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Thread: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Side Deck knees now glued in on the starboard side:


    Welded all around the sternsheets, then covered it with a big piece of precut fabric. Planning to leave the texture as is.


    Last edited by fossilfool; 10-20-2019 at 10:03 PM.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    First ride around the block on the First Mod!

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Finastkind.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    That sounds good, thx!

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Órale Holmes!!
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very Cool!

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thank you, glad you like the vid.

    The beautiful translucent pale shade of green of the G10 that I'm hoping to leave unpainted quickly becomes orange / brown within only a month or so of sun exposure. The worst sample below was in the sun 3 months with no protection and the medium one has been in the sun 7 weeks with spray Helmsman spar varnish. The sample on the left had no sun.


    Interestingly the UV damage doesn't seem to affect the integrity of the material, at least not in this period of time. The samples were all similarly strong and flexible; I was able to flex them the long way until my hands touched.

    The next product I am trying is Interlux Perfection 2 part clear coat.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 06-17-2019 at 11:57 AM.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The latest on the First Mod is that I'm choosing between 1/16" G10 and 1/4" Marine plywood for the decks. I'm leaning toward the plywood which would mean seeing less of the translucent G10 in the final product. So far I've gone with plywood for both the thwart and the sternsheets (things that people sit on). If I continued that approach, it would look like the port side here:





    The G10 does look cool when left translucent! Of course it won't look as good if it yellows from UV damage (see above in thread).



    And if there's one part of the boat that should be plywood -- from the perspective of UV damage -- it's probably the decks, because they're in direct sun when sailing and they provide partial shade for the hull panels underneath them.

    Overall I'm leaning toward plywood because the boat needs to be strong and plywood will glue better to the carlings and gunwales. But it's hard to let go of that ethereal light green.

    In my experience the epoxy joints between the G10 and wood framing members like carlings haven't been bonding as well as I'd like. When the G10 is 'welded' to the plywood frames with glass cloth the result is very strong. But when it's just clamped to a frame member with thickened epoxy, the results aren't satisfactory. Sometimes they pop off with only moderate prying force.

    In the bow area, the custom hatch would remain G10 but the decking around it would be plywood. You can see a patchy splotchy quality to the gluing between the G10 and the fir perimeter of the hatch. That's the issue I've been mentioning. It peels back until the weld area (the darker sea foam green areas criss crossing the hatch.) I've used syringes to insert epoxy back into these areas once they pop up. The hatch is strong -- I've stood on it.


    Last edited by fossilfool; 06-21-2019 at 12:32 AM.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The wooden boat forum was remarkably quiet on the subject of wood v. G10 for the deck. In the end I didn't need that much convincing. A weak glue up of one section of G10 deck was enough to push me reluctantly towards plywood. I even did some materials testing on different ways to bond wood to G10 and they were all strong enough that the wood ripped before the glue. But the bad result of the first deck section scared me. I didn't know why it had failed and feared it happening again, so I went with plywood for the decks.


    But in the process I found that plywood is way easier to handle and shape. The rounded edge was easy with the flap wheel.



    Now that the bow is decked you can see how the asymmetrical hatch matches up with the curve of the deck.

    Last edited by fossilfool; 12-23-2019 at 03:51 PM.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    ...But in the process I found that plywood is way easier to handle and shape.
    Seems like I remember this being pointed out to you early in the thread...

    I'm looking forward to seeing your boat under sail. A scaled-up First Mate or Phoenix III is an interesting idea. It'll be nice to see what you think of the boat once you're sailing. Good luck with the rest of the build.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Seems like I remember this being pointed out to you early in the thread...

    I'm looking forward to seeing your boat under sail. A scaled-up First Mate or Phoenix III is an interesting idea. It'll be nice to see what you think of the boat once you're sailing. Good luck with the rest of the build.

    Tom
    Thx Tom. The plywood goes so fast and the glue bonds so well with no prep, I got the feeling "wow, this is why people like building boats!"

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    When I used small amounts of G10 in a primarily wooden boat it really needed to be sanded to get some tooth for epoxy bonding. The stuff is just glass filled hard cured epoxy. You only get a good chemical bond to freshly set epoxy (say a day old), but fully cured needs sanding.

    Wood is really a good boatbuilding material: higher stiffness to weight than G10, good UV resistance, takes epoxy and paint well. The G10 wins for rot resistance, that's for sure .

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Bike sailing video with my Banshee (previous boat):


    Key difference is that the trailer for the Banshee is external but in the First Mod, the hull is the trailer.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 06-29-2019 at 12:52 PM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    246 pounds at today's weigh in. Still to come: rudder, centerboard, rig, and other details. Gettin' closer!



    No mods on the outboard well, just following the plans. Lighter would have been skipping it, but I'm curious enough about motoring that I put it in.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Intriguing thread. I have had thoughts of a canoe tow with a bike before, this is next level. But now I've gone off on one and started dreaming up a pedal paddle peapod with a reclining bike built into it... rear wheel is also paddle wheel and front wheel flips back over bow to boat.... Probably needs stabiliser wheels for road though since you wouldn't get your foot down over the side.
    2019: returning from being sidelined with medical probs, crossing fingers worst is over, still in "armchair enthusiast" mode for time being.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very interesting to watch this come together.subbed...

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks Bertha and Plyboy, I'd like to see a sketch of your idea. When I think tadpole, I think about recumbent trikes with 2 wheels in the front and a single drive wheel in the rear. It sounds like you're talking about a single front wheel.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 07-07-2019 at 02:41 PM.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Been focused on carbon fiber oar making. It's my first hollow carbon fiber shaft. I used carbon sleeves on the parts of the trailer system for the First Mod, but that was carbon over Douglas Fir, not hollow. I'm planning to build up to making a carbon mast by doing less critical parts first: the oars, the boom, and the yard. Then by the time I make the mast I'll have the necessary experience. I've been ordering the sleeving and related parts from Soller Composites and getting good advice from the owner John Soller. With no vacuum bagging I was able to achieve a resin ratio of 44% in the oar shaft.

    I made the tapering shaft over a foam mandrill I shaped with a razor, then removed the mandrill. Next I made a form for the spoon blade. I got really helpful advice on the spoon shape and size from Tom Regan of Grapeview Harbor Boatworks . It's hard to see but it 'spoons' the narrow way and the long way.


    The First Mod has a beam of 68". Tom recommended 9.5' oars but acknowledged that most people go with a shorter than optimal length because of storage. Of course I am interested in things that nest / stack / come apart / convert modes, so I am going with a removable handle extension mocked up approximately below. The longer part with the blade fits well in the boat!


    Oar process: I made the front half of the spoon blade, then made a foam rib, then did the back half over the rib.





    Below: Hatch lid for the rear buoyancy. The glossy perimeter on the lid shows how I pressed it down wet into the packing tape for a good seal.


    Last edited by fossilfool; 07-20-2019 at 03:04 PM.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Been slinging some carbon fiber and I'm happy to share the latest and ask how my oar #1 compares to spruce. What you see is a 2-piece carbon oar with a wooden handle, being propped up in an oversized ovalized carbon oarlock and its aluminum socket. The oar (which is not plural yet) measures 9.5' and weighs 55 ounces including extra material for the split apart feature. It has some flex and I may post a video asking if it's a normal amount. About 1/2" deflection over the length of the oar shaft when I push in the middle.




    Below: Up close on the oarlocks. They weigh 4 oz each versus 7 for the Buck Algonquin bronze oarlock.


    The longer part of the split-apart oar stows nicely under the deck.


    Here is the intended placement. Does it look about right to you in terms of the where the handle sits?
    Last edited by fossilfool; 07-29-2019 at 05:50 PM.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    If your handle runs close to the centerline like that, you might find your thumbs pinch together as they pass each other. Something to try out when you have both oars. I often wrap my thumbs over the end of the handle to avoid overgripping the handles--just have the fingers curled over the handle, no thumb involved in the grip.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thx Tom,

    I'll post another pic after I make the second oar.

    Paul

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Still doing lots of carbon fiber work in preparation for making a carbon mast. Here's the process and result of the carbon fiber mast partner:











  23. #93
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Just found this thread. I really appreciate all the ingenuity that’s gone into it. Kind of reminds me of a a good Hong Kong action movie. Take a concept, no matter how outlandish, and commit to it 100%. Please take that as a compliment.

    About four years ago I built a dinghy to tow behind my bike to lake where I keep my sailboat. I ended up with a solution similar to yours with the wheels but I was lucky enough to be able to run a straight tube to take the wheel receivers. Came in at 45# and it gets regular use all summer.

    C6BE84E5-9369-4855-B674-F4F078021A00.jpg

    It’s probably not relevant, but if you have any interest in the details I posted them here,
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghy&highlight=

    Looking forward to more construction details and your first sail.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks! What a cool build. Do you mean that your whole dinghy weighs 45 pounds? That seems incredible if so.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Thanks! What a cool build. Do you mean that your whole dinghy weighs 45 pounds? That seems incredible if so.
    There are ways to build some incredibly light boats, for sure. My current project is a 17’ Kayak that should be sub-40 lbs when I’m finished...
    “You can have peace. Or, you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at once.” RA Heinlein

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Thanks! What a cool build. Do you mean that your whole dinghy weighs 45 pounds? That seems incredible if so.
    The whole dinghy is 45# without wheels. It’s 4mm okoume ply with Spanish cedar trim. I vacuum bagged the thwarts with 3mm ply and nidacore.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitzger View Post
    The whole dinghy is 45# without wheels. It’s 4mm okoume ply with Spanish cedar trim. I vacuum bagged the thwarts with 3mm ply and nidacore.
    That's an awesome result, nice going. I looked up the Glen-L Sabotina and see that their low end of the weight range is 50 lbs and you got it 5lbs lower with your methods. Well done.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Carbon spar making is starting to work out. This is a 2lb boom measuring 11' 8". The sail chosen for my First Mod is the Goat Island Skiff sail made by Really Simple Sails and sold by Duckworks. It was affordable and Ross gave it the OK for my scaled up First Mate. The plans for the GIS call for the boom and yard to be 'quite flexible'. So I went with 3 layers of carbon sleeving and got something with a nice amount of flex. I don't know how hard to push these tests. Should I load it up with twice as much weight? What's shown is only about 20 pounds.

    I do know that the plans for the First Mate say that the boom is optional. This must mean that on a Balance Lug rig the boom isn't the only thing absorbing the force of the wind. The mainsheet must be handling a lot of the load because of the way it passes through a bridle at the aft end of the boat.



    To make the boom I shaped 4 different pink foam mandrel sections and tested 4 different ideas for demolding.



    Some of my demolding strategies worked better than others. Here's a boom segment where I had to cut a long slot in middle of the tube to extract the pink foam. Later I patched it.


    Now moving on to the mast which is a lot easier because the diameter is bigger. But of course it's longer too. I'll be making a nearly 16' mast.

    Again, rather than try to make a single long mandrel, I've been gathering tubes and cylinders around the shop that have usable diameters, and buying mailer tubes to make short segments of progressing diameters to join up soon into a long tapered mast. Here's a smoothed out piece of bamboo almost ready for layup. The bamboo was cool because it had a natural taper that matched the mast plans for one of the upper segments.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 09-09-2019 at 11:58 PM.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    I’ve found this article to be helpful.

    https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php...mposite-tubes/

    I particularly like the technique of laying up a light layer of glass first on a waxed mandrel, slitting it, sliding it and laying the carbon over it. The article explains clearly.

    You can can melt foam out with acetone or lacquer thinner.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing



    Had a sweet rowing launch last eve in flat protected water. Started with my girlfriend and our dog, then welcomed 4 friends and 2 more dogs for a total of 9 souls (over 1000 pounds).

    The other update is that I've now made all the spars for my balanced lug rig. The photo shows the progression from oars on the left to boom, mast, and yard.


    Mast came in at 8.3 pounds.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Amazing. I love the "low tech carbon fiber" approach!

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Cool project...good luck!

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing



    Thx, here's a closer view.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The latest is a carbon fiber centerboard, a part that after installation will only be seen in the event of a capsize, but will save, by my arithmetic, nearly 7 pounds over the marine grade plywood centerboard shown in the plans. Process shots follow. The white stuff in the later shots is epoxy thickened with cabosil and microballoons in order to fill low spots in the "butcher block". Soon I will plane and sand the top surface in order to lay down a single perfect outer sheet of carbon with no ripples or wrinkles.

    Here are the parts I have made in carbon so far, and an estimate of weight savings over the wood version in the plans:
    - split-apart oars & matching oarlocks (4 lbs?)
    - folding bike towing system, which doubles as both boat dock caster and bowsprit (N/A)
    - mast, boom, and yard for Goat Island Skiff balanced lug rig (12-18 lbs)
    - mast partner (1 lb)
    - centerboard in progress below (6-7 lbs)
    ----
    Total benefit of carbon fiber substitutions so far in terms of weight savings: 23-30 pounds!







    Last edited by fossilfool; 10-21-2019 at 02:20 PM.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Carbon for the centerboard makes good sense with your need to save weight--that's a HEAVY board in marine ply. And with the push rod design, it doesn't need to be weighted to stay down. I'm curious to see how it will perform, as I don't know much (anything) about carbon fiber.

    I'm looking forward to your report on your first bike sailing expedition--cheers,

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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