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Thread: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

  1. #36
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    Narragansett Bay and Approaches
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    You should scarf clear stock where that knot is. It will be a pretty long strip.
    An easy way to build a bolt rope track is to cut a recess for a piece of plastic pipe.
    you can cut the slot before or after you bond it into place.
    I have had good luck with CPVC water pipe, abrade the crap out of it with a hacksaw blade or coarse rasp, and epoxy holds perfectly well. The PVC is excellent and smooth so bolt ropes slide easily.
    I do reinforce the sail feed with a patch of GRP to make it harder for the bolt rope to jump the groove.
    SHC

  2. #37
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    Oct 2016
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    Saint James, NY
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Since that mast has a very big knot that must be addressed, it might be cheaper to start anew with proper stock and run a correct bolt rope groove before the glue up and shaping of the stick. The existing mast could be scarfed, to eliminate the knot followed by paint or varnish and selling it in that state before any hardware is applied. It could also be sold as is!
    Jay

    Ouch! That's a tough pill to swallow at this stage. In speaking with the owner I think we will go with the scarf/repair approach and see how she looks under sail (e.g. sailing to windward on both tacks). If there's any noticeable bend when looking up the mast from the back or sides then it may well be time to consider other options.

  3. #38
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Quote Originally Posted by SHClark View Post
    You should scarf clear stock where that knot is. It will be a pretty long strip.
    An easy way to build a bolt rope track is to cut a recess for a piece of plastic pipe.
    you can cut the slot before or after you bond it into place.
    I have had good luck with CPVC water pipe, abrade the crap out of it with a hacksaw blade or coarse rasp, and epoxy holds perfectly well. The PVC is excellent and smooth so bolt ropes slide easily.
    I do reinforce the sail feed with a patch of GRP to make it harder for the bolt rope to jump the groove.
    SHC
    That's a pretty novel approach. I assume you are able to find slug slides that fit nicely into...say a standard 1/'2" CPVC pipe?

  4. #39
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    Jan 2004
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    Norwich,United Kingdom
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    6,482

    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ View Post
    That's a pretty novel approach. I assume you are able to find slug slides that fit nicely into...say a standard 1/'2" CPVC pipe?
    Do Pirates use slugs when they are governed by the class rules?

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    Saint James, NY
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    As promised, here are some photos of my progress on dealing with the nasty knot I discovered when making the mast for this Pirate. But before tackling that I thought I would finish the boom to sort of clear my head before getting on to the mast scarf repair.
    Attachment 39637

    IMG_8519.jpg
    With the boom basically done, hardware fitted and ready for finishing I was finally ready to tackle the mast scarf. I first set up a makeshift jig for routing out the 12" flat middle section and then used the same approach for running the opposing tapers. The overall scarf length is 3.0' with 5mm steps at each end. So far so good!
    Question: Looking ahead, would like some input on a good finishing approach for the spars? I was planning on brushing on a thinned coat of West System's 105/207 epoxy/hardener followed by multiple (6 or 7) coats of Petit Captain's Varnish.

    Attachment 39641

    IMG_8528.jpg

    IMG_8537.jpg

    I'll post more photos when the repair is (hopefully) completed.
    Cheers!

  6. #41
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    se pa (Bristol PA)
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    Default

    I would ask if it's going to be out in the sun a lot? if so, I would not use epoxy on spars, even 207 hardener will eventually turn cloudy under varnish. I can't see any reason to use it on spars. But I'm weird that way, much as I know how to use epoxy I look for ways not to 😇

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #42
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    Oct 2016
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    Saint James, NY
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I would ask if it's going to be out in the sun a lot? if so, I would not use epoxy on spars, even 207 hardener will eventually turn cloudy under varnish. I can't see any reason to use it on spars. But I'm weird that way, much as I know how to use epoxy I look for ways not to 

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Interesting point. Thanks for the feedback. Yes, as she will moored for the sailing season the mast will definitely be out in the sun a lot. Have you seen the same results using Mas epoxies? Just asking as Mas does impart an amber tint (unlike 207) when applied. One older gent told me to coat first with linseed oil then varnish.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Germany
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    The wooden mast and boom of my Schwertzugvogel ( quite similar to the Pirat, but a little bit bigger) is just coated with 6 to 8 layers of Epifanes varnish, which is more uv resistant and more flexible than epoxy.


    This mast is out in the sun each year from April to October in southern Germany, and is probably as old as the hull, which was built in 1971.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by tobias; 06-21-2019 at 03:51 AM.

  9. #44
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    Port Townsend WA
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Get rid of those nibbed ends and scarf allowing the new piece to run off to infinity. Much stronger and less apt to separate under load. Be sure the piece you use matches the grain orientation of the original. Use G/flex epoxy!
    Jay

  10. #45
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Thanks Tobias. Your Schwertzugvogel is quite a pretty craft and definitely very similar to the Pirat. I decided I will most likely go with the varnish only approach (7 to 8 layers with the 1st coat thinned around 10% to 15%). I imagine you are familiar with Pirat's since it is still relatively popular in Germany. As near as has been determined, this Pirate was built sometime in the early '50's in Breman, E. Germany (researched from the original builders plate shown below). It took awhile to identify her as they are practically non-existent here in the U.S. (only one other that I know of). How it got here is still a mystery. Can't wait to see how she sails!
    Attachment 39756

  11. #46
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Get rid of those nibbed ends and scarf allowing the new piece to run off to infinity. Much stronger and less apt to separate under load. Be sure the piece you use matches the grain orientation of the original. Use G/flex epoxy!
    Jay
    Too late for that as I finished the scarf yesterday (and I didn't use G/flex). I'll have to pray to the sea gods to spare me from any future grief. Since the piece scarfed in is what had been removed from that section of mast it was tapered it is an exact match to the grain. At least it wasn't three strikes and you're out!!

  12. #47
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Here's the final photos for this repair. Definitely a pita amount of of work for a for a mere 1/2" knot. I am happy with the result though. Now we'll just have to wait and see how it all comes together under sail and beating in a stiff wind!
    IMG_8548.jpg

    IMG_8552.jpg

    IMG_8566.jpg

    IMG_8569.jpg

    IMG_8567.jpg

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    The most important thing is that you are satisfied with the job John ! I think it is a good job you have done.
    Jay

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Tobias,
    Looking more at your Schwertzugvogel it is indeed rigged similar to the Pirat (i.e. fractional rig, two shrouds, no backstay). Perhaps you can help me with a part I'm looking for.
    I can't seem to find a clean mast/jib hound arrangement for the Pirat. The one I was planning on using was too short as I want the mounting/thru-bolt location to be (at a minimum) centered or slightly aft when mounted on the mast. I will also attach the shroud tangs at the same location. The attached photo shows how the present hound arm is too short (I would like it to be by the 2 inch mark). Any ideas from your boat? I could not see your arrangement from the photos you posted. Appreciate any help you could give. Thanks.
    IMG_9526.jpg

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    When no stock fittings can be found to fit a specific need, it is often less work to make it up yourself. This one was first made using a dummy of the mast made up of fir for the bending work prior to the instalation on the actual mast. No welding was necessary. There is a filler block under the retaining strap. The halyard block is shop made as well. Side tang plates are for running back attachment. The job was done for the salvaging of an existing mast that was in bad shape. Light colored wood under side tang is a scarf joint for a new mast head.
    Jay

  16. #51
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    Oct 2011
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    Germany
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    I could not find a decent picture, i just found this one:
    mast2.jpg

    I'll try to take a better one next weekend.

    Regards,
    Tobias

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Thanks Tobias. Certainly not a stock fitting. I'm still searching.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Thanks Jay. Looks pretty substantial for my application but I get your point. Is the metal shown bronze plate? I don't quite understand the side tang arrangement and the attachment point(s). I assume an eye fitting would attach to the thru-bolt between the tang and the formed retaining strap.
    I've been contemplating something similar for the jib/forestay using a stock forestay/shroud tang having 4 mounting holes but I am questioning the shear strength required of the 4 tang attachment screws. I'm guessing that is why you installed a retaining strap over the forestay tang pictured above and carried it around to attach the thru bolt for the side tangs

  19. #54
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    Oct 2011
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    Germany
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    Default Re: Vintage Pirate Restoration - Mast design

    Yes, almost all hardware on my boat looks handmade. The previous owner told me, that the widdow of the owner before him said it was a graduation piece of a master boatbuilder, a "Meisterstück"

    This Sprenger fitting is quite similar to mine:


    https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/p...le-20x10mm.jpg

    https://www.schick-seesack.de/Spreng...Wantenhaengern
    Last edited by tobias; 08-19-2019 at 03:39 PM.

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