Building a scaled up Lillistone First Mate in G10 for Bike Sailing

[WBViking]

Very cool Paul - have followed along here since your build started last year - awesome boat and cool carbon fiber tech......love the whole concept of "bike sailing", and what you are doing. Having visited the Bay area dozens of times over the past years, and looked longingly out to the waters of the bay, you are doing great things there! One of my fav bay area boats is the Folkboat, and the very active SFBay Folkboat Association. You have shown that you do not need a heavy 25 ft full keel heavy displacement boat to enjoy the waters around SF bay.....keep up your good works and keep us posted! Cheers!

[fossilfool]

Very cool Paul - have followed along here since your build started last year - awesome boat and cool carbon fiber tech......love the whole concept of "bike sailing", and what you are doing. Having visited the Bay area dozens of times over the past years, and looked longingly out to the waters of the bay, you are doing great things there! One of my fav bay area boats is the Folkboat, and the very active SFBay Folkboat Association. You have shown that you do not need a heavy 25 ft full keel heavy displacement boat to enjoy the waters around SF bay.....keep up your good works and keep us posted! Cheers!

Thanks a lot and sure, I'll keep you posted. Looking forward to some bike sail camping adventures

[fossilfool]

cool build. Sailing off Berkeley is a challenge. The lee shore aspect of the East Bay has taken a few good bay sailors. The prevailing winds are from the west and can be quite strong particularly in the afternoon, and with an ebb current the water chop will be steep and very rough. You might need to change the rig to properly and easily reef if you are going to take others in the weeks and months to come.

Thx Ted. I do want to practice reefing on the water. So far so good with feeling safe in gusts. Good tip on how the ebb current will cause worse wind waves.

One of the challenging things about sailing out of Emeryville / Berkeley is that the hardest conditons are right at the beginning. The lee of Treasure Island and the whole area between Alameda and the island seems a lot less intense, but you've got to tack tack tack through the biggest chop right at the beginning in order to get there.

I always go sailing in street clothing and I always think 'it'll be dry this time' and I always wonder later why I didn't put on a wetsuit! But last sail at least we were able to dry out in the sun

[fossilfool]

What's up sailors? I wanted to share the good news that my article "Bike Sailing" was published in the current issue of Small Craft Advisor. Please look out for it!

[fossilfool]

Hi sailors, plz join tomorrow for the premiere of a new sailing video showing the First Mod in peak summertime wind conditions in San Francisco Bay. While I'm out there doing it, I still feel like a novice, especially in down wind, down wave surfing. I'm seeking feedback from other balanced lug sailors. Hope to see you in the chat and comments!

[cracked lid]

This is how I reef my First Mate on the water:

Head close hauled. Then, let the lug sail completely free and push the tiller hard to lee so the boat would head up. The boat will just sit there and slowly drift back. If it starts to bear off just bring in the mainsheet a little bit and this will provide just enough lift from the sail to keep it at 45 degrees to the wind.
Then, I loosen the downhaul and partially drop the sail and cleat off the halyard. I then tighten the reefing lines and bundle up the bottom of the sail with some bungee cord through the reef points and around the bottom of the sail. Then, I re-raise the sail with the halyard, tighten the downhaul, sheet in, and I'm off sailing again. It takes me just a minute or two and I've done it in whitecapped, windy, choppy conditions without issue.

[Matt young]

Awesome video thank you! I have really enjoyed your build, process, and biking reality. I am seeing many lessons I have learned sailing balanced lugs.

One being, when approaching shore, drop sail! For number of reasons, one being things come up on you quite quickly. If you don't drop the sail at least let if fly out unfettered.

In running down wind, yes I like getting my weight far aft. What about reefing? In the winds you are describing a reef or two would help, I reluctantly have come to appreciate reefing. But yes you have to practice it and set the sail up for it properly, this takes lines, cleats and planning.

As to the downhaul, I like a double approach one at the tack and one a bit aft of the mast. This setup triangulates the mast to boom connection and really solidifies this situation. I starting using this set up after a similar wild downwind ride like you had, then found the Mik Storer and others are using this as well. I also sometimes use a boom preventer, taken from the boom end to the bow back to the cockpit. This sets up a nice controlled downwind run.

On another note your boat does look dry, considering you are sailing a dingy in the SF bay. Yes you have to wear proper gear, and scoop some water out. But it handled it well. I guess if one wanted a dry boat, It would be closer to 30' in length.

[pez_leon]

Very neat video. I really appreciate the learner's mentality you are bringing to this - it's fun to see someone picking up so much so fast. I also appreciate that you are dressing for immersion. You are clearly sailing on the edge of your abilities in an unforgiving place. I do wonder- what's your plan for an unintended capsize? In the event things went truly wrong in the middle of the bay, what would you do? Do you have a VHF radio accessible? You seem like someone who has probably thought this out.
I have also found all the non-NWS weather forecast websites to be useless for summer in the Bay. They have such shiny fancy graphics and algorithms, and yet they never learn. I find that the wind is so consistent there's not much need for a forecast, and just assume that it will be cooking by 1pm every afternoon from June- October. I do still check the National Weather Service.
Reefing should be the next thing on your list. It's hard to overstate how much more control you'll have when you can chose how much sail to show. I sewed my own reef points into my (bermudian) sail and found it to be an easy and satisfying job. I'd be happy to loan you the tools and supplies you'd need to do this, including the spur grommet setter. I'm in Richmond. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to borrow them. You'd only need a regular sewing machine.
Second, (and I'm putting this forward hesitantly because I know so much less than others on this forum): If I were experiencing the boat handling issues you describe when sailing downwind, I'd try moving crew weight aft. I suspect your bow is diving and the stern is being pushed around it My 14' handles best downwind in a strong breeze with both crewmembers all the way aft.

[WBViking]

Hey Paul

Cool videos and great Bay sailing! Your boat looks awesome and congrats on your build and mods thus far!

I would just echo what some of the above are saying - your boat was planing on the wild downwind runs, and developed a lot of weather helm (i.e., boat wants to head up into the wind and tiller gets difficult to control) - keep the weight aft and definitely think about installing a vang or boom preventer to control the sail and boom more - and reef!! In those Bay winds a quick and reliable reefing system is a must!
Great sailing and video - keep them coming!
Cheers from NE Ohio!

[fossilfool]

This is how I reef my First Mate on the water:

Head close hauled. Then, let the lug sail completely free and push the tiller hard to lee so the boat would head up. The boat will just sit there and slowly drift back. If it starts to bear off just bring in the mainsheet a little bit and this will provide just enough lift from the sail to keep it at 45 degrees to the wind.
Then, I loosen the downhaul and partially drop the sail and cleat off the halyard. I then tighten the reefing lines and bundle up the bottom of the sail with some bungee cord through the reef points and around the bottom of the sail. Then, I re-raise the sail with the halyard, tighten the downhaul, sheet in, and I'm off sailing again. It takes me just a minute or two and I've done it in whitecapped, windy, choppy conditions without issue.

Thanks for the explanation!

[fossilfool]

Awesome video thank you! I have really enjoyed your build, process, and biking reality. I am seeing many lessons I have learned sailing balanced lugs.

In running down wind, yes I like getting my weight far aft. What about reefing? In the winds you are describing a reef or two would help, I reluctantly have come to appreciate reefing. But yes you have to practice it and set the sail up for it properly, this takes lines, cleats and planning. .

-- I want to try Cracked Lid's approach. I've also watched Lillistone's video on how to set up reefing on the sister boat Phoenix III. Just got to do it.

As to the downhaul, I like a double approach one at the tack and one a bit aft of the mast. This setup triangulates the mast to boom connection and really solidifies this situation. I starting using this set up after a similar wild downwind ride like you had, then found the Mik Storer and others are using this as well. I also sometimes use a boom preventer, taken from the boom end to the bow back to the cockpit. This sets up a nice controlled downwind run.

On another note your boat does look dry, considering you are sailing a dingy in the SF bay. Yes you have to wear proper gear, and scoop some water out. But it handled it well. I guess if one wanted a dry boat, It would be closer to 30' in length.

You're not the first to suggest an additional vanging downhaul. I'm interested enough to try. Thx again.

[fossilfool]

Very neat video. I really appreciate the learner's mentality you are bringing to this - it's fun to see someone picking up so much so fast. I also appreciate that you are dressing for immersion. You are clearly sailing on the edge of your abilities in an unforgiving place. I do wonder- what's your plan for an unintended capsize? In the event things went truly wrong in the middle of the bay, what would you do? Do you have a VHF radio accessible? You seem like someone who has probably thought this out.
I have also found all the non-NWS weather forecast websites to be useless for summer in the Bay. They have such shiny fancy graphics and algorithms, and yet they never learn. I find that the wind is so consistent there's not much need for a forecast, and just assume that it will be cooking by 1pm every afternoon from June- October. I do still check the National Weather Service.
Reefing should be the next thing on your list. It's hard to overstate how much more control you'll have when you can chose how much sail to show. I sewed my own reef points into my (bermudian) sail and found it to be an easy and satisfying job. I'd be happy to loan you the tools and supplies you'd need to do this, including the spur grommet setter. I'm in Richmond. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to borrow them. You'd only need a regular sewing machine.
Second, (and I'm putting this forward hesitantly because I know so much less than others on this forum): If I were experiencing the boat handling issues you describe when sailing downwind, I'd try moving crew weight aft. I suspect your bow is diving and the stern is being pushed around it My 14' handles best downwind in a strong breeze with both crewmembers all the way aft.

Great tips and thanks very much for offering to loan the tools needed. Fortunately my sail already has 3 reef lines and all I have to do is devote the time to using them. I'm gonna!

Yes the weather sites have been a mixed bag. I enjoyed WillyWeather because it shows predicted v actual, until I noticed that the prediction is always lower than actual, so what's the use of the prediction? I am trying Sailflow and like it because they have a weather station on Angel Island, but it's not free.

I do carry a VHF radio. I have tested it to make sure it reaches the coast guard. I have a bailing bucket and I wear a wetsuit. I have done true capsize practices in my smaller boat the Banshee. In this boat I've only done a weak sauce capsize practice that's on my youtube channel and was more of a test of the seals of my hatches than a true capsize practice. I want to do a real capsize practice again soon. This boat scoops up more water than I like when it capsizes but the designer Ross Lillistone says that's a good thing because it's more possible to rite it when it sits lower. When it's full of water, it is very tippy, which could make for a frustrating and scary situation out there. The designer says bailing from outside the boat is an option. I've never capsized and hope to keep it that way. Although it looks oversailed at points in this video, I don't think it's crazily so. 105 sq feet of sail for a 17' boat with a 68" beam that weighs 330#. Often I wish the sail were bigger!

[epoxyboy]

Downwind, you'd normally raise the centerboard 1/2 to 3/4, as well as moving weight aft. You want a "dry" dinghy, build one of John Welsford's Pathfinder's - fantastic boat, but no way will you tow it behind a bicycle, and at 17', probably pushing the definition of "dinghy".
I'm really impressed with how well yours stood up in those conditions, but I'd be figuring out how to fit a venturi bailed if it were mine - it has more than enough speed to run one.

Pete

[WI-Tom]

Thanks for posting the video--those are some pretty challenging conditions to be learning in.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Reefing. Definitely called for in those conditions, especially downwind. You won't typically lose speed downwind when you reef--what you'll do is turn a white-knuckle session into something SO much calmer and in control. You'll lose a LOT of that weather helm (the boat's tendency to turn back upwind and away from your destination), and keep almost all of the speed. In conditions like that in my boat, I'd be double, or (depending on how calm I want to be) even triple-reefed. I was just out yesterday in similar conditions, double-reefed, sailing a broad reach. Double-reefed was still a bit overpowered--but UNREEFED would have been on the edge (or over the edge) of disaster and chaos.

Especially for downwind, reefing down will bring control, a lighter helm, and still good speed. To my eye, you had way too much sail up for the conditions on the downwind legs especially.

2. Around 16:00 in the video and following, it looks like you may be letting the boom out a bit too far. It's hard to tell because the top of the sail is not in the video. What you REALLY want to avoid is letting the tip of the yard go forward of the mast. That can cause major problems.

3. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but here's an issue that may have come up--or if not, it will. When a big gust hits while running or broad reaching, do NOT turn up into the wind as you might while sailing close-hauled, to take the edge of the gust and prevent excess heeling. When sailing downwind, you have to do the opposite--turn AWAY from the wind.

And as noted earlier, crew weight aft for running and broad reaching. As far aft as practical, really. I generally raise my board entirely while broad reaching, on the theory that the boat might slip sideways that way rather than trip over the board and capsize in a gust.

Looks like you're having a lot of fun! Good to see your boat is working out for you.

Tom

[fossilfool]

Thanks Tom and everyone who has offered tips and encouraged me to learn to reef. I tried it yesterday and it worked! I haven't installed a system yet with cleats and lines. I just tied in what I thought I'd need at the dock, and kept it the whole afternoon. Upwind was more enjoyable in big conditions. By the downwind leg, the breeze was gentle but it didn't feel lame. Now I plan to install a reefing system soon.

I also tried raising the board entirely on the downwind leg, and I'll experiment with that for broad reaching too.

Yes, it's been enjoyable! I picnicked at the cove on Treasure Island with a buddy, did a little beach cleanup, and stuffed it all in my aft hatch. Now I have to vacuum out the sand

Tom, one of your tips is counter intuitive. On a broad reach why would you turn downwind on a gust? Thanks.

Thanks for posting the video--those are some pretty challenging conditions to be learning in.

3. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but here's an issue that may have come up--or if not, it will. When a big gust hits while running or broad reaching, do NOT turn up into the wind as you might while sailing close-hauled, to take the edge of the gust and prevent excess heeling. When sailing downwind, you have to do the opposite--turn AWAY from the wind.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

The way I understand the need to turn farther off the wind in a gust while sailing downwind: if you turn into the wind (as you might while sailing close-hauled), you'll actually increase the apparent wind speed (the speed of the wind over the sail) as you change the boat's heading--in effect, increasing the force of the gust. Turning off the wind IS counter-intuitive, but it reduces the apparent wind speed rather than increasing it.

I'm far from an expert, so perhaps others with experience will weigh in on that as well. But I think it's fairly well accepted as the thing to do.

Also for what it's worth, I prefer to "tack" downwind rather than running--keeping at an angle of 15-20 degrees from dead downwind. In my boat, that's actually faster. You do need to be comfortable gybing, but that's a necessary skill anyway.

It's also interesting to see just how "gentle" a breeze can feel downwind when it really isn't. That has fooled me into delaying a reef or two longer than I should have. I've learned better now, mostly.

Edit to add: You can also choose to sheet in a little tighter for downwind sailing if you're feeling a bit overpowered.

Tom

[leikec]

...it looks like you may be letting the boom out a bit too far. It's hard to tell because the top of the sail is not in the video. What you REALLY want to avoid is letting the tip of the yard go forward of the mast. That can cause major problems.


Tom

This.



It can happen quickly, and you were in much tougher conditions.

Jeff C

[fossilfool]

Hi sailors, it's been a minute since I updated you but there's been some good progress. The boat has gotten prettier with more UV protection on the G10 and plywood, and a white coat over most of the carbon fiber parts (shown in the video below but not the preview image). I got this idea from Ross Lillistone, who said it's the right way to protect carbon from the sun. I didn't act on it initially but then last summer on a hot day one of my oars, lashed to the side with a string, got quite bow shaped from the force of the string and the softened epoxy. I know folks say that epoxy is rated for higher temps, but in my actual experience, I notice a major difference in flexiness when the sun is beating down on the black carbon. I also made an oar storage system so the shaft doesn't get flexed. FYI I'm using mostly Entropy Resins epoxy. I chose it because it has a certain portion of biocontent and I want to support innovation in bio-based epoxy, but it's also popular in the surfboard scene, so that gives me peace of mind that it's not a mistake for sun and water. In any case, I want my stuff to last and not flex, so I painted, and I like the results visually.

Here's my most recent vid, showing the boat moving through the water under 12 knots of breeze and almost no chop, with musings on whether I'll get the courage to attempt a sail under the Golden Gate Bridge. I've gotten some good feedback on YouTube and facebook, mostly people saying beware of the massive ebb tides, but on the right day, why not? One of reasons why not is that it takes a long time to tack West from Oakland. The spot where this video takes place is only a third of the way to the Bridge and it took me 2 hours to get there. My thinking is that I would do try the Bridge on the 2nd morning of a 2-day trip, where day 1 is spent beating West to Aquatic Park / Fisherman's Wharf in SF or Horseshoe Bay in Marin (just East of the Bridge). I'm curious to hear from folks who've tried it in open boats. Thanks for reading, watching, and supporting my project!

[rgthom]

Nice video! I've been out the gate a few times on open rowboats (not sailing). Each time was beginning of flood (did not want to get sucked out), and normal summer onshore winds. At the N tower seas were roughest just under and past the bridge, better farther out and better toward the center of the bridge in full flood (as expected, wind with the current). At the S tower one trip it was smooth water until just near the tower, then sudden breaking waves from multiple angles. I think the bottom rises at the tower, the flood current is pushed up and makes for some nasty big chop. The boat I was on then was not designed for that, the only time in my rowing life I had to be rescued .

-Rick

[timo4352]

Great video.
Love that transparent hull.

[fossilfool]

Nice video! I've been out the gate a few times on open rowboats (not sailing). Each time was beginning of flood (did not want to get sucked out), and normal summer onshore winds. At the N tower seas were roughest just under and past the bridge, better farther out and better toward the center of the bridge in full flood (as expected, wind with the current). At the S tower one trip it was smooth water until just near the tower, then sudden breaking waves from multiple angles. I think the bottom rises at the tower, the flood current is pushed up and makes for some nasty big chop. The boat I was on then was not designed for that, the only time in my rowing life I had to be rescued .

-Rick

Sounds like an interesting story and glad you did get rescued. I have tried rowing this boat in a current and chop and it's not very fast. Also difficult to keep it pointed into the wind or off the wind. It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence if I really needed to get myself to safety :/ Thanks for watching.

[fossilfool]

The multi-function bowsprit / towbar / dock dolly allows towing by bike and launching by hand without a vehicle. For those who've thought of making their own, here's an up close look!

[rgthom]

The spritbardolly is very well done, but I also want to know about the wheels. I think you made angled sockets in the boat, is that right? How do you handle installing and removing the wheels while launching and retrieving? I have not managed to make that work without using a slide off type dolly, which is a much bigger thing to try to stow.

While I have combined bikes and boats on linked water to path trips, I have not succeeded in using a bike to transport the boat. My nearest launch ramp is 8 miles from home, I can easily ride a bike there on bike lanes and paths but trying to haul the boat would mean using traffic lanes while riding very slowly. I am not sure many folk would be close enough to the water to pull it off as you have, but I appreciate the example.

-Rick

[fossilfool]

Hey Rick, thanks! And thanks for checking out the vid. Here are a couple pics.

A slide off dolly is indeed harder to deal with. Harder to align properly and allows more flex because it doesn't benefit as much from the stiffness of the boat itself. Wheels are therefore more likely to camber in and rub your hull and gunwhales unless you really beef up the dolly.

Because I was building with this in mind from the start, I added diagonal sockets to receive wheel stingers. Here's a pic:

IMG-1152.jpg

Note that the Lillistone plans call for only a single midships web frame (the aft one with the drain holes). I added the second midships web frame (the forward one with the diagonal tube stuck to it), turning the thwart area into more of a box structure. I think it's very strong. Recently I gave my girlfriend and her 12 year old son a ride back from the water, both sitting as instructed on the thwart as we rode back on a bumpy road from Berkeley Marina. No extra creaking sounds. The diagonal tube is made of 10 layers of carbon fiber sleeving. The ugly cream colored part at the top was left over from a failed attempt to install magnets in the stingers and steel in the boat, so that the stingers would magnetically stay up. Turns out this wasn't necessary. Gravity keeps them exactly where they need to be when riding to the water. And the buoyancy of the air in the tire keeps them where they need to be at the dock after launch. More than once I've forgotten to remove them and remembered when I noticed the extra drag, but they hadn't gone anywhere.

To remove them I reach over the side and yank them out. This usually gets my arm wet up to the elbow, not too bad. Reinstalling them is pretty quick too. Not a point of frustration, actually fun! Best part is that once they're in I never have to readjust or realign them.

To make the sockets leak-free after the botched magnet attempt I flipped the boat and poured thickened epoxy in (about 1/2"). I jammed a little chunk of rubber into the socket after waterproofing to add a bit of suspension and also to get the wheels a bit further from the boat. I leave the exterior holes open when I sail. I have not attempted to install a plug.

Here's what a stinger looks like. The bits of G10 and wood are to take up slop in the socket for a quieter, more aligned ride. I think I used 4 or 6 layers of sleeving over a nice piece of vertical grain Douglas Fir. Then I welded in a stainless steel socket for the one-sided wheelchair style axle. They weigh 24 oz each.

IMG-1153.jpg

Regarding your particular 8 mile commute to the water, that is borderline, I agree. I live 2 miles from the closest launch point. I do go in busy city streets and cars are very respectful. Also launching by hand / bike seems quicker than doing it by car so you'd gain some of the time back that you lost by biking the 8 miles.

My cruising speed is usually 12-15 mph on the way to the water, but I can go up to 20 mph safely and the electric folding bike can do that well on the flats.

--Paul

[fossilfool]

Latest vid shows the completion of the locking mechanism for the multi-function towbar / dock dolly / bowsprit and provides a lower tech approach for those who like the multi-function part but don't want to fiddle for weeks with mechanisms. Please check it out and let me know if you're thinking of building something like this into your boat!

[Woxbox]

Very slick mechanism, but yeah, I would just go with a through pin myself.

[fossilfool]

Thx Dave! Amazingly the through pin idea didn't come to me until a few days ago, nearly 2 years into the project Sometimes the obvious solution is only obvious in retrospect.

Paul