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Thread: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Concept 2 for the trailer system is a diagonal square tube reinforced by the thwart accepting a single strong 'stinger' with the trailer wheel axle socket attached to it. There would be a plug to fit in the hole during sailing. Downside is that there's now a 2" hole in the hull on each side. Benefit is that it's strong and simple. Even if the plug falls out, water won't come into the boat if the tube is sealed at the thwart.

    Last edited by fossilfool; 05-07-2019 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Now planning to create a half frame that both supports both the thwart and locks in the receiver tube for the trailer stingers. The plans show a lower profile timber 'half frame' for the thwart on the forward side. This would fine if the only load was people sitting, but with the stronger twisting force of the trailer wheel I think it needs more support.

    Last edited by fossilfool; 05-07-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The latest is that I created a carbon-over-douglas fir stinger bar, out of which I'll cut two trailer stingers, that will insert into receiver tubes in the hull. I then wrapped the stinger bar in some padding (in white below) with packing tape as a release, then built up 10 layers of Soller Composites carbon sleeving (medium weight) to create a carbon tube with a generous 1/8" wall thickness.



    I cut a 2nd Midships Web Frame to make the Thwart area into a robust box structure. I tacked the carbon receiver tubes to the web frame with 5 minute epoxy, then locked them in with glass.





    Installed and welded to the hull. There's a small gap at the top that I might use for a latch, or just seal. With strong magnets I could seal it and have a waterproof latch of sorts. Trailer wheels will stay in mostly by gravity while rolling. After getting to the dock the wheels and their stingers get removed. At this point I'll plug the receiver tubes with a custom rubber plug so there's no drag from the hole.

    Last edited by fossilfool; 05-07-2019 at 12:51 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Wider view of the Midships Web Box with carbon fiber wheel sockets. The rod resting on top will be cut into the two stingers.


  5. #40
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very neat. As a fellow Bay Area boat builder, I appreciate the design brief you're working toward. Can't wait to hear how she does in the bay! Be careful out there.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thank you. Will keep you posted.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Nice work on the hatch. Will you add some gasket material to make it water tight?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Nice work on the hatch. Will you add some gasket material to make it water tight?
    Thank you. I pressed the hatch lid down on the hatch flange with thickened epoxy (using packing tape as a release). It's an exact fit, like a ground glass chemistry stopper. Not planning to use a gasket. I made a similar hatch on my Banshee and it works well.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Late to the show here. I like bikes and boats and using both together so this is cool.

    I have used G-10 and other garolites as limited structural parts in an otherwise wooden boat. If I saw this from the beginning would probably have discouraged you, the G-10 has such a high weight for the stiffness (and is so expensive), but you had the material and know how to make it work. The 1/16" seems almost like skin on frame, sort of between plank and skin material. That's why it's so flexible between frames, and might need a little more framing.

    My 250 lb wooden skiff carries a bike, I use it for trips on the Bay and Delta where there is a water and land connection between two places. I can row the water part, get on the bike and ride back to the car, then drive back for the boat.

    I did make a wheeled dolly to try towing the boat with the bike. With added gear for a trip the towed weight got well over 300 lb, and I was discouraged at doing this for any significant distance or any hills. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

    This is mine:


    Rick (in Fairfield)

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Late to the show here. I like bikes and boats and using both together so this is cool.

    I have used G-10 and other garolites as limited structural parts in an otherwise wooden boat. If I saw this from the beginning would probably have discouraged you, the G-10 has such a high weight for the stiffness (and is so expensive), but you had the material and know how to make it work. The 1/16" seems almost like skin on frame, sort of between plank and skin material. That's why it's so flexible between frames, and might need a little more framing.

    My 250 lb wooden skiff carries a bike, I use it for trips on the Bay and Delta where there is a water and land connection between two places. I can row the water part, get on the bike and ride back to the car, then drive back for the boat.

    I did make a wheeled dolly to try towing the boat with the bike. With added gear for a trip the towed weight got well over 300 lb, and I was discouraged at doing this for any significant distance or any hills. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

    Rick (in Fairfield)
    Hi Rick, Thanks for sharing your photo. Sweet boat, and it's great you do your own shuttles! Looks like your skiff is primarily or only for rowing? I see the backwards facing seat and it reminds of the Bunny Whaler entry in the Race to Alaska. Ever thought of motorizing your mountain bike with a Bafang mid-drive kit to deal with the weight? I'd love some tips on good sail camping ideas for the Delta. I thought about Sherman Island as a good destination but I'm sure there are many others...

    Meanwhile on my project the focus is on the trailer hitch. Here's the current leading idea:



    Note the use of a swiveling caster as the trailer hitch mechanism. When I arrive at the water, I'll undo the hitch from the bike, then rotate it down till the caster hits the boat ramp. Then I don't have to carry the weight of the boat as I carefully lower the boat towards the water by hand.



    The hitch can also be rotated up to be a bowsprit of sorts and fly a jib, but I'm a ways off from doing that. I want to sail with just the balanced lug first and see how I like that.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 04-21-2019 at 01:14 AM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    i think you might be better off adding a towing eye low down on the stem and designing a hitch that attaches near the axle or chainstay..

    you might already know them, but these guys have the heavy duty bike trailer design pretty well figured out..
    maybe their ideas can be applied to your project ?:

    https://www.bikesatwork.com/

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thx for the link. I do like Bikes At Work's system. With our Mobile Stage at Rock The Bike we've had good results with a hitch point that is forward of the rear axle and just below the top of the rear wheel. Very easy to control. That's what I'm going for:


  13. #48
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Hi Rick, Thanks for sharing your photo. Sweet boat, and it's great you do your own shuttles! Looks like your skiff is primarily or only for rowing? I see the backwards facing seat and it reminds of the Bunny Whaler entry in the Race to Alaska. Ever thought of motorizing your mountain bike with a Bafang mid-drive kit to deal with the weight? I'd love some tips on good sail camping ideas for the Delta. I thought about Sherman Island as a good destination but I'm sure there are many others...
    Funny you should mention Bafang. I did put a BBSHD mid-drive on that red bike, now it is my commuter. I have another standard bike for the boat shuttles. And yes, the Walkabout is built as a camp cruising rowboat. Lots of good spots on the Delta - PM me or forum members Thorne or Canoeyawl (both of them are sailors), or join up on our TSCA outings: https://www.tscasacramento.com/events

    I am very interested in how you will make out launching and retrieving the boat. IME launching boats north of 200 lb off a dolly is tricky. A buddy has a 130 lb rowing double, we use a simple dolly that slides under for short transits. With two of us we can manage it, one lifts the bow at shore edge and the other fits in the dolly. For the skiff, I can do it with several helpers but solo is not easy. Ideally, I think the dolly should have a long arm of some sort than can be staked into a beach, then it is held in place so I can maneuver the boat to an anchor point without the dolly getting away. You seem to have some experience solo launching, would like to see what works.

    BTW, I like the idea of hatches made by close fitting the seal with epoxy. Have to try that someday. Also want to see how you rig the trailer to the folding bike. Mounting up on a rear rack was not so good for me, even with the boat fairly balanced just the swing inertia yanked the bike around a lot.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing



    Created one of the 2 bolting points for the towbar. The other will be on the tip of the bow.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The trailer stingers now have steel sockets to accept the 1-sided push-button quick-release trailer wheel axles.


    I set magnets into the top of the stingers. The round blade is just there to keep the magnets from jumping into each other when the epoxy is setting.


    Preparing to set a small chunk of steel (the blue rectangle) into the top of the socket for the magnets to find.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 04-24-2019 at 01:36 PM.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Removable wheels set into sockets in the boat, very clever. So, will you remove the wheels before launching, or just roll on into the water and pull the wheels while she floats?

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Removable wheels set into sockets in the boat, very clever. So, will you remove the wheels before launching, or just roll on into the water and pull the wheels while she floats?
    Thx! I will roll it down the boat ramp or beach by hand, and into the water. My one-sided wheelchair wheels get pretty badly ruined by saltwater, so I carry WD40 with me to get them healing as soon as I pull them out of the water. They will store along with the folding bike in the sealed bow compartment shown on page 1 of this thread. I am looking into things like Delrin bearings that are more saltwater tolerant.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    I'm sending a rousing round of applause your way!
    Here is the Port Townsend experimental work in progress. Jay

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thx Jay!

    In case anyone was wondering, the magnets on the stingers turned out to be a waste of time. The steel set in at a weird angle and then the magnetic force wasn't strong enough to not need some sort of a leash. I'll leash them so they don't sink accidentally, then do cork or plastic guides to align the wheel and provide for a gentle press fit that won't rattle out on a bump.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The tube is thin isn't it? Why not just add a good-sized magnet on the side next to the top?
    -Dave

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The tube is thin isn't it? Why not just add a good-sized magnet on the side next to the top?
    Maybe I'll try again, thx Dave.

    The First Mod is now 198 pounds without the trailer parts, and without the rudder, centerboard, side decks, and rig.



    The latest is that I'm working on my custom Bowsprit / Towbar / Caster thing, making Douglas Fir and Carbon members for it. Here is my method for squeezing out excess epoxy:


    Here's the upper/forward pivot point, a thin 1/2" aluminum tube, not sealed yet but pretty tight fit, went through every drill bit in the box to avoid splintering the gunnel:


  22. #57
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Focus is still on the custom bowsprit / trailer hitch / caster thing, here are some process shots:

    Reinforcing the rear rack of the folding bike to accept the hitch. The rack has some cuts from trying to squeeze the folding bike in my just-big-enough bow compartment. I'm repairing the cuts and making the rack stronger than before.


    2 Bowsprit supports about to become one V-shaped part with a carbon fiber gusset, that I'll weld in with fiberglass cloth. The chunks of carved pink foam with packing tape are my custom squeeze out blocks.



    Hand clamping a hot glued squeeze-out spacer for the bowsprit sliding lock thing. This is the part that slides to different settings on the bowsprit and allows different angles for different purposes: towing, sailing, and rolling up/down a boat ramp.


    Now using the squeeze out blocks to get the fiberglass to sit right on this small part:



    Throwing this one in there... SF tugboats seeing off the BAP Union yesterday. It then motored out of the Golden Gate directly into the wind.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 05-01-2019 at 06:43 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The bowsprit towbar caster thing keeps unfolding before my eyes in satisfying and beautiful ways. Here's a sliding pivot point that is the key to the system. It will lock at 3 different positions on the bowsprit -- using some sort of a detent -- to allow for 3 different angles/heights for 3 different purposes: towing, flying a jib, and rolling down a boat ramp.



    Shown here is the towing angle, slightly down, as the height of the folding bike rack will be well below the bow when biking down the street.



    Rolling Hitch! The caster is the hitch. Its axle and swivel provide 2 of 3 axes of motion require. A hinge will provide the 3rd. Later the caster will fold down and help me lower the First Mod into the water.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very interesting thread, thank you for sharing.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    Very interesting thread, thank you for sharing.
    Thanks for following along!

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The First Mod rolls into our Oakland neighborhood!

    Here's my assistant Caleb having a turn. At around 200 pounds so far it is very easy to tow and maneuver in our fairly flat neighborhood. No clearance issues to report. Weight will go up another 80-100 pounds when I add in the deck, rig, rudder, centerboard, oars, food and daysailing gear, etc. I'm hoping I won't have to add a mid-drive motor on the bike for that extra weight.


    The wheels are inside the gunwales by a few inches on each side, so the overall width is the boat's width (around 68") and not wider than a car.


    After the ride, the towbar folds down so that the caster can function for walking with the boat (like down a boat ramp)



    The caster cup is removable.


    With the caster cup removed, the towbar folds up to be a bowsprit, possibly enabling setting a jib at different positions.



    More traditional work also continues on building the hull itself. Here's the obligatory clamp inventory shot:
    Last edited by fossilfool; 05-22-2019 at 04:36 AM.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Slick setup. That tow bar/bowsprit is really nicely thought out and executed.
    -Dave

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Slick setup. That tow bar/bowsprit is really nicely thought out and executed.
    Thanks a lot! One thing I don't understand too well is the benefit / drawback of mounting a jib more forward than is shown on the plans. I know it affects the helm but I'm not sure what that'll mean practically speaking on my boat.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    I'll predict it's not an issue. I used to fly a huge asymmetric flat cut spinnaker off a 5-foot bowsprit. This was on a trimaran, and even on a high reach, there was no lee helm at all. I've seen similar elsewhere. Sloops tolerate bigger headsails.
    -Dave

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thx Dave, that's reassuring.

    Paul

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