president as being a heartbeat away from the Presidency, becomes far more significant. As a result, it needs to be someone who is both young, as well as not too far, ideologically, from Biden. Harris fits that bill.

    3) To repeat an argument I made, in the OP: A Biden candidacy will lose less, from the very progressive end of the Democratic party, than a Sanders candidacy would, among moderates and independents.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  2. #37
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    1) Consider that the two front-runners among the 20+ Democrats who are presumably running, are Biden and Sanders... who are ideologically at the far ends of the philosophical spectrum. What this tell me is that Democratic support is more clustered at the ENDS of the axes, than in between. However, Biden's lead over Bernie shows us that the more moderate/centrist end of the axis is stronger.
    Consider that the election is a year and a half away, the ridiculous eternal US presidential campaign is just getting started, and Biden and Sanders are by far the best-known among the 357 people running so far. I don't think the fact that they have the highest poll numbers at this point tells us anything useful about the preferences of the electorate, particularly not in such detail. It's too big a conclusion from too little data, with too many other factors.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  3. #38
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Consider that the election is a year and a half away, the ridiculous eternal US presidential campaign is just getting started, and Biden and Sanders are by far the best-known among the 357 people running so far. I don't think the fact that they have the highest poll numbers at this point tells us anything useful about the preferences of the electorate, particularly not in such detail. It's too big a conclusion from too little data, with too many other factors.
    I understand what you're getting at... but if Biden and Sanders' positions at the top of the list is merely a consequence of name recognition, than it would have begun to fade, by now.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  4. #39
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Consider that the election is a year and a half away, the ridiculous eternal US presidential campaign is just getting started, and Biden and Sanders are by far the best-known among the 357 people running so far. I don't think the fact that they have the highest poll numbers at this point tells us anything useful about the preferences of the electorate, particularly not in such detail. It's too big a conclusion from too little data, with too many other factors.
    Careful, someone will think you've joined the 2nd amendment crowd!

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Eh? Oh, right, .357 is a standard gun bore size.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  6. #41
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    I wanna put all the Democratic candidates in a big, posh hotel somewhere.

    You know, like Constantine.

    Feed 'em, booze 'em, send in the dancin' girls/boys/whatever to taste . . .



    And not let 'em leave until they have ALL agreed that the 'Republican' Party is an existential threat to Liberal Democracy itself.



    Because that is what is lacking in the Democratic Party: Recognition of that basic fact, and the courage to talk about it.

    The courage to say 'Look at what these barbarians are trying to create!'

    I want to see Donald Trump on national television, debating a career Federal Prosecutor.


    That's what we need.

    We need the Democratic Party to stand up on its hind legs and grind that hideous minority into paste, and spread it out 3 mils thick.

    No exaggeration.

    Hyperbole, maybe.

    Liberal Democracy was born of the Enlightenment, and has been almost entirely corrupted by money.



    Rattling the teacups.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    Or even better, a young presidential candidate with an older experienced VP...

    Yep. Biden should take one for the team (America) (except for the golden shower scene) and be V.P. again.
    bccphalarope(dot)com

  8. #43
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    To repeat an argument I made, in the OP: A Biden candidacy will lose less, from the very progressive end of the Democratic party, than a Sanders candidacy would, among moderates and independents.
    To repeat my response to your OP:

    That sure worked out well for Democrats in 2016, didn't it?

    Tom
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    If Biden is the Dem candidate, young progressives will stay home and Trump wins. If Sanders is the candidate, old centrists will stay home or vote Trump, and Trump will win.
    I don’t know about the young progressives, but old centrists staying home or voting for Trump? I don’t call that centrism. I think of old centrists as people who have voted Democrat every four years since 1976. I doubt they’d stay home under any circumstances, with Trump in play. And vote for Trump? Nah. They’ll vote for any Democrat, as well the should.

    So rather than cravenly sticking to center/right candidates, we have an opportunity to bring in actual Democrats who’ve been unhappy with the neoliberal crew. I believe it’s clear that Sanders would have won in 2016, because plenty of people who voted for Trump were voting against more-of-the-same, and would have voted for Sanders. I know it’s popular to view Trump voters as ill-educated dolts who don’t merit any attention. No doubt many are. Dare we admit that a pretty fair number of Democrats are racists too, just as there are plenty of well-educated Trump voters? The idea for 2020 is to get as many receptive voters into the Democrat’s tent. And the best way to do that is to actually face the issues of the day. The boat has to be rocked, hard.
    Capitalism is the ideology of parasites.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaseLockedLoop View Post
    I know it’s popular to view Trump voters as ill-educated dolts who don’t merit any attention. No doubt many are . . . The idea for 2020 is to get as many receptive voters into the Democrat’s tent. And the best way to do that is to actually face the issues of the day.
    How can you face the issues with a dolt?

    The existence of people who would have voted for Sanders over Trump is difficult to imagine. Very strong evidence would be required before you spend any real effort on them.

    The dolt world view needs to be attacked with coordination and conviction.

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    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaseLockedLoop View Post
    I don’t know about the young progressives, but old centrists staying home or voting for Trump? I don’t call that centrism. I think of old centrists as people who have voted Democrat every four years since 1976. I doubt they’d stay home under any circumstances, with Trump in play. And vote for Trump? Nah. They’ll vote for any Democrat, as well the should.

    So rather than cravenly sticking to center/right candidates, we have an opportunity to bring in actual Democrats who’ve been unhappy with the neoliberal crew. I believe it’s clear that Sanders would have won in 2016, because plenty of people who voted for Trump were voting against more-of-the-same, and would have voted for Sanders. I know it’s popular to view Trump voters as ill-educated dolts who don’t merit any attention. No doubt many are. Dare we admit that a pretty fair number of Democrats are racists too, just as there are plenty of well-educated Trump voters? The idea for 2020 is to get as many receptive voters into the Democrat’s tent. And the best way to do that is to actually face the issues of the day. The boat has to be rocked, hard.
    Good luck getting the DNC, DSCC, and especially the DCCC to get that. According to them we need to keep doing the same thing & put barely Dems into office. Lots here feel the same way.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  12. #47
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    Default Re: The Democrats' orthogonal axes could get Trump re-elected

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    To repeat my response to your OP:

    That sure worked out well for Democrats in 2016, didn't it?

    Tom
    Still not ready to bury the orthagonal hatchet?

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