Adventures of 'yeswhen', a boat with a lot of questions

[Phil Y]

Bits of stuff.


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[Phil Y]

The bottom right looks like a spent anode. The top ones some sort of spacer to deal with a bolt that was too long. The bit of cut off water pipe, who knows but not worth keeping.

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[RFNK]

Cool, thx for the tips, we'll start contemplating options soon.

Gypsie, what system do you have on your kero stove? How would you normally build the pressure? On ours is with a bicycle-type pump and valve, and so far the best way that I found to get the pressure of is to unscrew a little the 'pipe' from the pump and let it release slowly.

I've tried with the back of a spoon once and the two fingers I was holding it with smelt like kero for quite some hours.


Just opened another of the surprise lockers, this time a tiny one in the center of the saloon, and amongst a universe of elastics I also found this.

Can anyone shine some light and tell us what they are?




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The stuff in the plastic bag looks like stern gland packing. The bits of pipe look like they have the same packing in them, as if you can `pre-pack' the core of a stuffing box. I really don't know how that would work and it's probably not what they're for but it looks like it's something like that. When your boat's out of the water, it would be a good idea to dismasntle the stuffing box to see how it is and how it works.

Rick

[Phil Y]

Rick maybe right, he often is. Are they just 2 coils of packing? I thought they were a bit of aluminium tube. And I thought the ropey stuff was a door seal for a wood stove. It's that time of year. Haha.

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[RFNK]

My guess is that it is gland packing and that they are bits of aluminium tube used to store the packing.

Rick

[wizbang 13]

I think the way to release stove pressure is to crack the filler cap.
Mineral Spirits, what we call paint thinner, is a superior alternative to kerosene in kerosene stoves.
Kero stinks up a cabin, whether being burned or not, especially old kero. Gaach
It will require less alcohol to light, will not soot up the overhead or cookware, and always burn blue, not yellow.
( I’m going on 45 years of Primus kero burners).

[gypsie]

Gypsie, what system do you have on your kero stove? How would you normally build the pressure? On ours is with a bicycle-type pump and valve, and so far the best way that I found to get the pressure of is to unscrew a little the 'pipe' from the pump and let it release slowly.

I don't have a pressure release system, other than to undo the filling cap for the tank. But now that you mention it, it would be very easy to rig.

I have the original bronze pump. Beautiful but very painful to use - sorry i don't have a picture, i must take one. It builds up pressure very slowly with a lot of effort, and you need to keep it up while the stove is in use. So much effort it was never used in favour of the handy little $20 picnic gas burner.
I'll keep the pump in place, operable, for heritage and emergency reasons. The line (6mmOD) from it to the tank i've broken with a push in 'T' connector and inserted the 12v compressor there. (Another 'T' somewhere on that line, with a ball valve, would allow for easy depressurisation).

[brucemoffatt]

I think the way to release stove pressure is to crack the filler cap.
Mineral Spirits, what we call paint thinner, is a superior alternative to kerosene in kerosene stoves.
Kero stinks up a cabin, whether being burned or not, especially old kero. Gaach
It will require less alcohol to light, will not soot up the overhead or cookware, and always burn blue, not yellow.
( I’m going on 45 years of Primus kero burners).

I'd be a bit careful of what you use in the stove instead of kerosene. There have been problems including regular explosions in Aus, some fatal, by people thinking they had a superior kero substitute for a Primus stove, and using the wrong one, assuming a similar product off a shelf overseas would be identical. Off the Bunnings shelf paint thinner is likely to be 50% "white spirit"/naphtha/parrafin and 50% toluene. See the MSDS regarding reproductive system damage.


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[wizbang 13]

I did not say to use tolulene or naphtha. I said paint thinner .
45 years Bruce. Not blown up yet. Nor does my cabin stink of kero.

[brucemoffatt]

I did not say to use tolulene or naphtha. I said paint thinner .
45 years Bruce. Not blown up yet. Nor does my cabin stink of kero.

I admire your longevity.

I think you misunderstand my reply. You said thinners. Thinners here off the shelf = 50% naphtha 50% toluene. That's the bog standard formula here. That's my point. People have exploded kero stoves here by taking advice like that without knowledge of the local product.

I repeat my advice - I suggest not using alternative kero stove fuel on advice clearly made without local knowledge. Look, this isn't the same as a difference in perception of rust stains on a stem. A volatile gas build up above a fairly stable fuel like kero can get to an explosive ignition temperature with fatal results. I suggest you seriously consider editing your posts.

In the meantime I'll call Jorge in the morning.


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[wizbang 13]

Mineral spirits.
I used it in Alladin lamps and hurricane lamps for a long time as well. ( gone to led of course).

[brucemoffatt]

Mineral spirits.
I used it in Alladin lamps and hurricane lamps for a long time as well. ( gone to led of course).

Yes. Mineral Spirits is your local product. We call it White Spirits here by the way. Naming things is such a trick, eh?

You don't live where Jorge is. His local hardware is Bunnings. If he buys a container of Thinners here, it's not what you'd get if you bought Thinners where you are. Do you get my drift?

If he takes your sage and long-tested advice and puts Thinners in his kero stove it won't do what yours does. I'm not saying it will necessarily go bang, I'm saying on face value your advice needs clarifying. To not use a colloquial term like Thinners, which is 50% naphtha and 50% Toluene at Jorge's local hardware store.

And at that I'll leave the thread and for a while at least, the forum. In my opinion the value-add here goes, too often lately, into negative territory.


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[wizbang 13]

Bruce, Your warning to Jorge to be carefull not to get the wrong thing at the store is great.
But it does not negate the fact that these stoves work better with “mineral spirits” than kerosene.
Maybe the contents of a can of kero is different country to country.
We are tapping words, I cannot help if you feel I’ve been negative, I apologize.
bruce

[RFNK]

It is a common problem and in this case a very serious one. Both Bruces mean well here but, as our Bruce has pointed out, products and product names are significantly different in our countries. It would be too easy to create a gas chamber or a bomb on a boat! It's really important to get good local advice when experimenting with fuels and gases.

Rick

[Phil Y]

You say gas. We say petrol. At least that one is easy to sort out. But Bruce's warning is very sound. Burn "thinners" in your Kero stove here and you are dancing with death.

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[gypsie]

I've been doing the Pepsi cola test on warming up the stove.
Metho as per tradition, and a blow torch.

Takes about the same length of time to get it to operating temp.
The metho smokes a lot, especially as it starts to fade.
But having to hold the torch at the burner for two or so minutes is a bit boring.

When the burner gets to a proper heat the kero doesn't smoke or smell. If I could find a neat way of filling the stove without splashing Kero around the place I'd be there.

Ironically the heating of the burner with a blow torch to boil some water, probably takes as long and uses as much gas as using the camp stove to make the cup of tea.....

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[RFNK]

I would use the camping gas canister stove until you can afford a proper LPG installation. Just don't keep many canisters on board as they rust quickly. I'm much too impatient for metho and certainly couldn't be bothered with pre-warming etc. Phil likes metho but I'd never have it again.

Rick

PS You can keep gas canisters in a waterproof container.

[Phil Y]

I don't understand why your metho would smoke. Are you allowing some Kero to come through too early?

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[brucemoffatt]

I don't understand why your metho would smoke. Are you allowing some Kero to come through too early?

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OK, I lied, I didn't go away.

Here's a fun experiment to do in the back yard. Mix metho and kero in a small container away from flammable goods like a boat. Set fire to it and stand back.

Spoiler: the liquids are immiscible and the metho lights, and brings the kero up to ignition temp. Then the kero, which burns hotter than metho, makes the remaining metho boil, sending a very attractive shower of flaming bubbles up above the container. The whole thing then accelerates into a pyrotechnical display. It's then quite difficult to extinguish and as long as it continues to burn, the boat that you didn't light this in is in immediate peril of burning to the waterline.

Why this is important to know: kero stoves rely on a pre-heat mechanism to get the jet hot enough to vaporise the liquid kero (or paraffin or naphtha or toluene mix) as it enters the burner diffuser. Failure to achieve a clean ignition first try can be the first and fatal link in a chain of events.

I use metho stoves on boats. They take longer. That's never been a bad thing.


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[wizbang 13]

What’s “metho”? Is that the stuff Walter White makes?

[brucemoffatt]

What’s “metho”? Is that the stuff Walter White makes?

Not the crystal substance Walter White makes

Denatured Alcohol, Ethanol. It's sold as "Methylated Spirits" or Metho. It has an additive to make it unsuitable to drink (=denatured). For stoves such as the Trangia it is best used 95% ethanol 5% water to avoid a sooty flame. Spills can be a real hazard and the flame can be hard to see clearly. On the plus side it can be extinguished with water as it is water miscible.


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[RFNK]

I didn't know you could put out a metho fire with water. Thanks!

Rick

[WX]

Not the crystal substance Walter White makes

Denatured Alcohol, Ethanol. It's sold as "Methylated Spirits" or Metho. It has an additive to make it unsuitable to drink (=denatured). For stoves such as the Trangia it is best used 95% ethanol 5% water to avoid a sooty flame. Spills can be a real hazard and the flame can be hard to see clearly. On the plus side it can be extinguished with water as it is water miscible.


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I remember being told you could remove the additive by pouring it through a loaf of bread.

[John B]

When your nanna's morris 1100 runs rough because it's accumulated some water in the fuel tank, dump a litre of meths in, it absorbs the water and will go through the carb and be burnt up. If she's traded up to a fuel injected camry, same.

[brucemoffatt]

I remember being told you could remove the additive by pouring it through a loaf of bread.

There were many theories, all of them wrong.


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[RFNK]

When your nanna's morris 1100 runs rough because it's accumulated some water in the fuel tank, dump a litre of meths in, it absorbs the water and will go through the carb and be burnt up. If she's traded up to a fuel injected camry, same.

Floats on fluid!

Rick

[wizbang 13]

What do you call “epoxy” in Austrailia? I might be accidentally recommending to use Elmer’s to stick a boat together.

[epoxyboy]

I spent some time looking for methylated spirits (meths in NZ ) in Victoria BC. Turns out the Canadians called it methyl hydrate. We got there in the end!
I think it's the same as denatured wood alcohol, but I wouldn't risk a stove explosion on "I think".

Pete

[epoxyboy]

When your nanna's morris 1100 runs rough because it's accumulated some water in the fuel tank, dump a litre of meths in, it absorbs the water and will go through the carb and be burnt up. If she's traded up to a fuel injected camry, same.

Or if you have an old Mazda RX3 that some fool has turbo'd, you rig up a pressure switch and pump, to spray a 50/50 mix of water and meths up the intake to suppress rotor tip-seal destroying detonation. Leastways, that's what we did when I was a lad .

Pete

[wizbang 13]

The alcohol duz not go in the tank .
The stuff I use is from French (Caribbean) rum distilleries.
It smells like “rhum agricole”.
Regular strong rum work (150 plus proof)work in a pinch.
So will a dab of “sterno”.

[gypsie]

Here's my set up;

IMG_5772.jpg

Pressure tank and the filler tube sticking up out of it.
The attractive bronze pump which is pitifully slow to use - but looks great.
You can see where I've broken the pressure supply line with a T piece and added the little 12v compressor. In the wings out of shot is a battery and a press and hold switch to operate the compressor.

I've been fiddling with the burners and trying to source parts or new burners with regulators.
Found these guys on ebay, eventually. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111943307663?ul_noapp=true
Changing the jet and needle is tricky without the right tool. Calibration is also tricky, if annoying can be described as tricky.

[wizbang 13]

I lost the special tool long ago, but filed a slot in the end of a 3/8th bolt to fit the jet.
You know the trick of using a pencil with an eraser to lift the pricker out?
That tank, filler and stuff looks way complicated!
i am always on the lookout for Primus /patria burners. I’ll buy any old stove at a marine used gear shop or swap meet just to cannabalize parts,
The burner bodies eventually do pack it in, do not let the smallest amount of sea water water splash around the burners. The body corrodes, leaks , splits and the thing dead.( but grab the parts out of it before binning).
When you shut the burner off be gentle. Cranking it hard off wears out the tip of the spindle tip. Best to shut off “lightly” and release pressure each time. And treat that graphite bushing like un obtainium, which it almost is.

[JorgeR]

Hi all, a bit of quiet time sorting out off boat topics and easing into planning, just for the sake of our own health.

Thanks for all the tips and advices re: patria stoves and fuels to use, ours runs quite good and we had a good lesson the other day when the valve where we blow air in (bycicle valve) was leaking air back. Realised that by letting the pressure out through that valve the little rubber ring that holds it was melting due to the hot air coming back out. We had to pull out one of those things that we did not know whar were they for and sort it out ourselves. Did a bit of research and fixed it succesfully




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[JorgeR]

More things that happenned... I removed all pipes and hoses and pumps and taps and cables and everything that was attached to the hot water heater / calorifier, and at the same time I changed the coolant since it was running through the calorifier too. A bag of aprox 20kg is what came out of all that. Now there's no loose pipes full of cold and hot fresh water, as well as coolant, lingering around, and way more easier space to work about.

Changing the impellers and setting a new strainer was another interesting job, as the impeller was different than the one I got as a replacement and it did not want to come off. Eventually it did and we're all happy squirting tones of salt water off the exhaust pipe. The anode from the engine was completely worn so I also replaced that, with the pending job of cleaning the heat exhanger. At this stage, jobs enginewise are changing oil, oil filter, fuel filter and improving the fuel line towards the day tank since there's a tiny diesel leak that makes things dirty down the bilge. I'll put a tap to close the whole circuit without affecting the day tank that feeds the engine by gravity.

Little question here. When I researched about strainers, they say to mount them just above waterline. I did, and it seems ok, but the strainer (bowl/cup shape) gets only about 1 inch of visible water when the engine is running. Dunno if I explain myself, and right now I can only post a pic of the strainer itself as is mounted without the engine running:




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[JorgeR]

And finnally, a couple of the promised pictures of the interior. Everything turns into such a mess every day that by the time I want to shoot some it's almost not possible to walk through.

We've started getting into the scary outside timber/deck jobs since the other dat it rained heavily and there was drips from the homemade liferaft cradle attachement. I've also got myself into lifting up an inspection plate in the bow that turned up to be rotten, so more uknown things on our way! Will be posting them on the repair forum soon.

Thanks again for all feedback, and we'll keep you posted with directions. We might stay here for a bit longer and contemplate further options without a massive rush.

Cheers!










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