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Thread: Query into the nature of right and wrong

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    I have now.

    tumblebug, dung beetle, cockroach, articulated scraper, right and wrong, Honolulu, Hawaii.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    You're writing another song eh?

    Also known as a Fresno, they can be pulled by a cable winch to level ground on a side hill where you could never operate a tractor.
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 03-14-2019 at 09:45 PM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Is it moral to call people cockroaches?.


    Oh, bobbys, you never answer questions, simply because they are posed to you.

    So why do you ask them?

    The list of questions that you have not answered is long, very long.

    So why do you ask them?
    bccphalarope(dot)com

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Consider Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary.
    "The future is already here it's just not very evenly distributed." William Gibson

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quotes;


    Sweater, n.: garment worn by child when its mother is feeling chilly.



    Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.



    Love: A temporary insanity curable by marriage.



    Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.



    A cynic is a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, and not as they ought to be.


  6. #41
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    I have now.

    tumblebug, dung beetle, cockroach, articulated scraper, right and wrong, Honolulu, Hawaii.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    You're writing another song eh?
    There's some pretty interesting rhythms in that. . .

    Brings this to mind:

    Rattling the teacups.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Accident, n. An inevitable occurrence due to the action of immutable natural laws.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Dunno. I have real trouble with the various schools of thought which place "happiness" as the greatest good. Whether that's Plato's version, or Mill's utilitarianism, or the "pursuit of" in the American patriotic lexicon. Happiness is a byproduct, IMO. And to that degree, I'll sidle closer to Plato than the others, because of his notion that happiness depends on the acquisition of virtue and will.
    As would I.

    One philosopher I've found useful is Henri Bergson, via Minkowski.

    The concept of elan vita which I read as 'life force'. Lots of Eastern religious traditions and thinkers who say similar things.

    My view of Good and Evil boils down to that which enhances and forwards that life force... and that which stunts and perverts it. Love/Hate. Aid/Hindrance. Joy/Anger. Acceptance/Judgement. Generosity/Stinginess. It has many facets.

    I can't think of any of the philosophers who are important to me specifically addressing national borders, but they might have.
    David G
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    We are all tribal, it just depends on the size and diversity of the tribe. Self, family, nation, religion, political loyalties, ethnicity, football team. There will always be 'the other' and such divisions as instanced by the NZ tragedy are often played up for political and electoral reasons.
    I do not believe that right and wrong are completely subjective in a sentient animal such as us, but history and life experience indicates I may be wrong, and it really depends on ones personal ethics.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 03-15-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    The path to enlightenment in many traditions is a growing recognition of oneness.

    I experience the path as a series of simple steps, starting with the youthful recognition that every other person percieves themselves as central in their own cosmos.

    The deepest antipathies remaining in me are for those who set themselves and theirs apart, usually by dismissing or denigrating others, others being defined simply by distance, physical appearance, or artificial and temporary human constructs.

    But while I battle rhetorically with such people, I am also aware that we are part of the same organism. The struggle might as well be with a part of myself. I am shocked and ashamed at times by my cruelty.

    This is not new age mumbo jumbo. I'm pretty sure about this.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    The path to enlightenment in many traditions is a growing recognition of oneness.

    I experience the path as a series of simple steps, starting with the youthful recognition that every other person percieves themselves as central in their own cosmos.

    The deepest antipathies remaining in me are for those who set themselves and theirs apart, usually by dismissing or denigrating others, others being defined simply by distance, physical appearance, or artificial and temporary human constructs.

    But while I battle rhetorically with such people, I am also aware that we are part of the same organism. The struggle might as well be with a part of myself. I am shocked and ashamed at times by my cruelty.

    This is not new age mumbo jumbo. I'm pretty sure about this.
    See? Next they'll call you SNAG...

    Still, I am you, and you are me.

    It is a difficult path.

    Peace,
    One

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    See? Next they'll call you SNAG...

    Still, I am you, and you are me.

    It is a difficult path.

    Peace,
    One
    And... 'Thou art God' -- Michael Smith
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    And... 'Thou art God' -- Michael Smith
    Nurp. But thanks. Good book. Sorta...

    Peace,
    Robert

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    If we all realized that we "were" each other, perhaps we'd shower more.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post

    It is a difficult path.
    Especially when we do awful things to one another.

    The o.p. was prompted by the observation that notions of national citizenship and physical borders are artificial and temporary divisions. They are expedient for maintaining order, which order is often pragmatically beneficial to people only on one side of the definitions.

    We have legal rules to maintain that order, and these rules are often confused with moral dictums. My point is that, to find such dictums, if they are to be found at all, one needs to reach far away from the usual sources for moral guidance.

    If one lets go of the (practically unsupported) notion that the legal rules around borders and nationality are moral in nature, a humane and circumspect approach, marked by application of universally supported moral imperatives, acknowledging each individual as a part of the body separated only for the purposes of maintaining a particular order, would have to follow.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post

    If one lets go of the (practically unsupported) notion that the legal rules around borders and nationality are moral in nature, a humane and circumspect approach, marked by application of universally supported moral imperatives, acknowledging each individual as a part of the body separated only for the purposes of maintaining a particular order, would have to follow.
    Yes. It is imperative that those placed in authority, charged with enforcing those expedient laws and rules, do so in accordance with the Golden Rule. Something that some public servants of the US fail abysmally at doing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    ...If one lets go of the (practically unsupported) notion that the legal rules around borders and nationality are moral in nature, a humane and circumspect approach, marked by application of universally supported moral imperatives, acknowledging each individual as a part of the body separated only for the purposes of maintaining a particular order, would have to follow.
    You're sounding a bit like St. Paul there. I think it's a set of ideas worth exploring, but the kicker is precisely the "universally supported moral imperatives" bit. That's what our species has yet to develop, though various have posited that were we to face a common threat (say, an invasion of space aliens), we'd discover it. I wonder whether global ecological crisis might be a somewhat more likely and proximate prompt.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Especially when we do awful things to one another.

    The o.p. was prompted by the observation that notions of national citizenship and physical borders are artificial and temporary divisions. They are expedient for maintaining order, which order is often pragmatically beneficial to people only on one side of the definitions.

    We have legal rules to maintain that order, and these rules are often confused with moral dictums. My point is that, to find such dictums, if they are to be found at all, one needs to reach far away from the usual sources for moral guidance.

    If one lets go of the (practically unsupported) notion that the legal rules around borders and nationality are moral in nature, a humane and circumspect approach, marked by application of universally supported moral imperatives, acknowledging each individual as a part of the body separated only for the purposes of maintaining a particular order, would have to follow.
    Haha. One day, Lee, when we meet in person, I'll tell you a tale that will curl your toes. It involves me, and some folks what perpetrated nastiness and evil against me. And, how those folks continue to inhabit my world, continue to be loved.

    Tough? Tough ain't hurting someone who's wronged you. That's schoolyard, ape-type nonsense.

    Tough is loving them. Recognizing and acknowledging the suffering in THEM, as well as ourselves.

    Rules exist because people don't care about other people. Speed limits, for example. They're for "other people". The "Don't Swim In The Pool With Active Diarrhea" signs on pools didn't go up after the first pool-pooing. The signs went up because people don't care.

    If crime had no punishment, there would be no deterrent.

    We are apes. We are, unfortunately, aware of our own consciousness and mortality, but we're apes. Kill, breed, die. Hoot hoot.

    The rules are hard to follow because they are against our animal nature. It is a struggle to be human, and most folks don't bother.

    Peace,
    Robert

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders?

    Or an essay regarding the morally significant power of the state to determine citizenship based on place of birth?

    We could use a little elucidation here on the pragmatic function of legal codes versus the universal understanding of moral behavior.
    What do you base your idea of morality on?

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes. It is imperative that those placed in authority, charged with enforcing those expedient laws and rules, do so in accordance with the Golden Rule. Something that some public servants of the US fail abysmally at doing.
    Go soak your anti-US sentiment in Brexit.

    Peace,
    Robert

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    What do you base your idea of morality on?
    I will tell you.

    First things first, though. Where was Barack Obama born, bobbys.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Rules are after-the-fact approximations of morality, at best. They exist because it's perilously few folks who ever develop the personal qualities to reliably default towards informed, loving action. Or to put it differently "if you see the Buddha on the road" you're instructed to "kill him" exactly so that the astonishing fresh Enlightenment which enabled you to recognize the Buddha in the first place ... doesn't become a set of practices, obeisances and regulations which smother your rare and transcendent ability to be authentically moral.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Go soak your anti-US sentiment in Brexit.

    Peace,
    Robert
    So, you are OK with separating kids from their parents and loosing track of any paperwork?

    Or this http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ape-of-justice ?

    Then again, is your back pain bad today, leaving you with a short fuse?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So, you are OK with separating kids from their parents and loosing track of any paperwork?

    Or this http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ape-of-justice ?

    Then again, is your back pain bad today, leaving you with a short fuse?
    No. I'm just tired of your constant bashing on the US.

    Then, you come at me, like I'm the one in charge of policy?

    THEN, you come at me about my private life?

    I suppose you aren't worth the bother after all.

    Peace,
    Robert

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Haha. Cilantro is gross? Haha. Mayhaps coriander, then?

    Peace,
    Robert

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Haha. Cilantro is gross? Haha. Mayhaps coriander, then?Peace,Robert
    You say cilantro, I say coriander ... (Dammit, that doesn't scan! Let's call the whole thing off.)
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    You say cilantro, I say coriander ... (Dammit, that doesn't scan! Let's call the whole thing off.)
    I seed what you done there. Very bolt of you.

    Peace,
    Robert

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    No. I'm just tired of your constant bashing on the US.

    Then, you come at me, like I'm the one in charge of policy?

    THEN, you come at me about my private life?

    I suppose you aren't worth the bother after all.

    Peace,
    Robert
    What? Am I not allowed to comment on an international website?
    Am I not allowed to use examples posted by forumites on this website to drive home a point because I am not American?

    Then, you come at me, like I'm the one in charge of policy?
    Who came at whom with your post#55?
    If you cannot recognize an olive branch, an opportunity to pause, reflect and to wind your neck in, I am saddened for you.

    Peace, backatcha.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    I will tell you.

    First things first, though. Where was Barack Obama born, bobbys.
    I did not think you were serious but just wanted to preach to the choir.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    What? Am I not allowed to comment on an international website?
    Am I not allowed to use examples posted by forumites on this website to drive home a point because I am not American?

    Who came at whom with your post#55?
    If you cannot recognize an olive branch, an opportunity to pause, reflect and to wind your neck in, I am saddened for you.

    Peace, backatcha.
    You're allowed to do whatever you'd like. Except pretend.

    And, don't for one moment, attempt to frame me as the one who needs to learn. Your smugness reeks.

    Peace,
    Robert

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    No. I'm just tired of your constant bashing on the US.

    Then, you come at me, like I'm the one in charge of policy?

    THEN, you come at me about my private life?

    I suppose you aren't worth the bother after all.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Ask him how come they took the Falklands from the right full owners.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Ask him how come they took the Falklands from the right full owners.
    Why don't you?

    And, what do I care about what some other government did? I'm surely not going to tee-hee like some schoolboy, and play "gotcha". I have zero control over what another entity did years ago.

    I'm not 7 years old.

    Peace,
    Robert

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Why don't you?

    And, what do I care about what some other government did? I'm surely not going to tee-hee like some schoolboy, and play "gotcha". I have zero control over what another entity did years ago.

    I'm not 7 years old.

    Peace,
    Robert
    I see bobbys is still on with his hypocritical stalking.
    It is no wonder that I do not read any of the Klass Klowns posts.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #70
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    I did not think you were serious but just wanted to preach to the choir.
    No sweat, bobbys, there's no choir, but you were not the intended audience.

    If I were trying to help you understand something, I would get you a coloring book.

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