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Thread: America's Cup revisited

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb America's Cup revisited

    I preferred the Cup races when it was the big monohulls.

    Those races were beautiful.

    Today with the 'cats' it seems too 'technical'.

    Cynical view is that ultimately it could become a 'yacht' whatever size/# of hulls, operated by remote control by computers. Then it is down to the most developed software (boat design and operation).

    It is however appreciated that the Cup has become a trailblazer on the cutting edge of technology, and if the Cup continues it will continue to be so. C'est la vie.

    Last edited by Rum_Pirate; 05-08-2019 at 10:52 AM.
    I live and drink rum where other people vacation.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    NICE! I'll be watching that at my leisure...but not this morning. Thanks!

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Also watched this one:

    I live and drink rum where other people vacation.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    AC75 Boat concept revealed.



    Will the next cup

    A. have you riveted to your seat watching it ?

    or

    B. will you await the results and highlights?
    I live and drink rum where other people vacation.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I think "A" as much as is reasonable. I'm really curious to see how these canting foils work. I was skeptical of the foil applications on the multi's, but after watching some of the foiling monohull offshore boats I'm warming to the idea. Although the technology will always be too expensive for regular boats (and I'd be leery of having my only ballast in a position to be easily torn off by a random floater) it'll be interesting to watch. I was pleasantly surprised by the fairly nimble handling of the cats. These may be even quicker in pre-start maneuvering. Could be fun to watch!

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    The America's Cup has always been about the cutting edge of sailing. It should remain that. They pioneer new technologies and techniques that slowly trickle down through the racing world and end up improving cruising yachts.

    There are plenty of races and celebrations of "classic" or "traditional" yachts.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I still am of the opinion that a rule of the original deed of race should be maintained: That vessels competing for the America's cup should arrive at the race venue from the nearest port to their team headquarters on their own bottom. In other words, have accommodations for the crew and be capable of a trans-Atlantic passage under their own motivation. Full Stop.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    I still am of the opinion that a rule of the original deed of race should be maintained: That vessels competing for the America's cup should arrive at the race venue from the nearest port to their team headquarters on their own bottom. In other words, have accommodations for the crew and be capable of a trans-Atlantic passage under their own motivation. Full Stop.
    That stipulation handed a huge advantage to those defenders that had to sail all the way from Bristol, or Boston, to Newport.The challengers that had crossed the Atlantic were,of necessity,rather more rugged.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    That stipulation handed a huge advantage to those defenders that had to sail all the way from Bristol, or Boston, to Newport.The challengers that had crossed the Atlantic were,of necessity,rather more rugged.
    An objection that stopped applying after the switch to J boats.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    John, having had this conversation many, many times in the twenty years that I have been visiting the WBF, I truncated the sentiment for this one. I usually go on to say that the rule unfairly penalizes the overseas challenger, so a reasonable compromise would be that each and every vessel - including the defender - must qualify for the America's Cup races by completing an offshore race of at least 500 nautical miles in open ocean conditions. Level the playing field, but ensure that the competing boats will last longer than the match race series, and that the vessels are suitable for other uses after the series is over.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    John, having had this conversation many, many times in the twenty years that I have been visiting the WBF, I truncated the sentiment for this one. I usually go on to say that the rule unfairly penalizes the overseas challenger, so a reasonable compromise would be that each and every vessel - including the defender - must qualify for the America's Cup races by completing an offshore race of at least 500 nautical miles in open ocean conditions. Level the playing field, but ensure that the competing boats will last longer than the match race series, and that the vessels are suitable for other uses after the series is over.
    That's a reasonable rule, but you know, most of the 12 meter boats built for the America's Cup are still sailing, even without any of them having to sail long distances before the Cup races.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I'm with mmd and those who would prefer a race featuring yachts that meet the spirit of the original contest - sailing into the cup-holder's home waters from the challenger's home port and trouncing them or not as the case may be. Just as America did in the first go-round. But... here's the thing. The America's Cup is the *only* sailboat race that reaches an audience beyond a relatively few devotees. It's the sailing equivalent of the Tour de France. The only contest that Joe Punter could even name from the respective sport. As such it's the only one that can realistically lay claim to being the the pinnacle of the sport. The various offshore races are arguably more challenging and do get a certain amount of publicity - usually when something goes wrong - but they happen very far away from any audience. So, much like F1 car racing, which is not even close to being the best example of motorsport but has always been the ultimate in race car tech, I suspect the Cup has to be a showcase for speed and technology over aesthetics. No one is going to watch F1 if the cars have to be driveable on a public road for some distance just as no one wants to watch offshore yachts go head to head in the Cup.

    Ironically, I think the best experience in auto racing right now is in vintage competition. The racing at Goodwood is just riveting for example. Vastly superior to F1, featuring drivers that are every bit as talented. I suspect there are equivalents in sailing. Classic barge racing perhaps. I've seen some videos of great sailing there both in Britain and The Netherlands.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Completely agreed Chris. America's Cup and F1 are about the cutting edge technology, and less about seamanship or drivers talent (which not to say the sailors and F1 drivers aren't talented).

    But it takes a whole other level of skill to drive a '50s era car at Vmax than a modern car with lots of downforce. Similarly, being able to sail a yacht offshore through whatever Neptune throws at you is far more admirable and enviable than being able to nail that Foil to Foil tack in perfect conditions.

    In our age of cameras everywhere, YouTube, and all the other entertainment available, getting people to pay attention is increasingly difficult. If we can pull people in with the AC boats, and then plant the dream of personal yacht ownership and the subsequent adventure, then its a Win for boaters everywhere.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Apologies for being pedantic, but how will Joe Public be lured into boating by looking at race boats that do not look like anything he will ever be able to afford - even in dumbed-down, miniature versions? While I agree that the attraction to sailors and builders of AC boats is the technology, the appeal to Joe Public is the same as the appeal of NASCAR racing - they watch in hopes of seeing a spectacular crash.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I agree with Ben, mostly. And I agree with Michael, mostly. But don't think that Joe Punter is going to get lured into boating at all regardless of the nature of the boats involved. They could be sailing the equivalent of Toyota Camry's out there (carbon fiber, foiling J-24s anyone?) and I doubt there would be the slightest bump in boat sales figures after a Cup. It's not exactly an accessible sport. And maybe people do watch for the crashes. I don't know. I can't watch NASCAR for more than five minutes without falling asleep. But I'm pretty sure that if the America's Cup Committee wants to get TV time they had better be racing something seriously fast, sexy and with some sort of danger factor.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I like the idea of requiring that boats sail to the venue. But they'd still be extreme. Francois Gabart, for one, sailed this beast around the world -- single handed, non-stop.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    A look around his boat.
    don't miss the little navigation icon in the top corner that allows you to look around 360 degrees.

    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I'm with Woxbox and would like to to see Ultim tris racing.The references to 12 metres don't seem to take too much account of the way in which they evolved from fairly rugged cruising boats with racing potential to fairly extreme daysailors with no alternative use feasible,unless rebuilt.For further details those curious need to look at the pre WW2 plans of 12 metres-with accommodation for the owner and friends at one end and the hired hands at the other-and then compare with the alloy skinned and rather bovine boats of the last few AC campaigns.

    I have no expectation that any form of sailing will appeal to the non-sailing public and I know from my own experience that watching monohulls dragging their ballast round a race course is about as appealing as watching paint dry.The more recent boats that can switch to a much faster mode of sailing can keep the interest alive for a bit longer as they are never entirely without a chance until the other boat has crossed the line.If the cost of an America's Cup campaign seems excessive maybe we should have an alternative version in International Canoes.Does anybody believe it wouldn't depend on sailing ability to defeat the opposition?

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I'm with Woxbox and would like to to see Ultim tris racing.The references to 12 metres don't seem to take too much account of the way in which they evolved from fairly rugged cruising boats with racing potential to fairly extreme daysailors with no alternative use feasible,unless rebuilt.For further details those curious need to look at the pre WW2 plans of 12 metres-with accommodation for the owner and friends at one end and the hired hands at the other-and then compare with the alloy skinned and rather bovine boats of the last few AC campaigns.

    I have no expectation that any form of sailing will appeal to the non-sailing public and I know from my own experience that watching monohulls dragging their ballast round a race course is about as appealing as watching paint dry.The more recent boats that can switch to a much faster mode of sailing can keep the interest alive for a bit longer as they are never entirely without a chance until the other boat has crossed the line.If the cost of an America's Cup campaign seems excessive maybe we should have an alternative version in International Canoes.Does anybody believe it wouldn't depend on sailing ability to defeat the opposition?
    12 meters didn't need to be rebuilt, they were plenty strong. All they needed was the installation of cruising accommodations. I don't think they even changed the accommodations on American Eagle before she went ocean racing.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    A part of the AC has always been about the ostentatious display of wealth.
    To win the America's cup has always required lots of money - and that's the point - it's been about rich men winning.

    I'm in favour of the new multihulls. They're exciting and I think it's a very pure form of sailing: where everything is engineered to harvest everything possible from the wind and water. There's nothing extra on the boats, it's just about sailing only.
    I can't see why a bedroom would make it better....?

    And i like the dueling aspect of it - "choose your weapons".
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    A part of the AC has always been about the ostentatious display of wealth.
    To win the America's cup has always required lots of money - and that's the point - it's been about rich men winning.

    I'm in favour of the new multihulls. They're exciting and I think it's a very pure form of sailing: where everything is engineered to harvest everything possible from the wind and water. There's nothing extra on the boats, it's just about sailing only.
    I can't see why a bedroom would make it better....?

    And i like the dueling aspect of it - "choose your weapons".
    Isn't the next race in foiling monohulls?

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Isn't the next race in foiling monohulls?
    Yes - i think so.
    Substitute 'multihulls' for 'high performance' or some such words.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    The best moment in America cup history. Australian prime minister at the time.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s8mdHO2_Zo8

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    How would you feel if you donated something as a perpetual in honor of someone or something, and the stipulations you wrote in the deed of gifts were thrown out and completely ignored sometime after your death. This was your trophy. You donated it with no compensation. The only thing you got out of it was the knowledge that after you're gone, your gift will continue on.

    I wouldn't like it much.

    I wonder how George Schuyler feels.

    Should that make a difference in how we handle the perpetual?

    I think it should. I'm not saying that the stipulations should be written in stone, but changes should preserve the original intent of the deed of gifts. I have nothing against the current crop of AC boats. They are fast, exciting, and fun to watch; but this is not the America's Cup envisioned by Mr. Schuyler.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Ok, but to be fair there are lots of things about the world we live in now that are not as they were envisioned back in 1851. TV revenue for one thing. Just saying that Mr. Schuyler might prefer that his cup retain its stature in the sport more than its adherence to the original rules. We can’t know either way.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ok, but to be fair there are lots of things about the world we live in now that are not as they were envisioned back in 1851. TV revenue for one thing. Just saying that Mr. Schuyler might prefer that his cup retain its stature in the sport more than its adherence to the original rules. We can’t know either way.
    You're exactly right. I tried to pose the question of his feelings without putting the words into his mouth, while putting the words into MY mouth. It's been years since I read the deed of gifts, but when I read it last; my reaction was that if this is what I wanted, I'd be pissed about what it has become.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    You're exactly right. I tried to pose the question of his feelings without putting the words into his mouth, while putting the words into MY mouth. It's been years since I read the deed of gifts, but when I read it last; my reaction was that if this is what I wanted, I'd be pissed about what it has become.
    I am not even remotely knowledgeable about the history of the AC other than the high points, but in reading a bit about it while posting on this thread I did find that the deed of gift had been amended at least once during Schuyler's lifetime. So it's not impossible that he would have been ok with changes given the context. But if we are talking about our own feelings on the subject, I'm in agreement that what it has become is not what was implied by the original intent, nor what I would most like to see. Bring back the J boats I say!

    ETA: How about foiling J-boats? Now that is something I would pay money to see.
    Last edited by cstevens; 05-10-2019 at 01:22 PM.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    There already is an international competition for match-racing development-class catamaran sailing boats. Why morph a long-standing race series for monohulls into a race for multihulls and vie for the same audience as exists for the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Why morph a long-standing race series for monohulls into a race for multihulls and vie for the same audience as exists for the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy?
    Stupidity and ego. Reminds me of the situation with CART. There was indy racing and there was Formula 1 but CART decided it was going to be both !

    Now there is no CART.

    People keep talking about "excite the public !" because they are not clear thinkers. 95% of the public doesn't give a rat's behind about sailboat racing -- and they are not going to. Unless you already like it, it is not exciting or even interesting. "Oh goody, sailboat races. Are there bowling reruns on 5, Gertrude ? Hit the button ... "

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    12 meters didn't need to be rebuilt, they were plenty strong. All they needed was the installation of cruising accommodations. I don't think they even changed the accommodations on American Eagle before she went ocean racing.
    The rebuilding to which I referred would be necessary to add accommodation as the later daysailors didn't have any.The structure of the boats would have been entirely adequate as the Class rules stipulate that the boats are to be built to Lloyds standards.

    I totally agree with Favorite's remarks about the appeal of sailboat racing to the general public.There isn't much chance of crash and bang type incidents and the action,if there is any,occurs at a glacial rate.With foilers there is always the possibility that one boat might cease to fly or the other might manage to achieve lift off and consequently the race retains the interest until a winner has emerged.It also moves the contest away from being a contest dominated by flinging boats around to disadvantage the opposition and gives greater emphasis to developing faster boats which was the original purpose of match racing.

    What would mmd have to say about a switch to Open60's?

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Open60's aren't much of a tacking boat, but sure. Qualify them in the Fastnet, or Marblehead to Halifax race, and have at it.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    The rebuilding to which I referred would be necessary to add accommodation as the later daysailors didn't have any.The structure of the boats would have been entirely adequate as the Class rules stipulate that the boats are to be built to Lloyds standards.

    I totally agree with Favorite's remarks about the appeal of sailboat racing to the general public.There isn't much chance of crash and bang type incidents and the action,if there is any,occurs at a glacial rate.With foilers there is always the possibility that one boat might cease to fly or the other might manage to achieve lift off and consequently the race retains the interest until a winner has emerged.It also moves the contest away from being a contest dominated by flinging boats around to disadvantage the opposition and gives greater emphasis to developing faster boats which was the original purpose of match racing.

    What would mmd have to say about a switch to Open60's?
    The 12s were always inshore racing boats, and the fact that they didn't need to be rebuilt in order to be converted to cruising is part of why they had such appeal in the post-war world. Open 60s are not inshore racing boats, so they would undergo a much greater transformation than the 12s did if you used them in the Cup races.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    When I entered business school in the early eighties, our accounting professor, having memorized each student's name and something about them for our first class, asked me which country I thought was going to win The Ameria's Cup. I had a feeling that Australia would end up being a strong challenger, compete against the US boat and perhaps win. When they did the professor reminded me of my 'prediction'. I was surprised he remembered it as a prediction, since it was merely a wild-ass guess on my part.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    I grew up in inland Australia. Never even seen a sailboat, let alone heard of the Americas cup. Pretty much the whole country got up at 4am to watch that race. We all became overnight experts on winged keels too.
    It was a fun and simpler time.

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    Default Re: America's Cup revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    There isn't much chance of crash and bang type incidents and the action,if there is any,occurs at a glacial rate.With foilers there is always the possibility that one boat might cease to fly or the other might manage to achieve lift off and consequently the race retains the interest until a winner has emerged.
    But I don't think the general public will ever be interested (unless it's a national pride type thing, as happened with the first aussie win.) They shouldn't butcher sailboat racing in a vain attempt to "generate public excitement !" It's not going to. It appeals to a certain group of people. Face facts and please those people.

    Or ... put cannons on board and use the rules of 1812. That would generate public excitement ! But if you think football injuries are bad, cannons on wooden ships are a hundred times worse

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