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Thread: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very cool Paul - have followed along here since your build started last year - awesome boat and cool carbon fiber tech......love the whole concept of "bike sailing", and what you are doing. Having visited the Bay area dozens of times over the past years, and looked longingly out to the waters of the bay, you are doing great things there! One of my fav bay area boats is the Folkboat, and the very active SFBay Folkboat Association. You have shown that you do not need a heavy 25 ft full keel heavy displacement boat to enjoy the waters around SF bay.....keep up your good works and keep us posted! Cheers!

  2. #142
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by WBViking View Post
    Very cool Paul - have followed along here since your build started last year - awesome boat and cool carbon fiber tech......love the whole concept of "bike sailing", and what you are doing. Having visited the Bay area dozens of times over the past years, and looked longingly out to the waters of the bay, you are doing great things there! One of my fav bay area boats is the Folkboat, and the very active SFBay Folkboat Association. You have shown that you do not need a heavy 25 ft full keel heavy displacement boat to enjoy the waters around SF bay.....keep up your good works and keep us posted! Cheers!
    Thanks a lot and sure, I'll keep you posted. Looking forward to some bike sail camping adventures

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    cool build. Sailing off Berkeley is a challenge. The lee shore aspect of the East Bay has taken a few good bay sailors. The prevailing winds are from the west and can be quite strong particularly in the afternoon, and with an ebb current the water chop will be steep and very rough. You might need to change the rig to properly and easily reef if you are going to take others in the weeks and months to come.
    Thx Ted. I do want to practice reefing on the water. So far so good with feeling safe in gusts. Good tip on how the ebb current will cause worse wind waves.

    One of the challenging things about sailing out of Emeryville / Berkeley is that the hardest conditons are right at the beginning. The lee of Treasure Island and the whole area between Alameda and the island seems a lot less intense, but you've got to tack tack tack through the biggest chop right at the beginning in order to get there.

    I always go sailing in street clothing and I always think 'it'll be dry this time' and I always wonder later why I didn't put on a wetsuit! But last sail at least we were able to dry out in the sun

  4. #144
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    What's up sailors? I wanted to share the good news that my article "Bike Sailing" was published in the current issue of Small Craft Advisor. Please look out for it!

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing



    Hi sailors, plz join tomorrow for the premiere of a new sailing video showing the First Mod in peak summertime wind conditions in San Francisco Bay. While I'm out there doing it, I still feel like a novice, especially in down wind, down wave surfing. I'm seeking feedback from other balanced lug sailors. Hope to see you in the chat and comments!

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    This is how I reef my First Mate on the water:

    Head close hauled. Then, let the lug sail completely free and push the tiller hard to lee so the boat would head up. The boat will just sit there and slowly drift back. If it starts to bear off just bring in the mainsheet a little bit and this will provide just enough lift from the sail to keep it at 45 degrees to the wind.
    Then, I loosen the downhaul and partially drop the sail and cleat off the halyard. I then tighten the reefing lines and bundle up the bottom of the sail with some bungee cord through the reef points and around the bottom of the sail. Then, I re-raise the sail with the halyard, tighten the downhaul, sheet in, and I'm off sailing again. It takes me just a minute or two and I've done it in whitecapped, windy, choppy conditions without issue.

  7. #147
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    Austin, TX
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Awesome video thank you! I have really enjoyed your build, process, and biking reality. I am seeing many lessons I have learned sailing balanced lugs.

    One being, when approaching shore, drop sail! For number of reasons, one being things come up on you quite quickly. If you don't drop the sail at least let if fly out unfettered.

    In running down wind, yes I like getting my weight far aft. What about reefing? In the winds you are describing a reef or two would help, I reluctantly have come to appreciate reefing. But yes you have to practice it and set the sail up for it properly, this takes lines, cleats and planning.

    As to the downhaul, I like a double approach one at the tack and one a bit aft of the mast. This setup triangulates the mast to boom connection and really solidifies this situation. I starting using this set up after a similar wild downwind ride like you had, then found the Mik Storer and others are using this as well. I also sometimes use a boom preventer, taken from the boom end to the bow back to the cockpit. This sets up a nice controlled downwind run.

    On another note your boat does look dry, considering you are sailing a dingy in the SF bay. Yes you have to wear proper gear, and scoop some water out. But it handled it well. I guess if one wanted a dry boat, It would be closer to 30' in length.
    Last edited by Matt young; 08-06-2020 at 10:30 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  8. #148
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    Apr 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Very neat video. I really appreciate the learner's mentality you are bringing to this - it's fun to see someone picking up so much so fast. I also appreciate that you are dressing for immersion. You are clearly sailing on the edge of your abilities in an unforgiving place. I do wonder- what's your plan for an unintended capsize? In the event things went truly wrong in the middle of the bay, what would you do? Do you have a VHF radio accessible? You seem like someone who has probably thought this out.
    I have also found all the non-NWS weather forecast websites to be useless for summer in the Bay. They have such shiny fancy graphics and algorithms, and yet they never learn. I find that the wind is so consistent there's not much need for a forecast, and just assume that it will be cooking by 1pm every afternoon from June- October. I do still check the National Weather Service.
    Reefing should be the next thing on your list. It's hard to overstate how much more control you'll have when you can chose how much sail to show. I sewed my own reef points into my (bermudian) sail and found it to be an easy and satisfying job. I'd be happy to loan you the tools and supplies you'd need to do this, including the spur grommet setter. I'm in Richmond. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to borrow them. You'd only need a regular sewing machine.
    Second, (and I'm putting this forward hesitantly because I know so much less than others on this forum): If I were experiencing the boat handling issues you describe when sailing downwind, I'd try moving crew weight aft. I suspect your bow is diving and the stern is being pushed around it My 14' handles best downwind in a strong breeze with both crewmembers all the way aft.

  9. #149
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    Apr 2014
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    Akron, OH
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Hey Paul

    Cool videos and great Bay sailing! Your boat looks awesome and congrats on your build and mods thus far!

    I would just echo what some of the above are saying - your boat was planing on the wild downwind runs, and developed a lot of weather helm (i.e., boat wants to head up into the wind and tiller gets difficult to control) - keep the weight aft and definitely think about installing a vang or boom preventer to control the sail and boom more - and reef!! In those Bay winds a quick and reliable reefing system is a must!
    Great sailing and video - keep them coming!
    Cheers from NE Ohio!

  10. #150
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by cracked lid View Post
    This is how I reef my First Mate on the water:

    Head close hauled. Then, let the lug sail completely free and push the tiller hard to lee so the boat would head up. The boat will just sit there and slowly drift back. If it starts to bear off just bring in the mainsheet a little bit and this will provide just enough lift from the sail to keep it at 45 degrees to the wind.
    Then, I loosen the downhaul and partially drop the sail and cleat off the halyard. I then tighten the reefing lines and bundle up the bottom of the sail with some bungee cord through the reef points and around the bottom of the sail. Then, I re-raise the sail with the halyard, tighten the downhaul, sheet in, and I'm off sailing again. It takes me just a minute or two and I've done it in whitecapped, windy, choppy conditions without issue.
    Thanks for the explanation!

  11. #151
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    Awesome video thank you! I have really enjoyed your build, process, and biking reality. I am seeing many lessons I have learned sailing balanced lugs.

    In running down wind, yes I like getting my weight far aft. What about reefing? In the winds you are describing a reef or two would help, I reluctantly have come to appreciate reefing. But yes you have to practice it and set the sail up for it properly, this takes lines, cleats and planning. .
    -- I want to try Cracked Lid's approach. I've also watched Lillistone's video on how to set up reefing on the sister boat Phoenix III. Just got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    As to the downhaul, I like a double approach one at the tack and one a bit aft of the mast. This setup triangulates the mast to boom connection and really solidifies this situation. I starting using this set up after a similar wild downwind ride like you had, then found the Mik Storer and others are using this as well. I also sometimes use a boom preventer, taken from the boom end to the bow back to the cockpit. This sets up a nice controlled downwind run.

    On another note your boat does look dry, considering you are sailing a dingy in the SF bay. Yes you have to wear proper gear, and scoop some water out. But it handled it well. I guess if one wanted a dry boat, It would be closer to 30' in length.
    You're not the first to suggest an additional vanging downhaul. I'm interested enough to try. Thx again.
    Last edited by fossilfool; 08-07-2020 at 11:44 PM.

  12. #152
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by pez_leon View Post
    Very neat video. I really appreciate the learner's mentality you are bringing to this - it's fun to see someone picking up so much so fast. I also appreciate that you are dressing for immersion. You are clearly sailing on the edge of your abilities in an unforgiving place. I do wonder- what's your plan for an unintended capsize? In the event things went truly wrong in the middle of the bay, what would you do? Do you have a VHF radio accessible? You seem like someone who has probably thought this out.
    I have also found all the non-NWS weather forecast websites to be useless for summer in the Bay. They have such shiny fancy graphics and algorithms, and yet they never learn. I find that the wind is so consistent there's not much need for a forecast, and just assume that it will be cooking by 1pm every afternoon from June- October. I do still check the National Weather Service.
    Reefing should be the next thing on your list. It's hard to overstate how much more control you'll have when you can chose how much sail to show. I sewed my own reef points into my (bermudian) sail and found it to be an easy and satisfying job. I'd be happy to loan you the tools and supplies you'd need to do this, including the spur grommet setter. I'm in Richmond. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to borrow them. You'd only need a regular sewing machine.
    Second, (and I'm putting this forward hesitantly because I know so much less than others on this forum): If I were experiencing the boat handling issues you describe when sailing downwind, I'd try moving crew weight aft. I suspect your bow is diving and the stern is being pushed around it My 14' handles best downwind in a strong breeze with both crewmembers all the way aft.
    Great tips and thanks very much for offering to loan the tools needed. Fortunately my sail already has 3 reef lines and all I have to do is devote the time to using them. I'm gonna!

    Yes the weather sites have been a mixed bag. I enjoyed WillyWeather because it shows predicted v actual, until I noticed that the prediction is always lower than actual, so what's the use of the prediction? I am trying Sailflow and like it because they have a weather station on Angel Island, but it's not free.

    I do carry a VHF radio. I have tested it to make sure it reaches the coast guard. I have a bailing bucket and I wear a wetsuit. I have done true capsize practices in my smaller boat the Banshee. In this boat I've only done a weak sauce capsize practice that's on my youtube channel and was more of a test of the seals of my hatches than a true capsize practice. I want to do a real capsize practice again soon. This boat scoops up more water than I like when it capsizes but the designer Ross Lillistone says that's a good thing because it's more possible to rite it when it sits lower. When it's full of water, it is very tippy, which could make for a frustrating and scary situation out there. The designer says bailing from outside the boat is an option. I've never capsized and hope to keep it that way. Although it looks oversailed at points in this video, I don't think it's crazily so. 105 sq feet of sail for a 17' boat with a 68" beam that weighs 330#. Often I wish the sail were bigger!

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    new zealand
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    4,552

    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Downwind, you'd normally raise the centerboard 1/2 to 3/4, as well as moving weight aft. You want a "dry" dinghy, build one of John Welsford's Pathfinder's - fantastic boat, but no way will you tow it behind a bicycle, and at 17', probably pushing the definition of "dinghy".
    I'm really impressed with how well yours stood up in those conditions, but I'd be figuring out how to fit a venturi bailed if it were mine - it has more than enough speed to run one.

    Pete
    I have seven trolls on ignore

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks for posting the video--those are some pretty challenging conditions to be learning in.

    A couple of thoughts:

    1. Reefing. Definitely called for in those conditions, especially downwind. You won't typically lose speed downwind when you reef--what you'll do is turn a white-knuckle session into something SO much calmer and in control. You'll lose a LOT of that weather helm (the boat's tendency to turn back upwind and away from your destination), and keep almost all of the speed. In conditions like that in my boat, I'd be double, or (depending on how calm I want to be) even triple-reefed. I was just out yesterday in similar conditions, double-reefed, sailing a broad reach. Double-reefed was still a bit overpowered--but UNREEFED would have been on the edge (or over the edge) of disaster and chaos.

    Especially for downwind, reefing down will bring control, a lighter helm, and still good speed. To my eye, you had way too much sail up for the conditions on the downwind legs especially.

    2. Around 16:00 in the video and following, it looks like you may be letting the boom out a bit too far. It's hard to tell because the top of the sail is not in the video. What you REALLY want to avoid is letting the tip of the yard go forward of the mast. That can cause major problems.

    3. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but here's an issue that may have come up--or if not, it will. When a big gust hits while running or broad reaching, do NOT turn up into the wind as you might while sailing close-hauled, to take the edge of the gust and prevent excess heeling. When sailing downwind, you have to do the opposite--turn AWAY from the wind.

    And as noted earlier, crew weight aft for running and broad reaching. As far aft as practical, really. I generally raise my board entirely while broad reaching, on the theory that the boat might slip sideways that way rather than trip over the board and capsize in a gust.

    Looks like you're having a lot of fun! Good to see your boat is working out for you.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  15. #155
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    Sep 2018
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Thanks Tom and everyone who has offered tips and encouraged me to learn to reef. I tried it yesterday and it worked! I haven't installed a system yet with cleats and lines. I just tied in what I thought I'd need at the dock, and kept it the whole afternoon. Upwind was more enjoyable in big conditions. By the downwind leg, the breeze was gentle but it didn't feel lame. Now I plan to install a reefing system soon.

    I also tried raising the board entirely on the downwind leg, and I'll experiment with that for broad reaching too.

    Yes, it's been enjoyable! I picnicked at the cove on Treasure Island with a buddy, did a little beach cleanup, and stuffed it all in my aft hatch. Now I have to vacuum out the sand

    Tom, one of your tips is counter intuitive. On a broad reach why would you turn downwind on a gust? Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Thanks for posting the video--those are some pretty challenging conditions to be learning in.

    3. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but here's an issue that may have come up--or if not, it will. When a big gust hits while running or broad reaching, do NOT turn up into the wind as you might while sailing close-hauled, to take the edge of the gust and prevent excess heeling. When sailing downwind, you have to do the opposite--turn AWAY from the wind.

    Tom
    Last edited by fossilfool; 08-10-2020 at 08:33 AM.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    The way I understand the need to turn farther off the wind in a gust while sailing downwind: if you turn into the wind (as you might while sailing close-hauled), you'll actually increase the apparent wind speed (the speed of the wind over the sail) as you change the boat's heading--in effect, increasing the force of the gust. Turning off the wind IS counter-intuitive, but it reduces the apparent wind speed rather than increasing it.

    I'm far from an expert, so perhaps others with experience will weigh in on that as well. But I think it's fairly well accepted as the thing to do.

    Also for what it's worth, I prefer to "tack" downwind rather than running--keeping at an angle of 15-20 degrees from dead downwind. In my boat, that's actually faster. You do need to be comfortable gybing, but that's a necessary skill anyway.

    It's also interesting to see just how "gentle" a breeze can feel downwind when it really isn't. That has fooled me into delaying a reef or two longer than I should have. I've learned better now, mostly.

    Edit to add: You can also choose to sheet in a little tighter for downwind sailing if you're feeling a bit overpowered.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-10-2020 at 10:04 AM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post

    ...it looks like you may be letting the boom out a bit too far. It's hard to tell because the top of the sail is not in the video. What you REALLY want to avoid is letting the tip of the yard go forward of the mast. That can cause major problems.


    Tom
    This.



    It can happen quickly, and you were in much tougher conditions.

    Jeff C

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