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Thread: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thx all for watching. I appreciate your following along!

    Alan -- I am hoping for some sort of Delta cruise this summer. Do you have any routes you recommend or a past discussion here I could research?

    Robm -- I have 2 large Anderson bailers. They work when I'm going fast enough. They are like a mascot on my boat. When they're working I feel good. But I don't like the fact that they don't stay down! They pop up in normal conditions. I have experienced this with mini bailers purchased through Duckworks and now with the large bailers purchased by Ronstan. I talked with the company and they helped me upgrade but the upgrade hasn't completely solved the problem { https://youtu.be/PX_1WJ6C7bM?t=20 }

    Jeff -- a block on the floor is in the works. I do have a V Jam cleat I like, and the reason I want to try a floor block is that I think it will make the tacks less weird. The weirdness of the tacks is often because I'm trying to keep tension on the sheet so it doesn't foul on the tiller.

    Tom -- I do want to try some type of tiller lock, thanks for that vid.

    Rgthom -- I use bike lights on the back. No light bar yet. Good idea.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    I attempted a flat water capsize recovery and it went fine, but I'm worried about doing the same test in the chop near the Cal Sailing Club. The Club has a skiff and they'd support me if I was struggling. Is this just totally normal and I should go for it? Or is this type of boat inherently difficult to deal with once capsized in waves and wind? I am scared to find out!



    Lillistone writes:

    1. Because she was designed for cruising rather than racing, I wanted her to be self-rescuing rather than self-draining as in a Laser etc. The reason is that a boat that floats high on her side can sometimes blow away from people in the water, and with hull high in the water, the mast points down at the surface at an angle and is more likely to sink and let the boat turn-turtle;
    2. I use wooden spars wich float like outriggers in a capsise, particularly with the hull sitting about halfway into the water supported by the fore and aft tanks."




    In my case I use hollow carbon spars which are even more buoyant than wood. I can see what he means by the spars acting like outriggers when the boat is on its side. I feel like there's plenty of time for me to get around to the centerboard and no danger of it going turtle. It's also really easy to right.

    The issue is that it scoops up a lot of water and I don't know if it would be possible to bail in the chop faster than the next wave can dump more in. I need to find out. I want to find out. I'm scared I'll capsize multiple times because the boat is very unstable when it's swamped. I plan to use my anchor to prevent drifting to the rocks. I guess I'll let out the normal amount of rode.

    Any other tips or feedback? I also plan to have a radio with me but when they're wet I imagine the quality is low. Thanks, Paul

  3. #178
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Alan -- I am hoping for some sort of Delta cruise this summer. Do you have any routes you recommend or a past discussion here I could research?
    Here's one from a while ago: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...amping-rowboat
    This year we depart Korth's on Monday, June 14. You are welcome to join in.
    -Rick

  4. #179
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Most of the whole waterway is open to you because you can row the boat, at least for a mile or two, and you can pull down the mast to get under all but the very lowest bridges.
    You might take a look at this video..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asxDgYYuK6o

    Your boat is more capable than that Escape dinghy. Get yourself some dry bags and those screw-top 5-gallon bucket lids, and go. The thing to keep in mind is that sailing from the main Bay UP into the Delta is more or less a downwind ride. It can get pretty darned windy in through Benicia, Martinez and so on. Once you get another 10 miles in, then the wind eases up. That means that coming BACK can be a challenge. Most people in bigger boats use the engine a LOT for about 20 miles, until they're past the Carquinez Bridge. With your setup I would be tempted to launch in Berkeley, but have a buddy or the Mrs. take your bike home. Then sail up to the Delta. On the way back, arrange for a pickup, maybe in Antioch or something, to avoid the worst of the "blasting to windward" uncomfortable-ness. This is assuming that you have a trailer...non-bike trailer....setup for the boat.

    Day One...Berkeley to Point San Pablo, much like in the video above.
    Day Two... Point San Pablo to Benicia
    Day Three .... Benicia to either Big Break, or if you wanted to stay in the main river...Owl Harbor.

    If you went to Big Break you might be aiming for the South Delta. If you went to Owl Harbor you might be thinking North Delta. There's a public park just north of the Tower Park Marina, under the bridge that has a dozen small public docks, or you can anchor out in the Tules.

    TONS of p aces to go.....but I've never actually been to any of them by boat!

    Id say

    Big Break is a good place to visit. I've been in the Big Break Marina and it's funky but I like it. Owl Harbor, which is right on the San Joaquin River is a nice Marina. I'd be tempted to head up the Mokolumne River. I hear dicey things about Tower Park Marina management... Herman and Helens Marina is closed.

    I'd just have a supply of dry bags, a little danforth-type anchor with 75 feet of rode, and a nylon tarp to put over the boat...maybe with some bent camping-tent poles in place to hold it up. Sew in some sleeves for the poles to go through. Add your backpacking stove and some food and you're set.

  5. #180
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Alan, Thanks for the details and encouragement, and thx Rick for the cool invite. Maybe?!

    I liked that BlakeWiers video a lot. Very helpful.

    I have been hard at work on a boom tent. Here's a pic. Standing height! But it also has a 'storm mode'
    IMG_1321.jpg

    What about getting to Sacramento itself, is that acheivable? Does one sail up the river the whole way?


    Paul
    Last edited by fossilfool; 06-02-2021 at 11:34 PM.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing



    Hi sailors, some great downwind footage, a rescue, and a project update on my goal to cruise the First Mod.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks for posting--I really enjoy following along. A few thoughts:

    1. In the opening downwind footage, those are some pretty serious conditions for a small open boat. It doesn't necessarily seem that way from the tiller, because it feels like a high-speed fun sleigh ride, and you don't necessarily notice the wind strength when you're going downwind. But I definitely would have had the second reef in for that. Easier said than done, I know, when you're already out there sailing. But reefing down further won't typically cost you any speed, and it makes things more manageable for sure. In my boat, I'd have been triple reefed. Heck, even a small triangular storm sail would be enough. I guess the Bay area deserves its reputation for big winds! It's fun to see someone exploring the boundaries of what's possible. But you are REALLY flying along--another reef (or two) would be sensible, I think.

    2. For capsize recovery: it looks like the main issue is the amount of water taken on board. Anything you can do to reduce that volume, and the sloshing effect of all that water in an open space, will make you safer. Buoyancy bags under the benches are one option. In my boat, I keep large duffel-style dry bags lashed in when cruising to pack gear in. This works really well to reduce the amount of water my boat takes on in a capsize, and also dramatically reduces the sloshing around. An empty or near-empty boat, I think, would be very challenging to self-rescue in the conditions needed to capsize it in the first place.

    3. I mentioned a tiller tamer in an earlier post. Even in conditions like the beginning of your video, where you mostly want your hand on the tiller and sheet, the ability to let go for a moment now and then can be a big safety feature and convenience.

    4. Looks like your boat handled the tow pretty well. I do wonder if it might be wise to have a turn or two around a cleat or samson post rather than tied off--you want to be able to cast off yourself quickly if things start to go bad. I think most power boaters typically tow too fast for sailboats to manage safely. No one, including the Coast Guard, understands anything at all about small sailboats.

    Anyway, thanks for putting these videos out there. People (including me) will be learning from what you post. Good luck as you continue your adventures!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  8. #183
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Nice video, that looked like some pretty wild sailing!

    I'll be very interested to see what you do regarding a motor. I've been thinking along the same lines that I might like to make some decent progress when the wind dies, or to speed things up if the weather is getting worse. Whiskeyfox and rgthom have some experiments with electric motors have been good reading.

    Apparently you can get some surprisingly legit high capacity LiFePo4 cells from Aliexpress. Look up "DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse" on Youtube and you'll see his tests on homemade 280Ah 12V batteries.

    Are you thinking an outboard setup? Or putting the motor in a well? I've been considering how a 4" wide "daggerboard" slot for the motor on the side of the centerboard trunk would work. A motor on the transom isn't good for trim, and pivoting it up looks like it would just be in the way.

    Good luck on your boom tent too!

  9. #184
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Thanks for posting--I really enjoy following along. A few thoughts:

    1. In the opening downwind footage, those are some pretty serious conditions for a small open boat. It doesn't necessarily seem that way from the tiller, because it feels like a high-speed fun sleigh ride, and you don't necessarily notice the wind strength when you're going downwind. But I definitely would have had the second reef in for that. Easier said than done, I know, when you're already out there sailing. But reefing down further won't typically cost you any speed, and it makes things more manageable for sure. In my boat, I'd have been triple reefed. Heck, even a small triangular storm sail would be enough. I guess the Bay area deserves its reputation for big winds! It's fun to see someone exploring the boundaries of what's possible. But you are REALLY flying along--another reef (or two) would be sensible, I think.
    I mispoke in the vid and that was a double reef. I had one more I could have tried. I want to try going down to the smallest reef if it's like that again. I want to try your suggestions like the tiller tamer. Working through my list. Thx for staying in touch.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jeff View Post
    Nice video, that looked like some pretty wild sailing!

    I'll be very interested to see what you do regarding a motor. I've been thinking along the same lines that I might like to make some decent progress when the wind dies, or to speed things up if the weather is getting worse. Whiskeyfox and rgthom have some experiments with electric motors have been good reading.

    Apparently you can get some surprisingly legit high capacity LiFePo4 cells from Aliexpress. Look up "DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse" on Youtube and you'll see his tests on homemade 280Ah 12V batteries.

    Are you thinking an outboard setup? Or putting the motor in a well? I've been considering how a 4" wide "daggerboard" slot for the motor on the side of the centerboard trunk would work. A motor on the transom isn't good for trim, and pivoting it up looks like it would just be in the way.

    Good luck on your boom tent too!

    Hi Jeff, thx for watching . I'm only interested in an outboard clamped on the transom. My business is a dealer for GRIN Technologies (electric bike motors). They have a good YouTube channel, which lately includes the founder Justin Lemore's inventions in the realm of electric sailboat conversions. I have been asking his advice on how to proceed. I was aware of that DIY solar channel. It's good. I think I will use the same kind of 52V batteries we get direct from China for electric bike builds. They have been very impressive in terms of Watts/pound when biking to the water and other electric bike rides.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! (Horshack reference) Let us know what you come up with. I may be acquiring some sort of small propulsion unit in the future.

    https://youtu.be/Pb3i_dQV_pI
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    I mispoke in the vid and that was a double reef. I had one more I could have tried. I want to try going down to the smallest reef if it's like that again. I want to try your suggestions like the tiller tamer. Working through my list. Thx for staying in touch.
    That makes sense--I saw there was still one more reef not tied in from the video. I think I would definitely have had that last reef tied in under those conditions. Pretty gnarly, it looked like to me.

    My brother's Phoenix III has a final deep reef that essentially turns the lugsail into a lateen--cuts off the luff entirely. We've used in. You can't go to windward, but for offwind work it's all the sail you need sometimes.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks for posting the video! As a fellow SF Bay Dinghy sailor, I feel you've done me a service: on future summer afternoons as I stand ashore, gazing at the bay and wondering why I'm not out there, I'll reflect on your rescue and realize I have my answer.
    I'll share the rest of this despite the risk of seeming a scold and in the spirit of learning together. From my perspective you are both overthinking and under thinking the conditions here.
    Overthinking: You've mentioned planing around the forecast from a prediction app (I think Windy) and from google. I find both to be accurate in broad strokes but not useful this time of year. Instead I just assume that every afternoon from June through early September will be screamingly windy. I still check the weather, but I don't really trust anything moderate, and I'm almost always right. This is not to say the bay is closed for the season but instead to point out that you shouldn't be surprised by those conditions at that time.
    Under thinking: I reckon you are still processing the ramifications of the rescue. I haven't yet heard you acknowledge the danger you were in and the decisions that led you there. A capsize here in our cold water can kill you if you're not dressed for immersion, and the conditions you were in will likely capsize you. What needs to happen so that your future cruises don't require expensive rescues from dangerous conditions?
    I think your project is great and appreciate the videos you post. I'm writing this as someone who would like to see you stay alive, and who is grateful to learn from your experience.

    - James

  14. #189
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    I should also add I give you a lot of credit for conducting capsize tests- way too many sailors don't. If you had been dressed for extended immersion I wouldn't have written any judgement of you at all.

    -James

  15. #190
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    A note on electric propulsion: I would encourage you to mock up and try cheap versions of whatever you're planning. I put a 36 lb electric trolling motor on my dingy and have been generally pleased with it for low-wind use. I have also been impressed by how useless it would be in rough conditions. The maximum thrust on this admittedly small motor will barely allow headway into a breeze. Just as significantly, the propeller spends an astonishing amount of time out of the water in any kind of chop or swell, and the clamp that holds it on my motor mount inspires no confidence. I would also love a way to store it ready for use while I'm sailing; even tilted up, it snags my mainsheet traveler and can drag when heeled. These all seem like problems you can solve, so I'm excited to see what you do!
    Here's a great post on this which sadly seems to have lost its images: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Electric-Power

    James

  16. #191
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks for that video. This kind of thing is partly why I have not taken to sailing. I would be terrified of conditions like that unless very well practiced and skilled, and I do not have the time to get good at it. I do row on the Bay, though, at times in similar wind and waves. What would have happened if you had dropped the rig and rowed? You say on the video that you want a motor just to get to shore in a bad chance, rowing is a slog in those conditions but you can make progress and capsizing is unlikely if the waves are not breaking.

    Your boat is fully open, mine is similar size but decked and has a coaming. I think that is a big help, if the bow punches into a wave it won't flood the boat. A buddy and I used to row a big open wooden double in races on the bay, we sank it once in big waves. He put a fabric deck over the bow with flotation bags, that solved the problem.

    If you go with a motor I'm sure you will make your own with some kind of modified hub motor . Let me just say that my recently installed EP Carry electric outboard would probably give you what you want, enough power to go 4 kts for an hour with the stock battery, at a weight of 12 lb for the motor and 6 lb for the battery. Both motor and battery are sealed and saltwater rated, and a LiFePO4 battery is somewhat safer than the higher energy density chemistry I usually see in ebike batteries. This video was posted before from our Delta cruise, but it shows the motor in use in some moderately choppy conditions:



    -Rick

  17. #192
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The EP Carry is an impressive little unit. But, I would love to see what can be cobbled together with e-bike parts.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  18. #193
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Thanks for posting the video! As a fellow SF Bay Dinghy sailor, I feel you've done me a service: on future summer afternoons as I stand ashore, gazing at the bay and wondering why I'm not out there, I'll reflect on your rescue and realize I have my answer.
    I'll share the rest of this despite the risk of seeming a scold and in the spirit of learning together. From my perspective you are both overthinking and under thinking the conditions here.
    Overthinking: You've mentioned planing around the forecast from a prediction app (I think Windy) and from google. I find both to be accurate in broad strokes but not useful this time of year. Instead I just assume that every afternoon from June through early September will be screamingly windy. I still check the weather, but I don't really trust anything moderate, and I'm almost always right. This is not to say the bay is closed for the season but instead to point out that you shouldn't be surprised by those conditions at that time.
    Under thinking: I reckon you are still processing the ramifications of the rescue. I haven't yet heard you acknowledge the danger you were in and the decisions that led you there. A capsize here in our cold water can kill you if you're not dressed for immersion, and the conditions you were in will likely capsize you. What needs to happen so that your future cruises don't require expensive rescues from dangerous conditions?
    I think your project is great and appreciate the videos you post. I'm writing this as someone who would like to see you stay alive, and who is grateful to learn from your experience.

    - James
    Hi James,

    Thanks for wanting me to stay alive. I appreciate it. That was the initial motivation for spending 2 years building this boat instead of continuing my bike sailing passion with my Laser-sized Banshee. The larger First Mate with its reefable sail has been way kinder to me and I've felt less scared.

    You're right about not wanting to rely upon rescuers. Recent steps have included more practicing of reefing on the water, and gybing.

    I do acknowledge I was in real danger. I could have ended up in shallows thinking I was getting to safety then been stuck in wind and mud for a long time. I remember my eyes widening as I looked at one particular wave... "They make them that big?" I thought... A sobering fact is that the harbor master could barely hear what I was saying my transmissions and came out of caution. Those were definitely capsizy conditions and righting and bailing solo would have been pretty hard.

  19. #194
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Thanks for that video. This kind of thing is partly why I have not taken to sailing. I would be terrified of conditions like that unless very well practiced and skilled, and I do not have the time to get good at it. I do row on the Bay, though, at times in similar wind and waves. What would have happened if you had dropped the rig and rowed? You say on the video that you want a motor just to get to shore in a bad chance, rowing is a slog in those conditions but you can make progress and capsizing is unlikely if the waves are not breaking.

    Your boat is fully open, mine is similar size but decked and has a coaming. I think that is a big help, if the bow punches into a wave it won't flood the boat. A buddy and I used to row a big open wooden double in races on the bay, we sank it once in big waves. He put a fabric deck over the bow with flotation bags, that solved the problem.

    If you go with a motor I'm sure you will make your own with some kind of modified hub motor . Let me just say that my recently installed EP Carry electric outboard would probably give you what you want, enough power to go 4 kts for an hour with the stock battery, at a weight of 12 lb for the motor and 6 lb for the battery. Both motor and battery are sealed and saltwater rated, and a LiFePO4 battery is somewhat safer than the higher energy density chemistry I usually see in ebike batteries. This video was posted before from our Delta cruise, but it shows the motor in use in some moderately choppy conditions:



    -Rick
    Hi Rick,

    I haven't found rowing that confidence inspiring in wind and chop. The technique is a lot harder and it's hard to stay pointed where you want to go. So far waves over the bow have been minimal, thankfully.

    I am moving slowly on the motor project. Input here has been helpful.

    I had a great gybing lesson from a member of the Cal Sailing Club recently. Need to work on simplifying my reefing system next.

  20. #195
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Hi sailors,

    The latest vid starts with a full Boom Tent update. My asymmetrical standing height boom tent is still highly enjoyable once I set up, and still takes 2 hours to set up. A lot of that time is actually problem solving. I haven't ever set up my boom tent the way you set up an REI tent, when all the problems have been solved for you. That's why it takes 2 hours. I hope that I can get to the point where I have all the problems solved and it's a 15-20 minute job. Not there yet, but some hopeful progress.

    Then there's some fun downwind footage making it back into Berkeley from Richmond with my buddy Jeff. No calamities, but some good planing and one really crappy gybe. As mentioned to Rick I took a gybing lesson after shooting this vid and feel better about the technique now...

    Hope you enjoy the sailing and take some inspiration from the inventing:


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