Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 37

Thread: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Blacksburg, VA
    Posts
    416

    Default Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    I'm thinking building a dinghy rig similar to the one by Kristopher that Thorne posted on the "Question Re: Gunter Rig" thread.



    The lower part of the luff is not attached to the mast, so it depends entirely on luff tension for support. Two questions:

    1. Would I need a downhaul on the boom to get enough tension on the luff, or could I get the necessary tension from the halyard alone?

    2. Could this work with a used bermudian sail? The tension would be running across the seams of a crosscut sail, and the whole cut of the sail might be wrong. I figure I would need a stiffer yard than the one shown in the photo, which looks a lot more bendy than a bermudian mast.

    Please try to keep the focus on the answers to these questions and avoid thread drift into a general discussion of the virtues (and definitions) of gunter and Solent lug rigs.
    I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen very nicely and then go out and do exactly what I want! (Apologies to Lerner and Lowe.)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    967

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Why not put a laceing on the lower part of the luff to the mast? It does not impede the lowering or raising of the sail and would avoid a tackle for downhaul
    While that luff looks to be straight, mine has a slight angle at the yard, so a used bermudan might not work without recutting.
    My boom is attached to the mast by a goose neck, so tension is only by halyard and works fine. A lug has a much longer unsupported luff so needs a lot of tension to work.
    A2

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,428

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    I've done this and it works fine. On a sail that small, halyard tension is adequate for casual sailing. But if you can't stand the sight of a small wrinkle, then you'll want a downhaul. The lack of lacing low down isn't an issue if everything else is tensioned up properly. I think gunters have a lot of advantages that aren't fully appreciated. Especially in small boats where pragmatic considerations override the need to maximize efficiency for racing. On the boat pictured, the spars will fit inside the boat when the rig is struck, and on any gunter rig with reefing, when reefed the mast height is reduced.
    -Dave

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by alkorn View Post
    I'm thinking building a dinghy rig similar to the one by Kristopher that Thorne posted on the "Question Re: Gunter Rig" thread.



    The lower part of the luff is not attached to the mast, so it depends entirely on luff tension for support. Two questions:

    1. Would I need a downhaul on the boom to get enough tension on the luff, or could I get the necessary tension from the halyard alone?

    2. Could this work with a used bermudian sail? The tension would be running across the seams of a crosscut sail, and the whole cut of the sail might be wrong. I figure I would need a stiffer yard than the one shown in the photo, which looks a lot more bendy than a bermudian mast.

    Please try to keep the focus on the answers to these questions and avoid thread drift into a general discussion of the virtues (and definitions) of gunter and Solent lug rigs.
    Lacing is not necessary.
    The luff on a bermudian sail is too straight so it will not work due to the amount that the gaff yard "sags off". You would need to re-cut the luff, taking a bit off the length of the foot.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,776

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I've done this and it works fine. On a sail that small, halyard tension is adequate for casual sailing. But if you can't stand the sight of a small wrinkle, then you'll want a downhaul. The lack of lacing low down isn't an issue if everything else is tensioned up properly. I think gunters have a lot of advantages that aren't fully appreciated. Especially in small boats where pragmatic considerations override the need to maximize efficiency for racing. On the boat pictured, the spars will fit inside the boat when the rig is struck, and on any gunter rig with reefing, when reefed the mast height is reduced.
    Great input, thank you.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,428

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Nick is right, of course. The yard must be rigged so that it holds parallel to the mast. In my case, the mast was aluminum so I used the sail track slot to attach a yard that telescoped straight up and down.
    -Dave

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Nick is right, of course. The yard must be rigged so that it holds parallel to the mast. In my case, the mast was aluminum so I used the sail track slot to attach a yard that telescoped straight up and down.
    That is effectively the archaic sliding gunter made modern.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    SEATTLE, WA
    Posts
    288

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    I made a very similar sliding gunter or whatever you want to call it on Helium. My experience is that a downhaul makes it a lot easier to control luff tension. Originally I had ties to the mast and found them a PITA and in any case with the downhaul relatively tight there was no difference in performance that I could see. The only concern I would have is using a Bermuda is that the gunter is cut flat and the offset angled yard creates the draft in the sail, so you might end up with too much draft.

    For some reason I can't link a photo of the sail, but the URL of the Helium website is below.
    Alan
    https://sites.google.com/site/helium12sofsailboat/


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    871

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by alkorn View Post
    I'm thinking building a dinghy rig similar to the one by Kristopher that Thorne posted on the "Question Re: Gunter Rig" thread.



    The lower part of the luff is not attached to the mast, so it depends entirely on luff tension for support. Two questions:

    1. Would I need a downhaul on the boom to get enough tension on the luff, or could I get the necessary tension from the halyard alone?

    2. Could this work with a used bermudian sail? The tension would be running across the seams of a crosscut sail, and the whole cut of the sail might be wrong. I figure I would need a stiffer yard than the one shown in the photo, which looks a lot more bendy than a bermudian mast.

    Please try to keep the focus on the answers to these questions and avoid thread drift into a general discussion of the virtues (and definitions) of gunter and Solent lug rigs.
    ad 1: You can try it out. easy
    ad 2: Nowadays we see the luff and yard of a Drascombe Lugger mainsail as the luff of a bermuda sail when designing it. Much better result then when trying to get in an angle at the underside of the yard, that often did not work because fittings on the yard often spoiled a good set of the sail.
    So it should work. Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by alkorn View Post
    I'm thinking building a dinghy rig similar to the one by Kristopher that Thorne posted on the "Question Re: Gunter Rig" thread.



    The lower part of the luff is not attached to the mast, so it depends entirely on luff tension for support. Two questions:

    1. Would I need a downhaul on the boom to get enough tension on the luff, or could I get the necessary tension from the halyard alone?

    2. Could this work with a used bermudian sail? The tension would be running across the seams of a crosscut sail, and the whole cut of the sail might be wrong. I figure I would need a stiffer yard than the one shown in the photo, which looks a lot more bendy than a bermudian mast.

    Please try to keep the focus on the answers to these questions and avoid thread drift into a general discussion of the virtues (and definitions) of gunter and Solent lug rigs.
    None of this seems to be about the Solent rig, where the heel of the yard is forward of the mast.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Blacksburg, VA
    Posts
    416

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Thanks for all the great input so far.

    Regarding the Solent lug vs gunter issue: it seems to me that the the rig shown in the picture works like a Solent lug once it is hoisted if you put enough tension on the luff. The jaws serve two purposes: the make the sail much easier to raise and lower, and the allow the halyard attachment to be below the midpoint of the yard. The pure Solent lug has no jaws, so it relies on gravity to keep the yard vertical before luff tension is applied. The heel of the yard is aft of the mast once there is tension on the luff.

    Regarding the lacing to the mast: various threads have had comments about how hard it is to properly cut and adjust a gunter sail because of the jog at the heel of the yard. Keeping the lower luff in place with tension only makes the sail cutting simpler. Also, there are many used bermudian sails available, while there are essentially no used gunter-cut sails on the market.

    Regarding the shape of the luff:
    the sail in the picture has a good bit of luff curvature, but this is because of the bend in the yard. If the yard were stiffer the luff would be straighter. If the mast were vertical then combining it with a stiff yard would put the luff in the same position as with a raked bermudian mast.

    Something that hasn't yet received any feedback is the question of doing this with a crosscut sail. Will the seams take the luff tension?
    I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen very nicely and then go out and do exactly what I want! (Apologies to Lerner and Lowe.)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,428

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Will the seams take the luff tension?
    If the sail is well made and not too old, yes. I recently purchased a 150 sq. ft. balanced lug sail for my current project. The sailmaker said he always makes them with horizontal panels, the sail just works better that way in his experience. The luff tension is carried mostly by the luff, after all, which should be well reinforced to take any load the downhaul might create. Many standard sloop rigs these days have multi-part downhauls, cunninghams, etc. capable of putting massive loads on the luff. Good sails are built to handle this.
    -Dave

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Perhaps the meaning of the term has changed. I was trying to envision a bermuda rig sail working with something like this, and it seemed like it would be a problem.



    With a rig like the one you show in the OP, it might be made to work. I think it's Tom Bradshaw who made the comment about the difficulty of cutting gunter sails, and since he's a professional sailmaker I'm sure he has some experience in the matter. I wouldn't worry too much about the gaff flexing, the tops of many small boats are designed for a bendy mast, you just have to make sure the used sail you get matches the stiffness of the spar. A main from a Club 420, for example, is designed for an untapered aluminum mast, so it would probably need a stiffer yard than some other sails. If you're worried about the cost of sails, you might look at the 'practice sails' offered by Intensity Sails. They're cheap and several people have said the are reasonably durable. Sometimes when you buy used sails, it turns out they are near the end of their life.

    If the sail has a bolt rope on the luff, the crosscut sails should be able to deal with the stress. I'm hoping Tom shows up to advise you, he knows more about this than the rest of us.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by alkorn View Post

    Regarding the shape of the luff:
    the sail in the picture has a good bit of luff curvature, but this is because of the bend in the yard. If the yard were stiffer the luff would be straighter. If the mast were vertical then combining it with a stiff yard would put the luff in the same position as with a raked bermudian mast.

    Something that hasn't yet received any feedback is the question of doing this with a crosscut sail. Will the seams take the luff tension?
    No, the issue is that on a bermudan sail the mast is straight. On a gunter sail there is an angle between the mast and yard at the heel of the yard. That requires a curve built into the luff passing through the tack, throat, and peak, which is much more of a curve than that built into a bermudan to provide fullness.

    As to cross cut, as Wobox/Dave said, it will not be an issue as the luff roping should be strong enough to take all of the tension.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    871

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    From '103 small boat rigs', Bolger: Rig 19, Solent Lug...'a true lug with one halyard and no attachments of the luff of the sail to the mast. It differs from other lugs in having the yard slung above its centre of gravity. The yard hangs vertically regardless of tension on the luf of the sail'.. I expect you will not need extra reinforcement then you have allready. I would perhaps sew a patch where the heel of the yard is to take a bigger grommet, and add a few more grommets at the 'head'. Frank

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,062

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Well a 'modern' gunter rig on a new build Lymington Pram used on the Solent...



    1. Cross cut dacron sails..no difference to a standard bermudan. Cloth works both ways. Old school cotton had to be vertical.

    2. I have the luxury of stiff light spars and a stayed rig, so I can get plenty of tension in my rig and sails. I currently only haul the halyard on 1:1 through a sheeve in the mast head. On a 8-9 sqm sail its just about OK. I think I'd prefer to have an easy haul to ensure the yard is vertical and instead tension the boom down with a tackle, which is how I'm planning to change my rigging this summer.

    3. The boat in your picture doesn't have shrouds. Just the halyard acting as a forestay. Such arrangement in 'sail and oar' territory is understandable, but that will limit what tension you can put into the rig - effectively beyond a certain amount you will just start bowing your spars or boat. Your also going to have a floppy mast in moderate wind. So if your looking to get some luff tension you will need to look at how bendy your spars are and/ or consider shrouds etc. You should also take a look at what running rigging you're using. Again my rig and spars are taught and I use a Marlow technora/ polyester coated dyneema with little practical stretch. I pull my halyard (led back) through a Spinlock cleat on the mast that auto locks. On the upside you don't have to pull greater tension to get it to uncleat like a conventional cleat when you want it to let go, but there is a few mm of relaxation of the tension as the cam comes down on it: it's not quite perfect. Putting the boom on a downhaul blocks solves this issue and will give me a fast drop with a flick of the halyard: the halyard just runs out through the Spinlock then. Another reason I'm changing it this summer.

    4. The halyard exits the sheeve then travels through a ring on the yard then down the yard to the heal a bit then an eye splice goes over a hook fitted to the yard. This gives the halyard an upwards vertical pull on the sail luff to tension it better than if it just stops at the yard opposite as it will then just be pulling mainly sideways. If your sail has a reef put a second ring higher up the mast so that when threaded through that ring it keeps the yard close to the mast and vertical when reefed still. You want a kicker obviously to control twist and an outhaul control for camber. If you're buying a narrow boat that rows, a good outhaul can very effectively depower a sail.

    5. On a sail and oar cat gunter bermudan, your other option with the same sail planform is to go for a single long stick and rolling the sail around the mast for reefing and storage like a Topper but you won't fit the spars in the boat, have a short mast for a moored boat or lower spars height when reefed etc. When rolled up in the boat it's a tidy package. I reckon an unstayed Topper rig would make a good sail and oar rig at 60 sqft for a small sail and oar boat that wants to point.

    6. I may next year be tempted by Oughtred and Irens method of holding the yard to the mast. A rope leaves the yard goes around the mast back to the block then down the yard to the base where it cleats off. The gunter then sldes up and down on the halyard. To fold back down when putting the sail away parrallel to the boom you release the cleat at the yard base. Restricting the yard to only vertical possible movement is probably an advantage reefing on the water without having to drop the rig into the boat. I think Romilly's a re rigged this way. You'd need an untapered straight mast for this so the tension in the rope around the mast doesn't change. Gunter's have staright lower masts usually though.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 04-30-2019 at 04:55 AM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,634

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    If the sail is well made and not too old, yes. I recently purchased a 150 sq. ft. balanced lug sail for my current project. The sailmaker said he always makes them with horizontal panels, the sail just works better that way in his experience. The luff tension is carried mostly by the luff, after all, which should be well reinforced to take any load the downhaul might create. Many standard sloop rigs these days have multi-part downhauls, cunninghams, etc. capable of putting massive loads on the luff. Good sails are built to handle this.
    Well said. On small high performance racing cats we often use a 16:1 downhaul system, and sometimes the crew bends their legs while standing on trapeze and then straightens them to exert maximum force on the cross-cut sail - the system bends a wing mast about 9" wide, but the sails don't come apart. Formula windsurfers often have an 8 to 1 purchase feeding into a 20 to 1 (approx) winch; they can exert enough luff tension to snap a $1000 mast but I've never heard of a sail coming apart. Even Lasers now have 8:1 downhauls and we max that out (and bend spars) but not even ancient sails fall apart.
    Last edited by Chris249; 04-30-2019 at 06:55 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    None of this seems to be about the Solent rig, where the heel of the yard is forward of the mast.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the term has changed. I was trying to envision a bermuda rig sail working with something like this, and it seemed like it would be a problem.


    This is the sail that I was referring to on another thread as a gunter lug sail
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    From '103 small boat rigs', Bolger: Rig 19, Solent Lug...'a true lug with one halyard and no attachments of the luff of the sail to the mast. It differs from other lugs in having the yard slung above its centre of gravity. The yard hangs vertically regardless of tension on the luf of the sail'.. I expect you will not need extra reinforcement then you have allready. I would perhaps sew a patch where the heel of the yard is to take a bigger grommet, and add a few more grommets at the 'head'. Frank
    Yes, Bolger did have an odd definition of the Solent rig. I've seen pictures he drew and called a Solent rig, and it looks nothing like the historic ones.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is the sail that I was referring to on another thread as a gunter lug sail
    At the time these boats were racing, it was known as the Solent rig. In any case, Alkorn isn't going to try to use a Bermudian main for this sort of rig, so it's sort of a non-issue.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    At the time these boats were racing, it was known as the Solent rig.
    I think that the Shetland models also used that high peaked lug before they went over to real bermudan. So do you have any references to its use anywhere other than the Solent, and is that the English Solent or a US name for the rig?

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I think that the Shetland models also used that high peaked lug before they went over to real bermudan. So do you have any references to its use anywhere other than the Solent, and is that the English Solent or a US name for the rig?

    I suppose, as a bookseller, I should give you the obscure book reference answer, which is that Linton Hope, in Small Yacht Construction and Rigging, makes distinctions between gunter lugs, Solent lugs, and Clyde lugs. I think there were a lot of high-peaked lugs before the extreme racing versions came along. The gunter lug, which is close to what Bolger calls the Solent rig, seems more practical than the Solent rig described by Hope. It also seems more practical than the sliding gunter, which is the only gunter rig described in my copy of Dixon Kemp's Yacht and Boat Sailing.

    I'm just assuming Hope was using the British term for the rig. He's authoritative, but he's one guy.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,062

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Charles Sibbick was pushing yacht design with higher aspect fin keels and skegs/ rudders with matching higher aspect sails from about 1890 in Cowes. Had a very successfull business untill the rating rules were changed. Most of these raters and half raters, had either a very high peaked standing lug or gunter.





    http://sailcraftblog.wordpress.com/2016/08/23/raters

    Diamond



    Lyme Boat Building School built one strip plank a few years back...

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-01-2019 at 03:38 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I suppose, as a bookseller, I should give you the obscure book reference answer, which is that Linton Hope, in Small Yacht Construction and Rigging, makes distinctions between gunter lugs, Solent lugs, and Clyde lugs. I think there were a lot of high-peaked lugs before the extreme racing versions came along. The gunter lug, which is close to what Bolger calls the Solent rig, seems more practical than the Solent rig described by Hope. It also seems more practical than the sliding gunter, which is the only gunter rig described in my copy of Dixon Kemp's Yacht and Boat Sailing.

    I'm just assuming Hope was using the British term for the rig. He's authoritative, but he's one guy.
    Thanks for that John, you sent me scurrying off to my copy of Dixon Kemp, where I found a 2 1/2 rater sail plan designed by Ratseys and Lapthorn. Leather calls it a standing lug, Kemp does not give it a name. Can you scan any pictures of the rigs Hope mentions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Charles Sibbick was pushing yacht design with higher aspect fin keels and skegs/ rudders with matching higher aspect sails from about 1890 in Cowes. Had a very successfull business untill the rating rules were changed. Most of these raters and half raters, had either a very high peaked standing lug or gunter.





    http://sailcraftblog.wordpress.com/2016/08/23/raters

    Diamond



    Lyme Boat Building School built one strip plank a few years back...

    The Ratseys & Lapthorne rig has a mast traveller and gets the yard nearer to vertical than even that replica.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    2,082

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Nick is right, of course. The yard must be rigged so that it holds parallel to the mast. In my case, the mast was aluminum so I used the sail track slot to attach a yard that telescoped straight up and down.
    --- Did the mast have to rotate with this system? (or, should it rotate?) -- Wade

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    967

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Well a 'modern' gunter rig on a new build Lymington Pram used on the Solent...





    6. I may next year be tempted by Oughtred and Irens method of holding the yard to the mast. A rope leaves the yard goes around the mast back to the block then down the yard to the base where it cleats off. The gunter then sldes up and down on the halyard. To fold back down when putting the sail away parrallel to the boom you release the cleat at the yard base. Restricting the yard to only vertical possible movement is probably an advantage reefing on the water without having to drop the rig into the boat. I think Romilly's a re rigged this way. You'd need an untapered straight mast for this so the tension in the rope around the mast doesn't change. Gunter's have staright lower masts usually though.
    That is the system I use and it works well for reefing single handed. I think I might have got the first set of plans for the Whilley Tern, as I actually asked for the Whilley Boat. But very happy with the result.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Thanks for that John, you sent me scurrying off to my copy of Dixon Kemp, where I found a 2 1/2 rater sail plan designed by Ratseys and Lapthorn. Leather calls it a standing lug, Kemp does not give it a name. Can you scan any pictures of the rigs Hope mentions?


    The Ratseys & Lapthorne rig has a mast traveller and gets the yard nearer to vertical than even that replica.
    I'm working with a PDF here, but Hope provided a pictorial depiction of the evolution of the rigs used in yachts of his time. Here's a screen shot:

    Linton Hope evolution of the gunter lug.jpg

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I'm working with a PDF here, but Hope provided a pictorial depiction of the evolution of the rigs used in yachts of his time. Here's a screen shot:

    Linton Hope evolution of the gunter lug.jpg
    Thanks, interesting.
    Can you tell from the original whether no 4 "Gunter lug" has gaff jaws on the yard? Does Hope discuss the difference between 3 "Solent lug" and 4 "Gunter lug" in the text?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Thanks, interesting.
    Can you tell from the original whether no 4 "Gunter lug" has gaff jaws on the yard? Does Hope discuss the difference between 3 "Solent lug" and 4 "Gunter lug" in the text?
    The ink clogs as you enlarge, but if you follow the link I provided in #22, you can read the text. He said that the 'gunter lug' evolved from the old sliding gunter combined with the Solent lug by adding jaws. He says that the lug and gaff rigs evolved into essentially the same rig with different halyard arrangements.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The ink clogs as you enlarge, but if you follow the link I provided in #22, you can read the text. He said that the 'gunter lug' evolved from the old sliding gunter combined with the Solent lug by adding jaws. He says that the lug and gaff rigs evolved into essentially the same rig with different halyard arrangements.
    OK, I had not realised that I could read the text, it looked more like a book listing for sale on Amazon. So it looks as though Hopes gunter lug is not a lug at all, but just the modern gunter rig.
    It looks as though the Shetland racing boats effectively created a "Solent lug" all by themselves before they went over to bermudian rigs.
    Peerie Maa had a gunter cobbled together from what I think was a standing or Solent type lug mast and yard, fitted with a spinnaker pole sliding goosneck and track screwed to the mast to create a gunter rig. I want to build a new sail copying the original cotton sail but set as a lug rather than a gunter. It looks as though the Solent lug is the way forward.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    OK, I had not realised that I could read the text, it looked more like a book listing for sale on Amazon. So it looks as though Hopes gunter lug is not a lug at all, but just the modern gunter rig.
    It looks as though the Shetland racing boats effectively created a "Solent lug" all by themselves before they went over to bermudian rigs.
    Peerie Maa had a gunter cobbled together from what I think was a standing or Solent type lug mast and yard, fitted with a spinnaker pole sliding goosneck and track screwed to the mast to create a gunter rig. I want to build a new sail copying the original cotton sail but set as a lug rather than a gunter. It looks as though the Solent lug is the way forward.
    You can actually download the book as a PDF.

    I think within Hope's lifetime, the gunter name had applied at first only to a rig with gunter irons such as the rig illustrated by Kemp.

    Wouldn't a Clyde lug be closer to the original rig for Peerie Maa?

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    20,563

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post



    Tom Bradshaw .
    Todd

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    23,191

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    I have done this, and it works just fine. It seems best with a tack and a half-round patch here where marked, and the luff tension set up on the yard itself, then the lower part tension is set up with the downhaul. (A "crane" at the head of the yard in line with the tack (on the yard) maintains a straight line on the luff. And robands, not lacing.

    IMG_4746.jpg

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    25,657

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Todd
    Facepalm

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    44,663

    Default Re: Bermudian sail as Solent lug / Folding gunter

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post

    Wouldn't a Clyde lug be closer to the original rig for Peerie Maa?
    The rig evolved. The working boats started out with a square sail on a mast stepped amidships. Then after the young men learned to sail in the merchant marine, came home and taught the older men how to tack efficiently they cut the square sail with a peak like a dipping lug, but still rigged it like the old square sail with shrouds.
    When the boats were too tired and worn to go offshore to the fishing they were used to transport stuff around the islands and for ease of use the mast was shifted forward and they were rigged as a standing lug sloop.
    This lead to two racing classes, square sail and sloop rigs, both still sailed today. The standing lug was cut with the yard steeved further up with time, passing the form of the Clyde lug and ending up like the Solent lug. Some fitted gaff jaws, others did not. Then someone put a Flying Fifteen mast and mainsail in one of the smaller boats, and everyone went over to bermudian.
    I want a lug as it is so hard to keep the yard at a constant angle with three depths of reef on a gunter.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •