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Thread: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

  1. #1
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    Default Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Imagine - a modern design with chainplates moved well in, the chainplates going through the deck, close to the cabin side but not directly at the cabin side. Imagine - the deck not being supported in this area from below for reasons the designer knows (he will have had good reasons), so, some relative movement possible between the chainplate and the deck at this joint. The former owner of our boat has tried the usual list of sealants here over the years, but non has worked permanently, I believe due to the possible relative movement between deck and chainplate when the boat / the rigg works.

    Now the question: What will work to keep this joint sealed permanently or at least for a few years? Is there a traditional approach like felt and grease? Microcellular rubber? ???

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Many questions. Little data. I'm not sure some photos would help but perhaps. And usage? A racer? Mast deck or keel stepped?

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Sorry, no pictures at the moment. The mast is deck stepped with a good support post to the keel, the boat is more cruiser than racer but could be regarded as a cruiser racer. The chainplate is a piece of flat stainless steel attached to the hull side through a local plywood frame - all in good order. There is a rectangular cut out in the deck and a stainless facing plate on the deck which also has a rectangular cut out. When the boat is working very hard, I would guess the relativ movement between deck and chainplate in the horizontal plane can be say +/- 0,5 mm and in the vertical direction, I would guess +/- 1 ... 1,5 mm. The structure of the boat is sound. The chainplate area was changed on later builds, although I do not have any information how it was changed. I am not looking at major design modifications - I want to seal the current design. And I am sure that there is a trick, because this sort of design is not uncommon (and trouble arrising from it is discussed widely) - but it was used widely at some time, so, there must be a way to get it to work (at least for a few years between servicing).
    Last edited by Henning 4148; 04-19-2019 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    How about a rubber mast boot clamped to the deck by the rectangular plate and then lashed around the chain plate on a bed of goop.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    A rubber boot of some sort was my thought as well.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Yea, a boot seems to me to be the best, but all will need re-doing after awhile.
    You don't say, but is there a flange (bonnet in this image) around the chainplate?...


    This arrangement gives twice the leak prevention.
    Better still would be, if possible, to weld the chainplate to the flange where it shows butyl mastic to eliminate one entry point.
    My 2 cents, anyway.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    1.5mm is quite a bit of movement. My boat has a similar arrangement (tang for the chainplate coming through the deck) - but no way does it move that much. The former owner had simply epoxied the gap - but that didn't work. I added bronze covers & used devil's spawn (aka 5200) to seal it. They've been fine for years now.

    I'm not sure I understand how 0.5mm side to side & 1.5mm vertically is OK. To me, the hull & deck should be solid enough to where there is close to no movement - particularly the vertical. Have you discovered why you have so much?

    If the movement can't be fixed, I think a boot of some sort would be the only way to make it work.

    ETA: the drawing Jackster posted above is what I put on my boat. I hadn't heard the term "bonnet" - but it makes sense.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by jackster View Post
    Yea, a boot seems to me to be the best, but all will need re-doing after awhile.
    You don't say, but is there a flange (bonnet in this image) around the chainplate?...


    This arrangement gives twice the leak prevention.
    Better still would be, if possible, to weld the chainplate to the flange where it shows butyl mastic to eliminate one entry point.
    My 2 cents, anyway.
    Been there, tried that, still leaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henning 4148 View Post
    There is a rectangular cut out in the deck and a stainless facing plate on the deck which also has a rectangular cut out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Vote three for a boot.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    I suspect that a boot would be appreciably easier to make watertight if the chainplate were round instead of rectangular. So, is there anyway to make that happen?

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    If your chainplates are moving a lot, there is a problem with structure that should be addressed. Ring frames, chainplate strap extension with a strapping connection under the mast step, and a compression bar attached to both the mast step and partner beam above are a few of the things that can be done to discourage movement of the chainplates. The traditional way many builders use to seal the area is to drive cedar wedges around the piercing though the covering boards. Today, we have G/flex epoxy glue that will add to the sealing of those areas.
    Jay

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    I'm with Jay that the movement needs to be better understood.

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    I have that arrangement on my boat. No noticeable movement but everything moves a little. And nothing really sticks to stainless. As built the ply deck was very neatly fitted around the chain plates. Lovely carpentry. But that's where some of my worst rot was. I've replaced the deck and am about to seal the shroud plate penetrations.

    I've left a large gap between the plate and the surrounding deck, maybe as much as 1cm. Partly out of necessity, due to the angle of the plates and nearby structures like cabins. Partly because I'm not a great carpenter. But mainly because I think flexible goop needs some thickness in order to do its thing.

    If you go with a tight fit between deck and shroud plate as illustrated in one of the posts above, a small chamfer around the hole in the cover plate is important to form a bit of an O ring. One way or another you need to reduce the ratio of flex to thickness of goop.

    Where I've done a temporary repair in the past by cutting a decent sized gap around the shroud plate it's been successful. That's the other reason I'm going this way.

    I'm putting a deck plate over and under the deck to sandwich and compress the goop, like a big O ring.

    I haven't had a lot of luck with any flavour of goop in a tube. I'm going to try butyl tape squished in. Butyl mastic in a tube would be my second choice. It's supposed to stay soft forever, but in South Australia we have a very hot very dry climate and here it does seem to dry out.

    The pictured deck plate is a template made of cheap MDF. The final will be Tuffnol. 8mm above deck and 5mm below deck.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    1 to 1.5 mm up and down movement of the shroudplate relative to the deck is a heck of a lot of movement – basically on a well structured shroudplate/knee arrangement there should be no perceptible movement. I assume the deck and hull are bonded/fastened to the shroudplate knee (that would be normal practice), so something that shouldn't be giving is in fact giving - which is difficult to imagine if the knee/deck/hull is basically a solid triangle. If the deck is moving up, it must mean the hull is moving in – not a happy situation really.

    So I would say that there is a structural deficiency that needs to be addressed. Photos would of course help the understanding of the particular setup substantially.

    Lateral movement is usually because the top part of the shroudplate is not angled correctly to align with the shroud angle – though again you can't usually actually see the movement in action.

    The only solution – aside from addressing the root cause – seems to me to be a wider cut-out around the shroudplate to all the sealing material sufficient volume to flex without losing adhesion to the stainless or the timber. Or I suppose a boot of some sort - but that is really accepting defeat in structural terms.

    I would be pretty unhappy sailing a boat with that amount of movement in the shroudplates and deck structure.

    Cheers -- George
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    I'm holding out on seeing some pictures. And don't be afraid to post if it's a glass boat...I have that myself. From you description it's a mid-'80s arrangement where the chainplate runs through the deck to a lowered bulkhead? My J-30 had a lot of movement at mid-deck, but none at the chainplates which were at a main bulkhead. Looking forward to seeing some pics.

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    Of course if you do cut a bigger hole in the deck be sure to seal up the ply edges with plenty of epoxy. It will be hard to get in there but do what you can. If you've had leaks there over the years you may find you need to cut out a lot of deck and build back towards the shroud plates with new ply. Assuming of course it's a ply deck.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post
    I assume the deck and hull are bonded/fastened to the shroudplate knee (that would be normal practice), so something that shouldn't be giving is in fact giving - which is difficult to imagine if the knee/deck/hull is basically a solid triangle.

    Cheers -- George
    No, the deck is not supported, not bonded to the shroud plate knee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henning 4148 View Post
    Imagine - a modern design with chainplates moved well in, the chainplates going through the deck, close to the cabin side but not directly at the cabin side. Imagine - the deck not being supported in this area from below for reasons the designer knows (he will have had good reasons), so, some relative movement possible between the chainplate and the deck at this joint. The former owner of our boat has tried the usual list of sealants here over the years, but non has worked permanently, I believe due to the possible relative movement between deck and chainplate when the boat / the rigg works.

    Now the question: What will work to keep this joint sealed permanently or at least for a few years? Is there a traditional approach like felt and grease? Microcellular rubber? ???

    Score zero in this test, due to not reading the question.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Yes, the boat is fglass. The movements are my estimation of the flex the deck might have here against the knee, which is bonded to the hull but by design has a gap of 1 or 2 cm to the deck. So, the designer wanted to decouple hull and deck here, probably to avoid a hard spot with resulting cracks in the gel coat. Fglass boats flex ... When a wave hits the side of the boat, there will be some flex, in case of solid water on deck, there will be some flex, ... ... The knee is approx. 1/2 metres behind the main bulkhead. The design or similar designs are also used on wooden boats as shown in above pictures. It is a cause for upset on many boats, wooden and fglass. And there must be a solution that works. A boot is a good idea. Thank you for your ideas and input!

    J's - I did look at the disassembled main bulkhead of a small J yesterday. The chainplates are attached to this main bulkhead, the deck sealing is similar, it had started to leak, the bulkhead rotted and has been taken out now ...

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    ^ Just waling around the side deck will cause flex.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, the deck is not supported, not bonded to the shroud plate knee.



    Score zero in this test, due to not reading the question.
    Oops
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Some thoughts... We have a narrow gap with a steel frame around hole in a thin fiberglass (FRP) sheet with a steel bar running through the hole. The steel frame stiffens the hole in the FRP sheet and sandwiches the gasket material. There is lateral and vertical motion between the bar and the FRP sheet. Maybe the gap is too small to allow the sealant to flex? A boot might help there.

    Sealing against joint movement requires a seal that can flex. If the sealant is too thick for the width, there will be a lot of sheer stress in the seal and it will break. A boot is a thin seal that will allow for a lot of movement without a lot of stress. Large windows use a relatively wide, thin silicone (devils spawn) bead with a foam backer rod that forms a wide, thin gasket. In the case of a very soft but elastic material like silicone (25 Shore A), thin is a relative term that can mean at least as wide as thick. For harder, stiffer rubbers the thickness should be a lot less than the width.

    My first thought about boot material was THIS STUFF. I always thought of it as rubberized canvas, but it seems to have any number of names. On reflection, it might be difficult to work with, but not so difficult to make. Mast boots made of painted(?) canvas come to mind. I would consider saturating a cloth sheet with a RTV elastomer. An open weave cloth is easier to saturate. Even fiberglass is fairly tough when impregnated with silicone rubber, but I would lean toward a fabric like Dynel, or Kevlar and a sealant like a butyl or polyurethane caulk, but more of a self-leveling concrete repair PU or a roofing butyl. Polysulfide maybe, but I have only worked with the very expensive aircraft stuff, so I don't know how good the reasonably priced material is. AC-360 B-1/2 is very good, but at $10/oz, it is pricey. It is 2-part material so you have to use all of the tube at once and you have to know how to use the mixing tube or you are out $35 an have a mess to clean up.

    I think (as in don't actually know) that a gap between the steel escutcheon and the chainplate of at least 3mm is a good idea to give the boot some ability to flex without much stress. (Phil, I think [could be wrong] that your Tuffnol needs a wider gap and is much thicker than needed.) Cleaning all prior sealant residue is also mandatory, especially silicone, which is very difficult to completely remove. If a mist of distilled water beads up, the silicone is still there. Fill the gap around the the chain plate with some closed cell foam or other caulk that won't prevent the sealant from curing. Then wet out the boot material and apply. The fabric can be in several pieces because with a decent amount of overlap, the sealant will hold nicely. A fillet of caulk will form more of a boot.

    Two solutions by people who have actually done this:

    Ocean Navigator / May-June 2014 / Curing chainplate leaks.
    http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-Ju...inplate-leaks/ Note that the primer is key to bonding to stainless.

    Rebedding the chainplates threefools.org
    http://www.threefools.org/velocity/P...ainplates.html

    <<< http://www.projectboatzen.com/chainplate-maintenance/
    Source for many types of monkey dung (butyl) https://www.bestmaterials.com/butyl-...aulk-1103-html
    https://www.bestmaterials.com/Handli...re_in_RVs.aspx
    >>>>

    Why is it that paint and sealant won't stick to stainless steel while there is no food that won't bond permanently to a stainless steel frying pan?
    Last edited by MN Dave; 05-01-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    I suspect that some of the problem with failure of modern sealants used in this application is from heat. The exposed steel heats in the summer sun to fairly high temperature and will cause degradation of the seal.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    The loading of chainplates needs to be decided amongst a combination of supporting components. We are faced with a very involved repair of a famous boat that had a chain plate begin to pull through the deck on the first day her new owner took her out for a sail. "Common Sense 1" is a 28 foot sloop that sports a very large rig. Her mast towers forty two feet above the deck! The boat was built in 1931 with the intent of being a fast sailing club racer with overnight accommodations. But, sadly, various owners of the fast little sloop failed to make the joint between the covering board and the upper chain plate water tight and, over the years the sheer clamp rotted out! The boat had been rebuilt but the former owner made no effort to repalace the clamps, even though a new deck and beams were laid. So her new owner, Todd Rogers, and I are replacing the offending clamp without removing the deck. That is akin to changing your socks without removing your shoes! In addition, the upper sections of frames in the way of the chain plates are being sistered. Every thing must be carefully planned as the boat is in the water and work progresses slowly as a result. Often water containers are placed on the deck, opposite to the work, in order to raise the lower areas out of the water by heeling the boat. The plan is that once the boat is hauled, the improvements mentioned above in post #11, will be added. Here one end of the clamp is being cut to a scarf pattern. Jay

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    This is the bost prior to her last rebuild. The deck house is not original as the boat was, originally, a flush decker.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Take a look at this product. https://www.sika.com/content/corp/ma.../sikaflex.html
    Note that like deck "caulking" you do not want to adhere to three surfaces. It's rate of elasticity will be nill if it is used on a 90 join. Only the opposing surfaces should be adhered. The size of the "gap" should be large enough to work within the rate of elasticity of the product. You may have to call for tech support to find that answer.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    What is the usual list of sealants? They range from passive sealants through to nearly full adhesive in function.
    There are specialized types for stainless but there's also a normal way of doing it and that's the cover plate pictured earlier. Back in the day with mastic, now probably with one of the other sika types. 291 is general purpose , for example. 291 isn't uv stable but it's nearly all covered so would have a life of a few years.
    My chain plates have no perceptible movement, but instead of bolting the plates down I have started just floating them on a bed of sealant for 4 less deck piercings, ie no bolts or screws.
    Given the description, My bet is this is one of the few cases 5200 would be suitable, as it's just as much a glue as a sealant. The cover plate could be ss, but it could be a modern sheet material as well, glass? Is starboard uv stable?
    Last edited by John B; 04-20-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    I have seen several posts on this forum that said that 3M 5200 will harden and crack over time. I can't confirm this. Can anyone confirm or debunk?

    What canoeyawl said in Post#25 about constraining the sealant is important.
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I have seen several posts on this forum that said that 3M 5200 will harden and crack over time. I can't confirm this. Can anyone confirm or debunk?

    What canoeyawl said in Post#25 about constraining the sealant is important.
    My "bonnets" are sealed in 5200. Admittedly Maine, where UV isn't as big an issue as some places - but they stayed sealed for over 5 years. They might've gone longer, but the boat got new bulwarks & a deck resurface, so the 5200 has been replaced (had to take the old stuff off).
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    What about something that works something like a Maurice Griffith hatch? An inverted cup welded or epoxied to the chainplate. A tube - smaller in diameter - sealed to the deck with the chainplate passing freely through the middle. They overlap but do not touch. The arrangement keeps out water coming from above while allowing completely free movement of the chainplate. It does not stop green water.

    You could put some kind of a gasket between the cup and the tube to retard the flow of green water.
    I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen very nicely and then go out and do exactly what I want! (Apologies to Lerner and Lowe.)

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Roofing sealant -- modern roofing tar? It stays flexible in direct hot sun.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Cedar Wedges set in Jefferie's marine glue Gentlemen! They can be removed if needed. 5200 Will cause all manner of problems if you ever need to take the chain plate out! You may even need to replace the covering board if the 5200 won't come loose!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    It's a fibreglass deck on a fibreglass boat, Jay.

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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    It's a fibreglass deck on a fibreglass boat, Jay.
    See post #17
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    See post #17
    Join the Zero Score club with me on this one Jay -- Cheers George
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    Default Re: Need trick to seal chainplate deck joint

    Thanks for all the ideas, keep them coming!

    If cedar wedges set in Jeffery's marine glue work, I would not mind, even on an f-glass boat. In any case, it is an interesting idea to use the swelling and elasticity of wood to seal the joint. I am beyond the point where I would say, that the solution must be beautifull - I need a solution that works to stop the damage the leak is doing to the boat. And as the combination of chainplate and bonnet (I learned a new word here) is very common, it seems (or was it seams?) I am not alone in my quest for the perfect fix.

    As for Jeffery's - a product that stays permanently plastic as Jeffery's (or as butyl tape or stockholm tar) would cope well with slow movements, but I have my doubts it would cope well with fast movements which would occur if a gust hits the sails, the boat gybes fast or a wave hits the side of the boat. Or, to put it differently, all these products (similar to elastic curing sealants) would need room to work in case of fast movements. As would membrane and boot solutions and the sealed Griffiths hatch solution. Luckily, I do have some space available, above decks, there are approx. 1,5 ... 2 cm chainplate height available before the lower end of the bottlescrews. To the side, I heve several cm as well which I could use. So, implementing solutions that will work is possible on my boat, I can put a rubber membrane seal above the joint.

    Another suggestion I found elsewhere was a packing of somewhat compressed neoprene under the bonnet as a seal. Again, it would need some room to work, but it might cope well with fast movements.

    Any more ideas solutions?
    Last edited by Henning 4148; 04-22-2019 at 04:02 AM.

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