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Thread: Society changes

  1. #1
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    Default Society changes

    This pops up frequently - 'art' from a by-gone era, now considered offensive. The confederate statues are one aspect, though their history is perhaps more damning. Now a California school is debating destroying these murals, as non-pc.

    I have mixed feeling about this. It feels like we're tryinig to 'write over' history, rather than learning from it, not to mention destruction of art.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/a...y-debated.html
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Odd. The murals don't seem to show a sanitized, manifest destiny, advance of the glorious white civilization version at all. Washington DID have slaves working in his fields, although he freed all those he owned personally in his will. Westward expansion WAS over the dead bodies of natives. It's a good idea to show that, methinks.

    But note that it's San Francisco. In Berkeley, some days it seemed like I was 3mm to the left of Newt Gingrich.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 04-11-2019 at 12:16 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Society changes

    The student who wrote favoring keeping the murals got it right:

    “The fresco shows us exactly how brutal colonization and genocide really were and are. The fresco is a warning and reminder of the fallibility of our hallowed leaders.”

    I hope no one is confused about the differences between these important murals and the racist Confederate statues.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Society changes

    I agree 100%. This is very, very different from an adulatory statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    The student who wrote favoring keeping the murals got it right:

    “The fresco shows us exactly how brutal colonization and genocide really were and are. The fresco is a warning and reminder of the fallibility of our hallowed leaders.”

    I hope no one is confused about the differences between these important murals and the racist Confederate statues.
    Just so. Keep them and use them as a teaching aid. History, Politics, Ethics, Social Studies, so many opportunities.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Society changes

    I do not agree with rewriting history at all, politicians on retirement attempt it all the time. and their previous dupes give them far too much credibility, rather than prosecuting them for their crimes. The last effort at that was at Nuremberg, largely at the behest of the US. No longer.
    The invasion of the US and Aus. have been covered up for ever by that rewriting. Of course at this stage the invasion is a fact and cannot be reversed, but it must be acknowledged. At least the US has had the grace to term the resistance as 'wars' in your history. Aus has not, guilt still applies.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    The invasion of the US and Aus. have been covered up for ever by that rewriting. Of course at this stage the invasion is a fact and cannot be reversed, but it must be acknowledged. At least the US has had the grace to term the resistance as 'wars' in your history. Aus has not, guilt still applies.
    Homo Erectus got to Asia including Java first. Should Homo Sapiens feel guilt for replacing them?
    How about the Neanderthals and Denisovans?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Society changes

    from the article and it says everything you need to know:

    The works were created in the mid-1930s by Victor Arnautoff, a social realist, for the Works Progress Administration, an agency created under Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal that provided public works jobs for the unemployed during the Great Depression.
    Arnautoff, who was born in Russia and taught at Stanford, was a Communist who embedded messages critical of the founding father in his murals. He depicted Washington, accurately, at a time when that was rarely acknowledged, as a slave owner and the leader of the nation that annihilated Native Americans. There are no cherry trees.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Homo Erectus got to Asia including Java first. Should Homo Sapiens feel guilt for replacing them?
    How about the Neanderthals and Denisovans?
    False equivalence in my opinion PM. One was simply migration by degree, the others organised invasions by colonial powers, and a refusal to acknowledge the rights of previous inhabitants. In many ways Australias' treatment of the indigenous was as bad as Belgium in the Congo.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    False equivalence in my opinion PM. One was simply migration by degree, the others organised invasions by colonial powers, and a refusal to acknowledge the rights of previous inhabitants. In many ways Australias' treatment of the indigenous was as bad as Belgium in the Congo.
    Nope, not bourn out by the archaeology.
    So, should the Italians feel guilt for their armed conquest of Europe?
    How long in the past before it becomes OK?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Society changes

    The WPA ended up doing so many good things - this being one.

    Put up a plaque explaining it's background & use it as a teaching tool. I hate people who want to destroy/hide history.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Art, is the "everything you need to know"

    "a Communist who embedded messages critical of the founding father in his murals"

    or

    "He depicted Washington, accurately, at a time when that was rarely acknowledged, as a slave owner and the leader of the nation that annihilated Native Americans. There are no cherry trees."

    Or both?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Those frescoes are something worth preserving. They were meant to trigger. The artist would have loved the conversation about them now. I now want to go see them again. When any comes to visit me, we can go there as I love to see all the WPA work this city has remaining.

    This art is a reminder to a city that now caters to the very rich and greedy that there was a time where other strongly supported viewpoints other than capitalism produced the greatest gains of labor struggles and human equality in the last 100 years.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 04-12-2019 at 05:12 PM. Reason: grammer
    A large nose is the mark of a witty, courteous, affable, generous and liberal man. My feature suggests an excellent side kick of good index.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Society changes



    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 04-12-2019 at 05:02 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Society changes

    I cannot classify those murals as offensive by any stretch of imagination.
    They depict the less glorious sides of historic reality that aren't enough talked about theese days.

    In my oppinion each man or woman must stand to be judged for what he/she did. All of us do bad things occasionally. The best way to avoid doing the same stupid thing over again is to openly confess that it happened and learn from it.

    If you start to erase the less politically correct sides of your history that will be yet another step towards either facism or communism. Heil Trump......
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Much as Diego Rivera did. Art skewering pomposity. Ever subversive!
    Xanthorrea

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Society changes

    Maybe these were some of the uneducated snowflakes whos parents bribed them on to the rowing team.
    The colonization effort that brought my family here to the US was no different than any other human migration. MigrationMigration, conquest and defence seem to be human traits. Just looking at the short term, the last 4.5 million years.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Society changes

    The more I look at the murals, the more I like them; a pretty much unsanitized version of history showing the good and the bad. I'm a fan of Diego Rivera too; it's worth going to Detroit just to seen his murals as the Detroit Institute of Arts.

    Remember, this is San Francisco, where well-intentioned high dudgeon has been brought to a high degree of perfection.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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