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Thread: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well i sure as hail not going to start with armor piercing round and scary black gun red herrings.
    Ok. What do you use armor-piercing rounds for that a ban would even impact you?

    The "black gun" is a red herring. The semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine, high muzzle energy and high rate of fire is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'd be all for a safety training class to own. if you want to hunt in AL you already have to take a hunter safety course and that comes with proper firearm handling. well, it did when i took it 20 something years ago.
    Good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'd be for some advanced training for CC permit holders.
    Another good start.

    How about some storage requirements to keep those who shouldn't be handling your guns and ammo from getting at them if you're not around?

    Most of us here aren't for taking away guns from those who are trained and legally entitled to own them. We do want to see a consistent level of knowledge for ownership in terms of handling/safety to ensure the safety of the general public and to prevent firearms or ammunition from being stolen.

    Personally, I'd like there to be some knowledge of the guns - preferably at the state level - so that if the ownership status of an individual changes due to a felony conviction, marked change in mental health, or has a domestic violence issue going on the guns can be removed and either transferred to a legal owner. sold at the owner's choice, or temporarily held until the issue is cleared up and the firearms could be restored to the owner.
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieBarney View Post
    O.K, I'll bite

    Since you don't have the intelligence to know

    An armour piecing round is one with the following descriptors;

    Made for the military,

    Used to penetrate armour in both hardened and soft skinned targets

    Normally has a hardened rod up the centre of the round, with a sabot, either solid or discarding to allow the round to exit the barrel

    Has absolutely no use in the civilian world

    What you need to do, Sunshine, is start to ask why would a civilian need A.P. ammunition and stop screaming 2nd all the time
    One quibble: The amo that started the controversy was made for police and commercial sale. This controversy has been going on since the 1980s. Here's a story from back then:

    https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/01...9190378795600/
    LOS ANGELES -- Police organizations around the country, and their allies in Congress and at least two state legislatures, are quietly trying to outlaw the apple green bullets they call 'cop-killers.'
    The bullets, available in all pistol calibers, easily punch through 'bullet-proof' vests worn mainly by police officers and politicians.
    Although the amo was developed for use by police officers and originally marketed to police departments, by the '80s they were in demand from gang bangers. Once some police started arguing that the amo should not be available to the general public, the controversy was off and running.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Ok. What do you use armor-piercing rounds for that a ban would even impact you?

    The "black gun" is a red herring. The semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine, high muzzle energy and high rate of fire is not.



    Good start.



    Another good start.

    How about some storage requirements to keep those who shouldn't be handling your guns and ammo from getting at them if you're not around?

    Most of us here aren't for taking away guns from those who are trained and legally entitled to own them. We do want to see a consistent level of knowledge for ownership in terms of handling/safety to ensure the safety of the general public and to prevent firearms or ammunition from being stolen.

    Personally, I'd like there to be some knowledge of the guns - preferably at the state level - so that if the ownership status of an individual changes due to a felony conviction, marked change in mental health, or has a domestic violence issue going on the guns can be removed and either transferred to a legal owner. sold at the owner's choice, or temporarily held until the issue is cleared up and the firearms could be restored to the owner.

    armor piercing rounds are only for killing people wearing body armor right? of all the police killed (and we're hitting record lows for officers killed in the line of duty), how many were killed with armor piercing bullets? i'm guessing NONE. so to bring up something that isn't even an issue, but sounds super scary is just a red herring.

    the only problem i have with requiring people store their guns safely is, who is checking? and when? i'm not for giving the government the authority to come search my house whenever they like to see if my weapons have been secured to their liking.

    i'd be all in for when a felony status changes or say a 24 hour mental evaluation hold occurs, that they would lose their weapons partially or permanently.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    armor piercing rounds are only for killing people wearing body armor right? of all the police killed (and we're hitting record lows for officers killed in the line of duty), how many were killed with armor piercing bullets? i'm guessing NONE. so to bring up something that isn't even an issue, but sounds super scary is just a red herring.
    Well, than if it's just a red herring, the banning of that type of ammo is no big deal, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    the only problem i have with requiring people store their guns safely is, who is checking? and when? i'm not for giving the government the authority to come search my house whenever they like to see if my weapons have been secured to their liking.
    Who's checking? The owner should be. If your stuff is stolen or used in a way that would give rise to legal action, the police or your local fire department if you prefer should have the legal right to inspect your storage. If your stuff was stolen or otherwise accessed to be used in a way that caused legal action, you should be held liable for it, legally - whether that merits a fine or some other legal charges would depend on how negligent the person storing the firearms and ammunition was.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'd be all in for when a felony status changes or say a 24 hour mental evaluation hold occurs, that they would lose their weapons partially or permanently.
    I think you'll find we agree on many things. I think the biggest among them is some basic rules for ownership, purchase, storage and handling of firearms that are common across state lines.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    The fact is, the NRA will oppose all gun control legislation. They don't want a single toehold obtained on gun control, no matter how sensible. They want zero precedent for change. They want zero achievements in the national discussion. This is 180 degrees opposite of their stance in the early days of the NRA.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Well, than if it's just a red herring, the banning of that type of ammo is no big deal, right?




    Who's checking? The owner should be. If your stuff is stolen or used in a way that would give rise to legal action, the police or your local fire department if you prefer should have the legal right to inspect your storage. If your stuff was stolen or otherwise accessed to be used in a way that caused legal action, you should be held liable for it, legally - whether that merits a fine or some other legal charges would depend on how negligent the person storing the firearms and ammunition was.




    I think you'll find we agree on many things. I think the biggest among them is some basic rules for ownership, purchase, storage and handling of firearms that are common across state lines.


    it's a red herring b/c it IS already "banned". there's a definition of "armor piercing rounds" and they're not legal in that definition. there's rounds that fit that description that can't pierce armor, and there's rounds that don't but can pierce armor. which is why i keep asking you, WHAT ROUND ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!! give me an EXACT EXAMPLE to discuss b/c i have no idea what you're talking about.

    well of course the owner checks. but what if i live alone. am i required to keep my guns in a safe? why? b/c someone might steal them? have you watched any videos on safe "cracking"? these guys can get into a gun safe in seconds to a few minutes depending on the safe. so why make a gun owner buy a $1-20k safe that can still be broken into and have the guns stolen relatively easy? most people i know with gun safes know that the only reason to have them is to keep them away from the kids, give a little protection from a fire, and to keep them out of the moisture.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    The fact is, the NRA will oppose all gun control legislation. They don't want a single toehold obtained on gun control, no matter how sensible. They want zero precedent for change. They want zero achievements in the national discussion. This is 180 degrees opposite of their stance in the early days of the NRA.

    hmmmm, that argument sounds familiar.... i've seen it somewhere....

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    hmmmm, that argument sounds familiar.... i've seen it somewhere....

    Yes, you are correct, the NRA learned from the efforts of the anti-abortion crowd, which has a strategy of seeking any toehold, any means of setting precedent.

    And so, the NRA does the opposite, and opposes all legislative efforts.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well of course the owner checks. but what if i live alone. am i required to keep my guns in a safe? why? b/c someone might steal them? have you watched any videos on safe "cracking"? these guys can get into a gun safe in seconds to a few minutes depending on the safe. so why make a gun owner buy a $1-20k safe that can still be broken into and have the guns stolen relatively easy? most people i know with gun safes know that the only reason to have them is to keep them away from the kids, give a little protection from a fire, and to keep them out of the moisture.
    Yes. Even if you live alone, you need a safe or trigger locks - whatever the state decides is “adequate”. Yes, that’s why there are standards for safes. If you buy a sheet metal cabinet that masquerades as a “safe” or a locked glass-fronted cabinet that shows off the rifles, I’d say they shouldn’t meet the standard that the state requires. If they don’t keep someone out for more than 5 minutes, it probably isn’t effective.

    Yes, the primary reason for a safe is for protection of the firearms from theft or other damage, and to keep them out of the hands of unauthorized users. If you don’t provide adequate storage (which should be spelled out) - or any locked storage- and something happens, I think you should lose your right to own firearms.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    I’m not prepared to concede Shannon watts was wrong, but even if she was, the death threats are the point here.

    As far as I’m concerned, if the round pierces a vest ban it, if it doesn’t , keep it. This can be determined in a lab.

    safe storage is one of those laws that are hard to enforce—until a shooting happens with your gun. When enough careless gun owners are rotting in jail or paying financially after their guns are used in killings, and the law will start working is my guess.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Yes. Even if you live alone, you need a safe or trigger locks - whatever the state decides is “adequate”. Yes, that’s why there are standards for safes. If you buy a sheet metal cabinet that masquerades as a “safe” or a locked glass-fronted cabinet that shows off the rifles, I’d say they shouldn’t meet the standard that the state requires. If they don’t keep someone out for more than 5 minutes, it probably isn’t effective.

    Yes, the primary reason for a safe is for protection of the firearms from theft or other damage, and to keep them out of the hands of unauthorized users. If you don’t provide adequate storage (which should be spelled out) - or any locked storage- and something happens, I think you should lose your right to own firearms.
    Nobody is saying they have to be locked up 100% of the time. You can wear yours on the hip all you want or leave it on the nightstand or under the pillow while you sleep all you want. Just lock them up when you are not at home!
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Nobody is saying they have to be locked up 100% of the time. You can wear yours on the hip all you want or leave it on the nightstand or under the pillow while you sleep all you want. Just lock them up when you are not at home!
    I'll agree - that's true to up to a point. If you're not using or carrying the firearm, it should be locked up. However, I don't agree with the nightstand or the under the pillow thing. We've had this discussion here before with Bob Adams who keeps a handgun for personal defense and has had to use it for that purpose. It is possible to have the firearm secure, yet immediately available to you with a quick-access bedside safe that has a biometric lock. The NRA was even selling them.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Yes. Even if you live alone, you need a safe or trigger locks - whatever the state decides is “adequate”. Yes, that’s why there are standards for safes. If you buy a sheet metal cabinet that masquerades as a “safe” or a locked glass-fronted cabinet that shows off the rifles, I’d say they shouldn’t meet the standard that the state requires. If they don’t keep someone out for more than 5 minutes, it probably isn’t effective.

    Yes, the primary reason for a safe is for protection of the firearms from theft or other damage, and to keep them out of the hands of unauthorized users. If you don’t provide adequate storage (which should be spelled out) - or any locked storage- and something happens, I think you should lose your right to own firearms.


    so you're cool with requiring people to spend 10k on a gun safe that meets those standards so they can exercise their 2nd amendment rights.... but a voter ID law is too prohibitive for poor people?

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    so you're cool with requiring people to spend 10k on a gun safe that meets those standards so they can exercise their 2nd amendment rights.... but a voter ID law is too prohibitive for poor people?
    One is necessary - the other is not. In case it isn't clear - we have a problem with guns. Despite the lies of many Reps, we do not have a problem with voting.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    One is necessary - the other is not. In case it isn't clear - we have a problem with guns. Despite the lies of many Reps, we do not have a problem with voting.


    both are your rights. and btw, over half the country doesn't think it's necessary to vote if you'll check the numbers.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    both are your rights. and btw, over half the country doesn't think it's necessary to vote if you'll check the numbers.
    Oh - there's certainly a problem with how few vote! It's you Reps that seem to want to prevent people from exercising that right though.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Oh - there's certainly a problem with how few vote! It's you Reps that seem to want to prevent people from exercising that right though.


    right, and you think getting a FREE id card is too prohibitive for poor people and minorities. but that 10k gun safe is juuuuust fine for people living on welfare.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    right, and you think getting a FREE id card is too prohibitive for poor people and minorities. but that 10k gun safe is juuuuust fine for people living on welfare.
    Exaggerate much? $279 (or payments of $49/month): https://www.thegunbox.com/products/gbplus
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    right, and you think getting a FREE id card is too prohibitive for poor people and minorities.
    If they were TRULY free, I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it.

    The problem: they're not free. If they require a person to spend money to travel to some place where they are issued... or spend money to obtain a copy of a birth certificate they don't have... or require a person to spend ANYTHING to secure their right to vote.... then an ID card is actually a poll tax... and poll taxes are illegal.

    If there was ANY evidence that illegal voting were a significant factor, sufficient to throw an election, I'd feel differently. However, it's been studied countless times... and it's just NOT the case.

    How about this: when we conduct a trial in a courthouse, we require witnesses to take an oath, to tell the truth. Now, we all know that witnesses do violate that oath, from time to time.... but we accept that fact. If they are caught lying, they could be jailed for perjury... but it's pretty rare.

    So, how about we accept an oath from a prospective voter?

    If not, then please answer the question I ask ALL of those who support a voter ID requirement: how many legal voters are you willing to disenfranchise, in order to prevent one illegal voter (who you can't detect anyhow) from voting?

    Would you disenfranchise 100 legal voters, to prevent a single illegal vote?

    How about 1000?

    How about 10,000?

    Or is the right to vote only sacred, for YOU... and not for anyone else?
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Exaggerate much? $279 (or payments of $49/month): https://www.thegunbox.com/products/gbplus

    that doesn't fit yall's description. someone could steal that box with your gun in it in ZERO seconds. then break it open at their leisure. so, gun stolen, and you send the owner to prison.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    so you're cool with requiring people to spend 10k on a gun safe that meets those standards so they can exercise their 2nd amendment rights.... but a voter ID law is too prohibitive for poor people?
    Your number is out to lunch. Bigly.

    For a small, quick access pistol vault we're talking about $100. For trigger or cable locks you're talking $10-20. For a good quality safe, you're looking at good quality safes with good fire rating and access prevention for less than $1K. Folks seem to have no problem putting up $500-1500 to buy some of those semi-auto, high muzzle energy, large magazine rifles, so that's not an insurmountable cost.

    With rights come responsibilities. Let's not forget that your right to own a firearm is not unlimited.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that doesn't fit yall's description. someone could steal that box with your gun in it in ZERO seconds. then break it open at their leisure. so, gun stolen, and you send the owner to prison.
    My description? Got that wrong.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that doesn't fit yall's description. someone could steal that box with your gun in it in ZERO seconds. then break it open at their leisure. so, gun stolen, and you send the owner to prison.
    A UL-rated gun safe with a TL-15 standard can be had for about $1500 for 18 long guns. Figure that's $85/gun. If you want the more stringent TL-30, you start to get into some real money, but you can have one for about $3K.

    So, you can dispense with the $10K scare tactics and the zero seconds tactic.

    All that goes to show is that's why states need to set standards for storage.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    My description? Got that wrong.


    with all the requirements everyone is throwing around you guys are not on the same page. one says can't be a glass front case, another says can be a biolock box.... well, one of you won't be happy with those rules. a biolock box is just as worthless as a glass faced cabinet to thieves.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .


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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    with all the requirements everyone is throwing around you guys are not on the same page. one says can't be a glass front case, another says can be a biolock box.... well, one of you won't be happy with those rules. a biolock box is just as worthless as a glass faced cabinet to thieves.
    Why are you worried about thieves? You have guns - just shoot 'em.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .


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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    So?
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    So?


    well twodot wants there to be a minimum time to be able to break in so that it meets his requirements. that's where the 10k comes from bc that's more like what you'll spend to get a safe that will hold out to thieves for that long.

    where as i think making someone keep their guns from being STOLEN is an absurd requirement.

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well twodot wants there to be a minimum time to be able to break in so that it meets his requirements. that's where the 10k comes from bc that's more like what you'll spend to get a safe that will hold out to thieves for that long.

    where as i think making someone keep their guns from being STOLEN is an absurd requirement.
    Well, I agree with twodot.

    No, it certainly isn't an absurd requirement. It's one of the points where guns likely get out of controlled circulation and become a danger to the general public.

    You do realize that you're basically making the argument that you WANT the $10K safe to be the standard.

    There are standards for safes. They're established by UL. They include both fire rating times and access rating times. Access ratings are in increments of 15 minutes (TL-15 and TL-30) They may include tool resistance (TL), torch resistance (TR), tool and torch resistance (TLTR) and multi panel rating (X6 for 6 sides).

    Standardization is great, ain't it?
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Well, I agree with twodot.

    No, it certainly isn't an absurd requirement. It's one of the points where guns likely get out of controlled circulation and become a danger to the general public.

    You do realize that you're basically making the argument that you WANT the $10K safe to be the standard.

    There are standards for safes. They're established by UL. They include both fire rating times and access rating times. Access ratings are in increments of 15 minutes (TL-15 and TL-30) They may include tool resistance (TL), torch resistance (TR), tool and torch resistance (TLTR) and multi panel rating (X6 for 6 sides).

    Standardization is great, ain't it?

    and if you WANT your guns protected from theft with those levels of protection, fine. but criminalizing someone that has done nothing b/c an ACTUAL criminal stole from them... just stupid

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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    and if you WANT your guns protected from theft with those levels of protection, fine. but criminalizing someone that has done nothing b/c an ACTUAL criminal stole from them... just stupid
    If you put in a safe that meets state standards - let's say we're talking about a TL-15 rated safe and somebody steals your stuff, your butt should be covered from legal ramifications.

    Put in one of those crappy sheet-metal cabinet safes that doesn't meet the standards? Pay a stiff fine if your stuff is stolen for not meeting the standard.

    Do nothing to secure your firearms and ammunition and your stuff is stolen? Criminal penalty and loss of the right to own firearms - you've shown you are not responsible enough to keep firearms.
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    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    If you put in a safe that meets state standards - let's say we're talking about a TL-15 rated safe and somebody steals your stuff, your butt should be covered from legal ramifications.

    Put in one of those crappy sheet-metal cabinet safes that doesn't meet the standards? Pay a stiff fine if your stuff is stolen for not meeting the standard.

    Do nothing to secure your firearms and ammunition and your stuff is stolen? Criminal penalty and loss of the right to own firearms - you've shown you are not responsible enough to keep firearms.


    no, you've shown you're not wealthy enough.

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    16,211

    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    no, you've shown you're not wealthy enough.
    If you've got the money to buy the guns...
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  35. #105
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    huntsville, al, usa
    Posts
    3,636

    Default Re: Why does the NRA fear a lady from Indiana so much. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    If you've got the money to buy the guns...


    and you have bus fare to get to the polls.

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