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Thread: Skookum Maru

  1. #1121
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ...
    This was not the easiest cruise, nor the most relaxing, nor was it always fun. But we went to some new places, had adventures, met our challenges head-on and, as Tory commented last night, we all worked well together to overcome them. Not a bad way to spend a week.
    My ex-wife once told me I was incapable of taking a vacation. I replied with "What about our last trip?" Her response was "That wasn't a vacation, it was an adventure."

    I guess she's right!

    Thanks for telling us about your trip & for the pics of your ugly boats Chris!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #1122
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    Thank you for taking us along on the trip.

    I have some time off next week as does one of my daughters. Gotta decide if we head north to the San Juans or into the sound Sound
    Well the nice thing is you can't really go wrong either way, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    My ex-wife once told me I was incapable of taking a vacation. I replied with "What about our last trip?" Her response was "That wasn't a vacation, it was an adventure."

    I guess she's right!

    Thanks for telling us about your trip & for the pics of your ugly boats Chris!
    Ha! Well for a not-at-all-ugly boat, the couple that we met yesterday in Penn Cove just sent me this photo of their superb kayak. It was built by David Hazen, Eugene, Oregon. A photo of it appears in his publication, “The Stripper’s Guide to Canoe-building” (Tamal Vista Publications)



    (photo courtesy of the owners)
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  3. #1123
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Another dock walk find at Shilshole. Serenade, a Huckins Offshore 48.



    Serenade is a sister to my old boat, Perihelion (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...and-redemption).
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  4. #1124
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    It's been a busy couple of weeks, as we have been working to complete a major project milestone at work. Boat projects have been limited to a few maintenance tasks like changing the oil and doing varnish touchup. I'm trying to get into the habit of doing a bit of varnish work every time I have a spare 30 minutes or so aboard. So far that seems to be working. The handrails are getting done at least, and they were starting to get a little shabby so it's nice to see them looking nice and shiny again.

    But in between deadlines and varnishing stints I've been thinking about the Whirlwind.



    Or, more specifically, about upgrading the period-correct and lovely to look at, but also stinky, leaky, and generally antisocial Evinrude outboard. A Honda four stroke would be practical, easy, reliable, fuel-efficient and quiet. And I suspect that's what we will end up with, but I would really like to go electric if possible so I have been looking into options.

    At the most basic level, we could use the Whirlwind as just a sort of overgrown dinghy and put a small electric outboard on it. The EP Carry electric motor that we have would probably push it along at 3-4kts, or about as fast as I could row our little fiberglass dinghy. We may try this option just to see how we like that setup but the whole idea behind buying a larger tender was to have a boat we could use for island hopping and general exploration, which really demands a bit more speed.

    The next step up would be one of the 9.9hp-equivalent (5kW-6kW), 48v electric outboards from Elco, Torqeedo or ePropulsion, combined with a ~150Ah lithium ion battery. I haven't run detailed numbers yet but I expect that would give somewhere around a 12-14kt top speed, depending on load, with maybe an hour of run time. Or a longer run time and increased range at slower speeds. Which I think would be fine for the sort of use we have in mind. That option is not inexpensive, at somewhere around $8k-$10k all up, but the total cost for the boat and electric setup would still be comparable to a used, 20 of 30 year old Boston Whaler so it's not an entirely unreasonable amount to spend on a tender. (New Boston Whalers are worth more than Skookum Maru. For a 15' boat. Which just seems insane to me but that's a different topic entirely).

    Functionally, the electric outboard seems like it would work. And I like the thought of day trips in a quiet, efficient, electric-powered runabout. But once we get back to Skookum Maru with the charge meter hovering in the single digits after a day of exploring, what next? Charging the battery is a problem that is less easily solved. Options I've considered include:

    Solar: Possible, but even with a fairly large solar panel array - 1kW say - it would take a day or more to fully charge the battery. Which might work but it would limit the use of the tender.

    Generator: Also possible, but adding a generator would nearly double the cost of the project, and running a generator to charge the battery somewhat defeats the purpose of having an electric boat to begin with. Plus I hate the idea of running a generator at anchor.

    Inverter While Underway: In theory we could charge the battery from the inverter while underway using our current house battery bank (2 8D AGM batteries with around 165Ah usable capacity). However running a charge cable to the boat while under tow seems problematic. It would be heavy, difficult to manage, likely trailing in the water... yeah, I think that's a terrible idea. Ok, never mind.

    Inverter While at Anchor: With a sufficiently large house bank it could be possible to charge the tender overnight while at anchor. If we had, for example, a 800Ah (usable) 12v house bank combined with a 1kW solar panel array we would have enough battery capacity to charge the tender overnight, with enough left over to run all of our systems at anchor. And a 1kW solar array would recharge the batteries during the day. All this is very theoretical though. I'm not even doing back-of-the-napkin math here. I'm just pulling numbers out of my head. But it's an interesting approach to think about.

    Some questions on the large-house-bank idea:

    Would it make sense to replace the existing AGM battery bank with lithium ion batteries? The cost of lithium isn't that much more than AGM when you factor in the relative discharge capacity for each type. And the lithium battery would be a fraction of the size and weight. On the other hand I still have some safety concerns about putting a large lithium battery in a wooden boat. I have heard that the new LiFePo4 batteries are less likely to catch fire but I would want to do some more research here.

    What are the real-world limitations of the system? Need to run some real numbers. How long would it take to recharge the tender from the house bank? What size inverter is needed? How long would it take to recharge the house bank using the solar panels?

    Wouldn't a nice Honda four stroke be more practical? Yes, definitely. Cheaper too. Probably what we will end up with. Not nearly as much fun to contemplate though.

    If I could do the whole conversion for under $10k I think it would be worthwhile but all of the charging system options put the cost well over than number. So either we would need to stick with a gas engine or we
    to use less electricity to run the tender (meaning slower speeds, lower powered motor, and lower costs for all the pieces of the system). The smallest Elco is a 24v, 3kW, 5hp-equivalent motor. That seems like a useful improvement over the EP Carry (0.23kW). It's going to be a bit marginal for a 14' boat - I doubt it will plane - but I expect that it would do fine for general harbor use and gunkholing. And it would let us try out the electric option with less cost and complexity. The complete motor setup with controls, charger and AGM batteries would be around $5k. Which still leaves room for a meaningful increase in the house bank and solar charging capacity for Skookum Maru within the budget.

    Hmmm.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  5. #1125
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    Default

    You might want to try running the EPC at 0.5 kW, to see what happens. It needs a software update (easy by Bluetooth), and 36 V. If you can rig 3 of your existing 12 V batteries it should cost nothing to test. I doubt the boat will plane, though. Planing electric seems tough. Even if the budget was unlimited the amount of battery needed to get decent range adds weight, which then needs more power...

  6. #1126
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    You might want to try running the EPC at 0.5 kW, to see what happens. It needs a software update (easy by Bluetooth), and 36 V. If you can rig 3 of your existing 12 V batteries it should cost nothing to test. I doubt the boat will plane, though. Planing electric seems tough. Even if the budget was unlimited the amount of battery needed to get decent range adds weight, which then needs more power...

    I agree. Testing the EPC at 36V does seem like the right idea. I expect it would power the boat at rowing speeds, which is fine for shore use. Conveniently, the one we bought came with the 2 x 12V, 12Ah battery configuration that they were supplying last year. And another 12v battery of the same type is available for around $150. So I could make a 36v battery without much cost or effort. That setup should give somewhere around an hour of run time. And we also have a 36V, 65W solar panel that could be used for charging so actually we have almost all of the bits needed to create a solar tender right now.

    As for higher speeds and planing... maybe? On the one hand, this video of a classic fiberglass runabout powered by an EP-20 just shows it plowing around with a huge wake, never getting on plane:



    So that's in line with what you are saying. But I expect that the Whirlwind is a good bit lighter than that boat. A 20hp outboard should get it to plane easily. A 20hp gas outboard, starting battery and six gallons of gas is around 200lbs. The EP-20 and a 48V, 150Ah LiFePo4 battery would be maybe twenty pounds more than that. That doesn't seem like enough to make a difference? Sure, you would drain the battery quickly running at that speed so it wouldn't be something you would want to do very often, but the 150Ah battery should have around 30 minutes of run time at full throttle. Which might be enough to be useful for what we have in mind. On the other hand, looking at the specs for the EP-20, it's a 8.8kW motor which is more like 12hp, not 20....

    Anyway all these considerations are thoughts for another time. Testing the EP Carry is the next project. Ok then.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  7. #1127
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Just gonna throw out a contrarian thought here. Completely off the cuff & unresearched.

    Part of the environmental impact of any motive source is the original manufacture. Comparing an outboard like the Honda to an electric outboard, batteries, charger, and solar panel (& its controller) strikes me as a whole lot more manufacturing "environmental overhead" than the Honda & that needs to be factored in.

    IOW - how long would one have to run the electric setup to make it more ecologically sound when the manufacturing process is figured in?

    Of course you could then do the same comparison on the old outboard vs. the Honda...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #1128
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Just gonna throw out a contrarian thought here. Completely off the cuff & unresearched.

    Part of the environmental impact of any motive source is the original manufacture. Comparing an outboard like the Honda to an electric outboard, batteries, charger, and solar panel (& its controller) strikes me as a whole lot more manufacturing "environmental overhead" than the Honda & that needs to be factored in.

    IOW - how long would one have to run the electric setup to make it more ecologically sound when the manufacturing process is figured in?

    Of course you could then do the same comparison on the old outboard vs. the Honda...

    Ha! Well I agree with your point but of course I have a counter argument. Which is that yes, new manufacture is inherently wasteful if an already manufactured option exists, and the resource consumption required to make something has to be offset against any increase in efficiency. But pleasure boats are a tiny fraction of our total carbon footprint and resource usage. Moving from gas to electric power isn’t going to make any real difference either way. No matter which side the equation lands, it’s fractions of a penny against a trillion dollar debt. Not worth thinking about. But we need a tectonic shift in energy sources over the next few decades. That’s a process which will take technical improvements, infrastructure improvements and profound mental shifts. And it’s the people with the resources to be early adopters that will get the ball rolling. So for me the choice is not about which option is the most efficient use of resources right now, but what actions I can take to change the future. Someone needs to spend money on the products that we have available now, so that’s what I’m trying to do.
    Last edited by cstevens; 09-06-2021 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Autocorrect!
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  9. #1129
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ha! Well I agree with your point but of course I have a counter argument. Which is that yes, new manufacture is inherently wasteful if an already manufactured option exists, and the resource consumption required to make something has to be offset against any increase in efficiency. But pleasure boats are a tiny fraction of our total carbon footprint and resource usage. Moving from gas to electric power isn’t going to make any real difference either way. No matter which side the equation lands, it’s fractions of a penny against a trillion dollar debt. Not worth thinking about. But we need a tectonic shift in energy sources over the next few decades. That’s a process which will take technical improvements, infrastructure improvements and profound mental shifts. And it’s the people with the respiratory be early adopters that will get the ball rolling. So for me the choice is not about which option is the most efficient use of resources right now, but what actions I can take to change the future. Someone needs to spend money on the products that we have available now, so that’s what I’m trying to do.
    Fair 'nuf & completely valid - sorta like pot growers in CA funding a lot of the initial solar panel research?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #1130
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    I was not saying it could not be made to plane, just that it is hard to store enough energy for any distance. If you will be using rowing speed mostly and planing for an hour then electric may work well. I see a lot of new design electric boats now (mostly from Europe), many shown planing, but if you dig into the specs they won't be doing it for long.

    I picked up this book, by the designer of a solar ferry in India. It is short and to the point, how to optimize hull shape, motor, battery and charging. Mostly for bigger boats, but I found it useful.
    https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electri...0957139&sr=8-9

  11. #1131
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I was not saying it could not be made to plane, just that it is hard to store enough energy for any distance. If you will be using rowing speed mostly and planing for an hour then electric may work well. I see a lot of new design electric boats now (mostly from Europe), many shown planing, but if you dig into the specs they won't be doing it for long.

    I picked up this book, by the designer of a solar ferry in India. It is short and to the point, how to optimize hull shape, motor, battery and charging. Mostly for bigger boats, but I found it useful.
    https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Electri...0957139&sr=8-9
    Ah, yes that’s about what I have been expecting. You can go fast, but not for very long. Mostly we have no need or wish to go fast but it would be nice to have the option. And thanks for the book link. Looks interesting. I’ve ordered a copy and am looking forward to learning some things.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  12. #1132
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    That video is pretty cool.
    The thing that puts me off powerboats is the noise, they are just unpleasant to ride in because of it.
    A well muffled diesel is tolerable, but turning off the engine in a sailboat is a happy moment.
    With runabouts the sweet spot for efficiency is just on the plane, so if that runabout in the video could just get up planing the range would increase by 15% and it would get there much faster.

  13. #1133
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    That video is pretty cool.
    The thing that puts me off powerboats is the noise, they are just unpleasant to ride in because of it.
    A well muffled diesel is tolerable, but turning off the engine in a sailboat is a happy moment.
    With runabouts the sweet spot for efficiency is just on the plane, so if that runabout in the video could just get up planing the range would increase by 15% and it would get there much faster.
    I agree on the noise - shutting off the engine on a sailboat is always a relief. Good sound dampening helps, but does not eliminate. On small powerboats, while I understand the issues with an I/O - the difference between a small 4 cylinder engine inside a soundproofed box vs. an outboard with little insulation & the motor up higher is significant.

    When running an outboard or I/O, I accelerate up onto the plane & then back off until it is a couple of knots over minimum planing speed. While there's still noise, it's much quieter than say 3/4 throttle & way easier on gas. I have a (FG - apologies) 17' VHull bowrider with a 3.0 I/O. Sweet spot for cruising is ~ 2900 RPM & 23-24MPH. It burns about 1.25 gal/hr at that speed. Not bad I figure & the noise is tolerable.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #1134
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    It's funny about noise... I have spent my life aboard motorboats, with only limited experience sailing anything larger than a dinghy, but I agree about that feeling aboard a sailboat when you shut down the motor. In that moment time slows. The rhythm of nature - the tides, wind, and waves - replaces the frenetic, mechanical, human beat of the engine. The sailor is no longer connected to the land, is free to imagine all possibilities, all destinations. In another life I would be that person (my high school class voted me "most likely to sail around the world") but I have chosen a different path, with no regrets.

    For me, the regular rumble of a reliable engine is such a constant companion aboard a boat that I honestly think I would miss it. It's the sound I fell asleep to on overnight voyages as a boy, or woke up to on mornings where my parents would get us underway early, and I would lie in bed listening to the engine and wondering where we were heading next, before throwing on my clothes and going up to the salon for breakfast. Pancakes, or maybe a fresh-baked coffee cake.

    I find the noise of an electric motor, on the other hand, to be shrill and irritating. The whine of a mosquito against the contented purr of a big cat. It's the one thing I am really not looking forward to, and I do hope that the noise is less irritating in person than in all the electric boat videos I've watched. If we ever add electric power to Skookum Maru I might have to create a recording of the 3-71 to play while underway, just to recapture that feeling.

    Today we celebrated our solidarity with the workers of the world by casting off the lines and taking our yacht to Blake Island, a local slice of paradise that is set aside as a park for the use of the proletariat. The irony of this exercise is not lost on me. However it was a lovely day on the water, with a few beautiful boats thrown in as well.

    We headecd across the Sound from Shilshole:



    Crossed paths with Teal, an ex-U.S. Fisheries Patrol boat:



    Anchored off of Blake Island...



    ...where we chatted with the builder of this lovely little peapod.



    It's a Lighthouse Tender from CLC. A lovely thing that the owner built last year, complete with a sailing rig. CLC call it a peapod but it's not really shaped like one, except that it has two pointy ends. It's shaped more like a small lifeboat conversion. But peapod or not, I'd put this one on my list of boats I'd like to own for sure.

    Then Waterhawk II showed up and made the rest of us look shabby. She an Ed Monk design built by Jensen Motorboat that lives on Skookum Maru's dock at Stimson Marina. She's one of the best-kept boats I've ever seen. Ship shape and Bristol fashion at all times. I've never seen her in any condition other than show-ready.



    We had lunch, rowed ashore and walked on the beach, and got home in time for supper. Not a bad day.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  15. #1135
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Sounds like an awesome day, Chris! Regarding your "...recording of the 3-71..." you'd need to come up with some way to add the subtle vibration to the hull underfoot. That was always part of what I enjoyed about powering

  16. #1136
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Sounds like an awesome day, Chris! Regarding your "...recording of the 3-71..." you'd need to come up with some way to add the subtle vibration to the hull underfoot. That was always part of what I enjoyed about powering
    I hadn't thought of that! Funny, we do a good bit of virtual reality and augmented reality (AR/VR) work so I have some experience with haptic vibration systems.... Something like this mounted under the pilothouse cabin sole would do the trick I think:

    https://www.immersive-floor.com/

    I've been thinking further about the idea of using the EP Carry motor on the Whirlwind. A bit of research online turned up information on two small EP Carry-powered cruising boats built by Joe Grez, the inventor of the EP Carry. One in particular is nearly identical to the Whirlwind so provides a good idea of what sort of setup would work for us and what type of performance we could expect.

    https://www.electricpaddle.com/solar...g-epcarry.html

    The boat, Swe’Pea, started life as a hot molded, 14' runabout just like the Whirlwind, so the weights and hull form should be nearly identical. It was set up with a standard EP Carry motor and 24V, 10Ah battery along with a 200W solar panel array. The post linked above shows performance data for a 120nm, solar-only cruise. The boat averaged 3.1kts with a max speed of around 4kts. But I thought the most significant piece of data was that:

    "Minimum speed was 2 knots at full power against tides, est 15 knots winds, and wind-chop in Port Madison bay."

    My biggest concern with using a motor the size of the EP Carry was that it might be completely overpowered by conditions that we would be likely to encounter in our local waters. But 2kts in against tide and chop is not bad I think. It's not something I would want to do for very long (bouncing around at 2kts in a 14' boat is not my idea of a good afternoon on the water) but it's good to know that some headway would be possible if needed. Although I would carry a set of oars as well, just in case. The motor might run out of battery power but I can row all day, given a sufficient supply of lemonade and ham sandwiches.

    These examples combined with Rick's experience with the solar Walkabout have convinced me that the low power, solar charging option is the way to go, at least for the first iteration of our solar tender.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  17. #1137
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Just found this video of Swe'Pea underway.

    https://www.facebook.com/linda.grez/...6723540884796/

    That looks perfect to me.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  18. #1138
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    If you ever really miss the sound of a 3-71, just come over to Snoose and we'll light that thing off.

  19. #1139
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    I regularly run the 18' Walkabout into 20+ kts wind on Suisun Marsh. I would have great trouble maintaining 2 kts by rowing against this wind, but with the EPC I can hold 3 kts by going to 8A electric current (about 210 W).

    Current is another thing. If the boat's hull speed is 4 kts then this motor will not get you upstream against 5 kts.

    This is my trip video motoring against current in False River. I do make it past by following the eddies at the edge:



    BTW: Did you find out why your EPC was cutting out?
    Last edited by rgthom; 09-07-2021 at 12:49 PM. Reason: added question

  20. #1140
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    If you ever really miss the sound of a 3-71, just come over to Snoose and we'll light that thing off.
    Excellent!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I regularly run the 18' Walkabout into 20+ kts wind on Suisun Marsh. I would have great trouble maintaining 2 kts by rowing against this wind, but with the EPC I can hold 3 kts by going to 8A electric current (about 210 W).

    Current is another thing. If the boat's hull speed is 4 kts then this motor will not get you upstream against 5 kts.

    This is my trip video motoring against current in False River. I do make it past by following the eddies at the edge:



    BTW: Did you find out why your EPC was cutting out?

    Interesting. That's still not bad I think. I would have a hard time rowing against that wind as well. In calm conditions I can hold 5kts for a couple of hours at least in an open water rowing shell but there is no chance I could do anything like that in a heavy, wide boat like the Whirlwind. You have tried combining oars and electric power, yes? Did that make any difference? I recall you posting something about it but I can't find it now. But I guess hull speed is hull speed and it doesn't really matter how you get there. If the water is moving the other way faster than the boat can go, you are going to go backwards. Better to wait it out if possible.

    So far I have not solved the motor cut out problem but I'm in conversations with Joe about it. At first I thought that the battery was just dead but I couldn't get the charger to indicate that it was charging. So I tested the batteries and I get 13.3V on both so it appears to be fully charged. Now I'm thinking maybe the magnetic kill switch is the problem but I'm waiting for Joe to respond with further advice.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  21. #1141
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Yes I have combined rowing with the motor, it works. The EPC has very little rudder effect when held centered, so the boat rows pretty normally. The motor control algorithm reduces power during a pull, you can hear it and see the current drop. Joe confirmed that was on purpose. I did make a short video:


  22. #1142
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Not to clog up your thread with my videos, but this one against wind and chop on the Sacramento River may be of interest. I was able to maintain 3 kts:


  23. #1143
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    ^^ not clogging at all! It's all good info. It definitely looks like the EP Carry is far more capable than I expected. I'm looking forward to getting ours working and try it out on the Whirlwind.

    Next up, how am I going to get the 130lb Evinrude off of the boat? An engine hoist is probably the easiest, most practical option but I keep thinking a gantry crane would be really useful to have in the shop...
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  24. #1144
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ^^ not clogging at all! It's all good info. It definitely looks like the EP Carry is far more capable than I expected. I'm looking forward to getting ours working and try it out on the Whirlwind.

    Next up, how am I going to get the 130lb Evinrude off of the boat? An engine hoist is probably the easiest, most practical option but I keep thinking a gantry crane would be really useful to have in the shop...
    New toy time!

    Or - staple some small stuff to the ceiling sheetrock & lift with that?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #1145
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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    New toy time!

    Or - staple some small stuff to the ceiling sheetrock & lift with that?
    Er, well the shop ceiling is concrete. And it's the basement garage of an apartment building so I suspect that people will complain if I start drilling into it! Which is why a gantry crane would be really handy.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Er, well the shop ceiling is concrete. And it's the basement garage of an apartment building so I suspect that people will complain if I start drilling into it! Which is why a gantry crane would be really handy.
    I was joshing...

    Tripod? 3 2x4s tied together at the top & a come-along suspended from it. I've pulled a lot of car engines that way. The issue would be clearing the transom so you are pulling directly up.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I was joshing...

    Tripod? 3 2x4s tied together at the top & a come-along suspended from it. I've pulled a lot of car engines that way. The issue would be clearing the transom so you are pulling directly up.
    Sure. But I also want the ability to get boats off of trailers, and turn them over for painting, and that sort of thing. Which makes a gantry crane really attractive. But maybe I don't need to create a big project just to accomplish a small one.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Could you use the dingy davit? Lift off of Whirlwind and onto the deck, turn the boat around, then lift off the deck and onto a suitable rolling cart on the dock.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    When I was a kid, we took the OB motor off the boat as follows: put the motor down, loosen the motor clamps, lift the tongue of the trailer up so the end of the motor was resting on the floor, and then lift some more so we could ease the motor off the transom and then flop the motor into a wheel barrow
    What's not on a boat costs nothing, weighs nothing, and can't break

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Could you use the dingy davit? Lift off of Whirlwind and onto the deck, turn the boat around, then lift off the deck and onto a suitable rolling cart on the dock.
    You know, I did think about that. But there are some challenges. For one, the Whirlwind is no longer in the water, it's sitting on a trailer in our driveway. And I also have visions of the motor slipping and plunging through the bottom of the boat, or making a huge dent in the deck, or simply vanishing into the depths. So I thought the better of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    When I was a kid, we took the OB motor off the boat as follows: put the motor down, loosen the motor clamps, lift the tongue of the trailer up so the end of the motor was resting on the floor, and then lift some more so we could ease the motor off the transom and then flop the motor into a wheel barrow
    Now that idea is... intriguing. I can see it working. I can also see it going very badly. Like hospital visit badly. And I can just imagine the look on my wife's face when I ask her for a ride to the ER because I dropped the Evinrude on my foot. No thanks. I've already dragged her into the ER for, let's see... Broken ankle, falling off a ladder working on Perihelion. Broken wrist, hit by a car while bicycling. Blacked out due to dehydration, bicycling again. I suspect I'm forgetting a few visits in there. So no, a nice hoist or a gantry of some sort seems like the safer option!
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Time to 'phone a friend' to help you lift the outboard off the transom, Chris - Think safety in numbers.





    Rick

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Chris a less grand way to lift moderate loads is with a hand hydraulic "shop crane". Some of em fold for storage, they pretty much all have wheels...CL for a used one, NAPA, Grainger, etc. for a new one. Used under 200, new maybe 400, depending on capacity.
    Brian

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye54 View Post
    Time to 'phone a friend' to help you lift the outboard off the transom, Chris - Think safety in numbers.
    Sadly, all my friends seem to be virtual these days. The ones I could tap for a heavy lifting project all moved out of Seattle. Not really fair to ask someone to take a ferry and drive 45 minutes to wrestle with heavy things, even if there is beer and pizza involved. I end up trying to find ways to do things by myself more often than not. (One might say that I should make some new friends, which, true, but then COVID so...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatsbgood View Post
    Chris a less grand way to lift moderate loads is with a hand hydraulic "shop crane". Some of em fold for storage, they pretty much all have wheels...CL for a used one, NAPA, Grainger, etc. for a new one. Used under 200, new maybe 400, depending on capacity.
    Brian
    Yes, that's what I was thinking as well. I will probably buy one of these:

    https://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-...ane-69514.html

    I have a bunch of projects that one of those would be useful for. I used to have one but I sold it in a fit of downsizing a few years ago. Time to get another I guess.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Thanks for putting all this up Chris, it's a really interesting thought experiment and I agree with your view on that what we do is only a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to emissions but it's a mind change that is needed in general.

    As a different set up, I was doing come cover work on a 16ft gentleman's cruiser for a customer, it's at 1970's build and still has it's original 60hp outboard engine. It was an early electrical gear switch and had many issues back in the day.
    Their solution was to add an addition "auxiliary" engine. basically a small 5hp on a bracket on the stb side of the transom.
    The boat is currently owned by the builders grandson and he has many memories of getting home slowly using the back up engine.
    I really wish I had a photo of the setup but I don't.

    Could you do something similar? say out your 9.9 or 15hp in the middle of the transom (I know a lot of 15hp two strokes used the same block as a 9.9 but used different carbs, not sure about a 4 stroke) and add the smaller EP carry off to the side?
    Then you can use the small EP for small trips when it allows and have the bigger outboard when you need it? It would a similar set up to the electric trolling motors a lot if fishing boat use.
    I guess the downside is the weight penalty, but would removing the batteries be an option?

    It is a compromise in terms of the end goal but might give you the best of both world for the time being until the electric outboards and batteries catch up.

    Thanks again!

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    Default Re: Skookum Maru

    Quote Originally Posted by James Chilman View Post
    Thanks for putting all this up Chris, it's a really interesting thought experiment and I agree with your view on that what we do is only a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to emissions but it's a mind change that is needed in general.

    As a different set up, I was doing come cover work on a 16ft gentleman's cruiser for a customer, it's at 1970's build and still has it's original 60hp outboard engine. It was an early electrical gear switch and had many issues back in the day.
    Their solution was to add an addition "auxiliary" engine. basically a small 5hp on a bracket on the stb side of the transom.
    The boat is currently owned by the builders grandson and he has many memories of getting home slowly using the back up engine.
    I really wish I had a photo of the setup but I don't.

    Could you do something similar? say out your 9.9 or 15hp in the middle of the transom (I know a lot of 15hp two strokes used the same block as a 9.9 but used different carbs, not sure about a 4 stroke) and add the smaller EP carry off to the side?
    Then you can use the small EP for small trips when it allows and have the bigger outboard when you need it? It would a similar set up to the electric trolling motors a lot if fishing boat use.
    I guess the downside is the weight penalty, but would removing the batteries be an option?

    It is a compromise in terms of the end goal but might give you the best of both world for the time being until the electric outboards and batteries catch up.

    Thanks again!
    Hey, now that's an interesting idea! I've seen the big/little setup many times but somehow it never occurred to me that it might be workable as a hybrid gas/electric boat. There would be a weight penalty for toting the gas motor and fuel around, but using the electric for in-harbor (which would be most of the time) and the gas motor for occasional longer trips seems like a good compromise. I think you have captured both the challenge, that we are ahead of the technology curve, and a reasonable solution.

    I'm going to keep going with the project to set up the Whirlwind (which needs a name...) as a solar/electric boat. That would need to be done anyway. But I'm going to keep the hybrid setup in mind as an option as well. Also, yes, typically four stroke 9.9hp and 15hp motors use the same basic power head (the Honda definitely does), and in theory the 9.9 can be upgraded. But probably easier to just buy the 15hp to begin with.

    As for a name. I'd love to name the Whirlwind "Hyak", which is Chinook jargon for swift just as Skookum is Chinook for strong. But it would have to actually *be* swift for the name to fit...
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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