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Thread: Query into the nature of right and wrong

  1. #1
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    Default Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders?

    Or an essay regarding the morally significant power of the state to determine citizenship based on place of birth?

    We could use a little elucidation here on the pragmatic function of legal codes versus the universal understanding of moral behavior.

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    Cool Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    You're starting to sound like an Attorney, might want to increase your Marijuana intake.
    Keep calm, persistence beats resistance.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders? . . .
    Possibly:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/forumdis...hp?5-The-Bilge
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    I don't talk about this stuff, anymore.

    I'd rather everyone just assume I'm an idiot, rather than go and prove it.

    Peace,
    Fool, Child, Idiot, Dreamer, Etc.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Machiavelli's "The Discourses" go some way to understand the motivations behind the policy advice in "The Prince." Kenneth Waltz' "Man, The State, and War" is a more modern iteration, though Carr's "The Twenty Years' Crisis" is perhaps more erudite. I reject their premises, of course, but they have the virtue of consistency.Michael Walzer's book "Just and Unjust Wars" is much more to my taste - it presumes that morality exists beyond mere pragmatism. It doesn't deal with citizenship by birth, of course, but is incisive about national borders.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders?

    Or an essay regarding the morally significant power of the state to determine citizenship based on place of birth?

    We could use a little elucidation here on the pragmatic function of legal codes versus the universal understanding of moral behavior.
    I doubt that there will be one, the idea is too ancient.
    For example
    The Solway–Tweed line was legally established in 1237 by the Treaty of York between England and Scotland.[2] It remains the border today, with the exception of the Debatable Lands, north of Carlisle, and a small area around Berwick-upon-Tweed, which was taken by England in 1482. It is thus one of the oldest extant borders in the world, although Berwick was not fully annexed into England until 1746, by the Wales and Berwick Act 1746.
    You will just have to fall back on the Golden Rule.
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Berwick is, in its nature, Scottish.

    And should be returned.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Machiavelli's "The Discourses" go some way to understand the motivations behind the policy advice in "The Prince." Kenneth Waltz' "Man, The State, and War" is a more modern iteration, though Carr's "The Twenty Years' Crisis" is perhaps more erudite. I reject their premises, of course, but they have the virtue of consistency.Michael Walzer's book "Just and Unjust Wars" is much more to my taste - it presumes that morality exists beyond mere pragmatism. It doesn't deal with citizenship by birth, of course, but is incisive about national borders.
    You raise a valid point. Maybe we have to start at the beginning.

    Should we concern ourselves with anything other than self interest and the pragmatic promotion of same? (Begging the question of course, in a pluralistic society, whose "self interest"?)

    Is the right behavior with regard to, for instance, the immigration status of an individual human being, defined by our legal code? Or is there some other authority or form of judgment that should be exercised?

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    The simple answer is there is no answer.

    It is all made up. Morality? Tell that to the Sun.

    Me ape. Hoot hoot. Me eat food, make more ape, die. Hoot hoot.

    The rest is all made up. Good? Bad? Perspective, and invention.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    "To what or to whom does one owe one's more primary loyalty" is the question. To family? To ethnicity? To folks who've sworn a particular oath? To one's self first, or one's species, or ecosphere? If that's too difficult to suss, one can attempt to reverse-engineer one's actual principles by titrating one's observed activities. My particular religious tradition would say that I owe allegiance first to God, and that the way one should be able to derive that is by observing how I treat "the least of these," whoever (or whatever) that happens to be in the situation. It is trickier than it first seems, as who (or what) the "least" is a relational matter, and shifts with context.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Well going back a ways we have Hammurabi on the limits of retribution.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Can't read those clay tablets, myself. Granite inscribed by the Finger of God is more durable, after all.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    "Mein Kampf"
    "Many a time freedom has been rolled back - and always for the same sorry reason: fear." - Molly Ivins

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    "Mein Kampf"
    Gesundheit.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Well, Plato then... with credit to Socrates.

    "Like most other ancient philosophers, Plato maintains a virtue-based eudaemonistic conception of ethics. That is to say, happiness or well-being is the highest aim of moral thought and conduct, and the virtues are the requisite skills and dispositions needed to attain it."
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics/

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Dunno. I have real trouble with the various schools of thought which place "happiness" as the greatest good. Whether that's Plato's version, or Mill's utilitarianism, or the "pursuit of" in the American patriotic lexicon. Happiness is a byproduct, IMO. And to that degree, I'll sidle closer to Plato than the others, because of his notion that happiness depends on the acquisition of virtue and will.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Plato.

    Hehehe.

    Peace,
    One

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    You raise a valid point. Maybe we have to start at the beginning.

    Should we concern ourselves with anything other than self interest and the pragmatic promotion of same? (Begging the question of course, in a pluralistic society, whose "self interest"?)
    Cicero wrote "A Practical Code Of Behavior" (Book 3 of "Duties"). He discusses the proposition that nothing can be in your interest that isn't right.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Is the right behavior with regard to, for instance, the immigration status of an individual human being, defined by our legal code? Or is there some other authority or form of judgment that should be exercised?
    From ancient times, Zeus is the guardian of travelers, guests, refugees, asylum seekers, etc. Once he left Troy, it was an issue at every place Odysseus went. Monsters and evil men recognize no duty toward travelers. OTOH, if you take in a refugee condemned by some other god, that god may punish you for doing as Zeus commands. So sometimes, you can't win. Odysseus blinded the cyclops, Poseidon condemned Odysseus for it; later, when the Phaeacians helped Odysseus, Poseidon punished them for it. See "Xenia".

    So from ancient times, putting aside cases in which some god took a special interest, anyone claiming status as an immigrant would have to be considered a guest, which implied some fairly specific duties on the part of the guest and the host. Gods were said to be fond of appearing in disguise as poor travelers , so as to find out if the people receiving them were A holes.

    Most pre-industrial societies had this concept in some degree. Industrial society has not entirely killed it off.

    If there is law creating a status, the law says what behavior is required towards a person of that status. It if doesn't say you can treat them differently, you can't.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    You raise a valid point. Maybe we have to start at the beginning.

    Should we concern ourselves with anything other than self interest and the pragmatic promotion of same? (Begging the question of course, in a pluralistic society, whose "self interest"?)

    Is the right behavior with regard to, for instance, the immigration status of an individual human being, defined by our legal code? Or is there some other authority or form of judgment that should be exercised?
    If you'd like the story of a somene who decided it was not the right behavior, you might enjoy 'Goatwalking'.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    "To what or to whom does one owe one's more primary loyalty" is the question. To family? To ethnicity? To folks who've sworn a particular oath? To one's self first, or one's species, or ecosphere?
    My favourite novelist tackles this question, in the context of a sensational trial in 1540s Scotland. It's one of the better parts of an outstanding book, her first in fact.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Would it be better to put it into terms of just and unjust rather than right or wrong?

    we know instinctively what is just from our learned code of behavior. We also know when something is unjust. It is by moral obligation that we not only note unjust behaviors and laws but must openly oppose the unjust.
    A large nose is the mark of a witty, courteous, affable, generous and liberal man. My feature suggests an excellent side kick of good index.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders?

    Or an essay regarding the morally significant power of the state to determine citizenship based on place of birth?

    We could use a little elucidation here on the pragmatic function of legal codes versus the universal understanding of moral behavior.
    Border practices are fluid and evolve with our understanding of the world, but I do think we can find guidance for our decisions.

    If you are referring to our southern border with Mexico, you might consider Matthew 25:35, "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,..."

    If you are considering how Canada treats it's southern border, the phrase "Suffer fools gladly" comes to mind. I don't think that one's in the Bible.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    The simple answer is there is no answer.

    It is all made up. Morality? Tell that to the Sun.

    Me ape. Hoot hoot. Me eat food, make more ape, die. Hoot hoot.

    The rest is all made up. Good? Bad? Perspective, and invention.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Bingo, amigo!

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Interesting mini-essay Osbourne, thanks.

    "...if it doesn't say you can treat them differently, you can't". And being in this country without proper imprimature of the Federal government is a misdemeanor. A misdemeanor offense is not enough to hold someone indefinitely, or to exact punishment without trial. That is the law. And something to consider, if you are fond of thinking, "the law's the law!"

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    b
    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Dunno. I have real trouble with the various schools of thought which place "happiness" as the greatest good. Whether that's Plato's version, or Mill's utilitarianism, or the "pursuit of" in the American patriotic lexicon. Happiness is a byproduct, IMO. And to that degree, I'll sidle closer to Plato than the others, because of his notion that happiness depends on the acquisition of virtue and will.
    Me, too.

    Of course, the definition of happiness might vary, semantically. But the popular definitions simply cannot be the basis of Right behavior.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Nietzsche - 'On the geneology of morality' puts it into a modern (last 2000 years) perspective.
    He does see it as pragmatic.
    It's also a quirky romping read. All his eccentricity seems laid bare.
    (I think it is an insight of genius).

    When dealing with politics a pragmatic approach is desireable as you suggest.
    Brings to mind the academic funny; "Sure it works in practice, but will it work in theory?"
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Some people are really happy when they are burning others at the stake...
    And although you and I might conduct ourselves differently, right and wrong are human constructs, and in the larger scheme of say geologic time, mean nothing.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Some people are really happy when they are burning others at the stake...
    And although you and I might conduct ourselves differently, right and wrong are human constructs, and in the larger scheme of say geologic time, mean nothing.
    The Laws of Man, I would argue, mean even less.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Can somebody point me to the text--moral, philosophical, spiritual, religious, what-have-you--in which a highly-regarded thinker, philosopher, prophet, what-have-you, outlines the Right and Wrong behaviors with regard to national borders?

    Or an essay regarding the morally significant power of the state to determine citizenship based on place of birth?

    We could use a little elucidation here on the pragmatic function of legal codes versus the universal understanding of moral behavior.
    Is it moral to call people cockroaches?.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Is it moral to call people cockroaches?.
    Is ot moral to question the birthplace of the 44th POTUS.

    Can you give us a word, bobbys. Anything other than the usual pathetic mewling.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Is it moral to call people cockroaches?.
    Moral has nothing to do with it, Cockroaches have a leg up.

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    The Laws of Man, I would argue, mean even less.
    Yes, I didn't really articulate that very well...

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Yes, I didn't really articulate that very well...
    you're scraping along alright

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    Default Re: Query into the nature of right and wrong

    Have ever seen a Tumblebug?

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