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Thread: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the rich

  1. #36
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    If anyone dreams of being hired to work for a major hedge/private equity fund or consulting firm (which can be a stepping stone to CEO-dom) they ONLY recruit at the top five schools in the nation. And they do it religiously.
    You know, if enough average and below average students cheat in order to get into the best schools, the problem may eventually resolve itself as the incompetence of the cheaters reveals itself, either while in college or on the job afterwards.

    Here's a piece that suggests that it's not teaching quality that drives the rankings, it's the talent of the students that schools recruit:

    "We first found high correlations between our test score rankings and U.S. News national university rank – 0.892 – and liberal arts college rank – 0.890 – even though U.S. News weights these scores only about 8 percent in their formula. Times Higher Education’s U.S. school ranking was correlated 0.787 with SAT and ACT scores and Times Higher Education’s full international school ranking was correlated 0.659. This suggests that the SAT/ACT rankings could function as a common factor that connects all rankings.

    But what about other types of rankings that were formulated in very different ways for different purposes?When we examined the correlation between our test score ranking and a “revealed preference ranking,” which was based on the colleges students prefer when they can choose among them, we found these rankings to be highly related at 0.757.

    When we compared the test score rankings to a novel set of rankings created by Lumosity, the creator of “brain games” meant to boost cognitive functioning, we found that ranking to be highly related to SAT/ACT scores as well – at 0.794.

    Finally, we examined a “critical thinking” measurethe CLA+ – intended to assess critical thinking among freshman college students. We again found this to be highly related to the test score rankings – at 0.846.

    A question of usefulness

    The similarities in rankings raises the important issue of what all these rankings actually measure. Do they really measure the value that a college adds to a student’s life? Or are they largely a function of student test scores, which reflects student characteristics and educational development, among other aspects, such as reasoning abilities.
    Considering the correlation between SAT scores and college rankings, is it fair for a school to say a parent is getting a good “return on investment” for the tuition they pay? Since student characteristics – as indicated by test scores – are so highly correlated with the rankings, we argue that student characteristics should be considered as inputs when evaluating any outputs of a school. This is because schools that admit students who score well on the SAT or ACT will also have successful graduates based on the research that shows standardized tests alone predict many long-term outcomes.

    Schools may want to take as much credit as they can for the education and opportunities they give students. But if a school enrolls the top students to begin with, it’s hardly surprising that such a school would end up on top in terms of other outcomes. A college’s success may be less about the quality of its instruction and more about the talent it can recruit.

    https://www.mdpi.com/2079-3200/6/3/37/htm

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post
    Hey! Just a gawdam minute here! I taught in college for more than fifty years and nobody got around to telling me that I was sitting on a gold mine. Scheese! I could have retired a ga-zillionair...but nobody told me...
    Hey! I gotta SOB story and well, I paid my cousin Charlie from hackensack 20 bucks for SAT answers .......

    The only place I could get in was Monclair....

  3. #38
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Hey! I gotta SOB story and well, I paid my cousin Charlie from hackensack 20 bucks for SAT answers .......

    The only place I could get in was Monclair....

    I betcha Trump University would have offered a degree in roofing if you'd asked them.



  4. #39
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Might have to major in Asphalt.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post
    Might have to major in Asphalt.
    I think most of us got the shakes in college at least once...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #41
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I think most of us got the shakes in college at least once...
    Some were caught flashing too.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    It seems that for Science and Engineering, a 'prestigious' college makes little difference in earnings. For other majors, esp. Business, it makes a noticeable difference. A quick peek doesn't turn up anything about correlation to job offers from 'better' firms... or about overall job satisfaction or happiness.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...matter/400898/
    David G
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I betcha Trump University would have offered a degree in roofing if you'd asked them.


    That's pretty much the essence of my life........

  9. #44
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    That's pretty much the essence of my life........
    At roofing college the courses overlap.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    That's pretty much the essence of my life........
    Once you go flat, you'll never go back!

    Nosce te ipsum

  11. #46
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Coed at roofing college.


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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Coed at roofing college.

    I think she is what we call cleaning the mop, one pushes the tar out before performing the....swirl. you twist it then set it down in s round shape on the paper the tar came in, this way it heats up easy the next time.

    See I paid attention in class.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    I think she is what we call cleaning the mop, one pushes the tar out before performing the....swirl. you twist it then set it down in s round shape on the paper the tar came in, this way it heats up easy the next time.

    See I paid attention in class.
    I have done that job.. no thanks
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Stamford? Wrong coast. Evidently, the Stanford sailing coach was the only one indicted who did not pocket any of the bribes, but supposedly had all the money donated to the sailing programs. I'd like to know more about that, where the money went, and how much support the sailing programs got at a rich school like Stanford. I know at a large local school, they cut way back on the space for the sailing team in order to bring in kayak rentals for the public, simply because they brought in more money. And really mindless, wide kayaks that don't require or teach any skills.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    It seems that for Science and Engineering, a 'prestigious' college makes little difference in earnings. For other majors, esp. Business, it makes a noticeable difference. A quick peek doesn't turn up anything about correlation to job offers from 'better' firms... or about overall job satisfaction or happiness.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...matter/400898/
    They may not offer better job placement or earnings but they certainly are a status symbol to the kind of people that are buying admissions, and that's really what it's about. If you paid millions to get your kid admitted how good a job does he really need??
    Tom

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    #44 for the win.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    It seems that for Science and Engineering, a 'prestigious' college makes little difference in earnings. For other majors, esp. Business, it makes a noticeable difference. A quick peek doesn't turn up anything about correlation to job offers from 'better' firms... or about overall job satisfaction or happiness.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...matter/400898/
    From the link:
    Ten years out, those who graduated from highly-ranked schools earn more than their peers who went to less selective schools. That’s because there are lots of other factors at play.
    Long term is important.
    Life is complex.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    It's all horse sh!t. A couple if years in community college followed by a couple of years in a reasonable four year college would have been more than satisfactory, and still is.
    That is a common belief. One that I don't hold.

    There is a great deal of difference between a a reasonable four year STEM university and a top ranked STEM university. For many students it might not matter but for the top students they may be better off going to work rather than spending 4 years in a reasonable four year university.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    That is a common belief. One that I don't hold.

    There is a great deal of difference between a a reasonable four year STEM university and a top ranked STEM university. For many students it might not matter but for the top students they may be better off going to work rather than spending 4 years in a reasonable four year university.
    I have to agree with this. I've watched HR people sneer at community college info on resumes. Seeing an Ivy or another big name, they sit up & take notice.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    From what I saw, A lot of this started in grammar school, , people fought to get into the right Catholic high school, one needed the bishop to write a letter, , how good the letter linked to how big the donation. from that right school it was a stepping stone to get into the right college, one needed perfect grades plus a letter from the right
    People. Preferably a congressman..

    One needed the eagle scout pin plus the soccer picture, the political correct sport...

    The sport I never saw anyone ever playing on their own.

    Choir, chess club, track, a stint on the suicide phone line, no shop classes, food bank dispenser...



    Better have 5 letters from the alumni from the school you wish to get in..
    None of that?.

    Brag about yer community college or fly over state college the rest of your life while working st UPS or a handyman or physical ed teacher.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I have to agree with this. I've watched HR people sneer at community college info on resumes. Seeing an Ivy or another big name, they sit up & take notice.
    I haven't met those HR people. I wonder where the ones you met received their educations?


    There are, (or at least there were), some occupations where competence mattered, and you had to produce. Incompetence was quickly identified irrespective of schools attended.


    Of course in this new age you might be right. The age of computer marketing savvy, snot nosed kids in focus groups, clamoring to implement the latest click bait scam to f*ck you. Yeah, you might be right, where fakery and puffery are supreme.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I haven't met those HR people. I wonder where the ones you met received their educations?


    There are, (or at least there were), some occupations where competence mattered, and you had to produce. Incompetence was quickly identified irrespective of schools attended.


    Of course in this new age you might be right. The age of computer marketing savvy, snot nosed kids in focus groups, clamoring to implement the latest click bait scam to f*ck you. Yeah, you might be right, where fakery and puffery are supreme.
    One I just watched do this was a graduate of OSU. Another was from a 2nd tier Vermont college. Dunno where another one I can think of who reacted this way went to college - but I doubt she was Ivy League.

    A place where I haven't seen it matter is IT/programming positions. There it's all about the experience - as there is no substitute for real world knowledge. As an example, in a Microsoft certification course I took (actually a series of 'em for MCSE) - the instructor regularly pointed out test questions we might see where the Microsoft "correct" answers were just plain wrong.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post

    Brag about yer community college or fly over state college the rest of your life while working st UPS or a handyman or physical ed teacher.
    Consider the competent people who formulate your medications or carefully shove cameras up your ass - just maybe their community colleges and state colleges did a fine job, and just maybe those people acquired an honest competence.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Nobody here is saying you cannot get a good education from a community college! What's being said is that you may find it easier to get a job or easier to advance in a company if you have a degree from a "prestigious" school.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Consider the competent people who formulate your medications or carefully shove cameras up your ass - just maybe their community colleges and state colleges did a fine job, and just maybe those people acquired an honest competence.
    I said those that brag in that they are better then others.

  26. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Consider the competent people who formulate your medications or carefully shove cameras up your ass - just maybe their community colleges and state colleges did a fine job, and just maybe those people acquired an honest competence.


    Sure. But the ones who will write anyone script for Oxy or defraud insurers are not necessarily incompetent.

    I'm sure the folks who brought us to the great recession were quite competent. How about those who designed the space shuttle or Titanic, were they not competent?

    Competence, or lack of it, is only one part of anyone's makeup.

    Kevin


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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Sure. But the ones who will write anyone script for Oxy or defraud insurers are not necessarily incompetent.

    I'm sure the folks who brought us to the great recession were quite competent. How about those who designed the space shuttle or Titanic, were they not competent?

    Competence, or lack of it, is only one part of anyone's makeup.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    The space shuttle disaster occurred because management would not listen to the engineers. There was loud warnings coming from at least 1 engineer that launching in cold weather was a big risk. But management was determined to stick to the launch schedule and ignored the warnings.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    The outrage is the wealthy again tilting the playing field in ever more pervasive ways.

    The tragedy is those who don't get a chance at a 'good' college (or sometimes at college at all) because their places were stolen by cheaters. And sometimes, there are racial overtones to the consequences --

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/u...ions-race.html
    David G
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  29. #64
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Sure. But the ones who will write anyone script for Oxy or defraud insurers are not necessarily incompetent.

    I'm sure the folks who brought us to the great recession were quite competent. How about those who designed the space shuttle or Titanic, were they not competent?

    Competence, or lack of it, is only one part of anyone's makeup.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I guess you missed that I wrote "honest competence." It makes a big difference.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Elite universities make a difference to get your foot in the door at large corporations. They assume the degree and the rigors of an elite program means you know how to learn and will learn on the job.

    Smaller companies don't care. They require that you have a degree, but they want to know that you can hit the ground running, there's not any fat in the organization and they need results.

    Following two years in the metal trades (machinist, learned in high school two year program), I started out in community college then worked my way through a 4 year university that was mostly commuter students. Tuition was cheap and I could continue working. Took me 9 years total, graduated with zero debt. Good, but not great grades. I did much better out in the real world than in academia. Truthfully, the engineering program was not great, long on theory and short on applied projects, I had to fight hard to be allowed to do the first senior engineering project in the school's history. I cited a local competing school, very techy but more elite. My school: "They're training engineers now. We're training engineers of the future." Total B.S., you need to understand current state of the art before doing better. The competing school was designing race cars as projects (Formula SAE). I do my project, a vehicle design, build it too, gets high grades, I graduate. The next semester, the accreditation folks are doing a review, asks my U about applied projects, sees nothing, threatens to yank the accreditation, they pull out MY vehicle project, saves the day, the next semester there are multiple vehicle projects going on.

    About halfway through school, I take a summer position working for the government, was just a CAD draftperson working with engineers, saw a problem with a design and the engineer let me take the ball and run with it, I designed something better, that was my first patent. As a sophomore student. Only summer hire to ever do that.

    Fresh out of school, I got hired by a small office that was part of a much larger company. I aced the interview, they asked me technical questions and I hit the ball out of the park, but all of it was knowledge I learned outside of college, reading every car mag published, most books on racing, building stuff myself. They asked what I wanted for pay, I demanded 50% above the going rate. They asked if I would take less. I said a lot less, no, I had just gotten an offer from another company (true, but I wanted this job more, it was exactly the work I wanted to do), and a little less, "you're just nickle and diming me and that doesn't speak well of the company". I got the money. They never regretted it.

    Couple years later, someone phones me to try to wangle an interview based solely on the fact that they attended my alma mater. I responded that I don't work that way, I don't have a "club" mentality. Truth is, most folks coming out of that U were not very good technically. Now they are, the university has come a long way. One of the biggest companies in the world moved in next door, helpful in both directions. The U even started a medical school a few years back.

    I did well as an engineer at that first company, really saved the day for them, filled half the factory with business, but didn't have the secret management handshake, another engineer that was hired after me, couldn't design his way out of a wet paper bag, but was studying for his MBA at night and wore nicer suits, he got promoted. I stayed longer than I should have, too loyal, eventually I moved elsewhere to make a move up. Interviewing for the new job, they asked my current pay. I refused, I knew that would determine my new pay, they would probably offer 15-20% raise. Refused. They eventually offered almost double what I was making, almost six figures, plus $20k signing bonus and upped that for taxes so I would actually get $20k in my pocket, paid relocation, full benefits. Within a month I designed what would be my second patented design, even though I was a manager, but it was a nagging problem they had and I didn't want to distract my engineers from the new project they were working on.

    I continued to move for opportunities where the company was in serious trouble and they needed a fireman to put out the fire. Did well. But with my background and style, I don't think I would ever have moved up into upper management. Didn't have the secret handshake. And I actually cared about the people that worked for me.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    The space shuttle disaster occurred because management would not listen to the engineers. There was loud warnings coming from at least 1 engineer that launching in cold weather was a big risk. But management was determined to stick to the launch schedule and ignored the warnings.
    My point wasn't to point fingers as much as to point out that, in any project or enterprise, competence alone is not enough to avoid calamity. Other qualities, both tangible, and intangible, are required for success.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    Some thoughts from a Brown University professor --

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown...ntent=70837615

    There has, of course, always been influence on the process by people of wealth and power. But - whenever the concentration of wealth and power intensifies, like now - it gets worse. Another form of self-reinforcing dysfunction courtesy of laissez-faire policies...

    ... novel forms of favoritism have arisen in regard to college admissions at many elite private institutions.

    Last edited by David G; 03-16-2019 at 12:01 PM.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: SAT scam to get kids in college including Yale and Stamford. A long list of the r

    I'm just a guy that nails shingles on a roof and puts puts walls up.

    I appreciated engineers and architects but I think they need to serve a few years in the field.

    Why is this chimney in the middle of a valley?.

    HEY, this roof framing will not work as designed.

    Answer, the truss company will figure it out.

    Or you.
    .

    None of the windows are centered in any room..

    Sheet rock is structural, just use more nails?.

    These 2 valleys go into a flat roof that does not drain..

    Hey, I designed it, that does not mean I should ever have to ever show up again.

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