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Thread: Junk rigged pocket rocket

  1. #1
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    Default Junk rigged pocket rocket

    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    I should have put this in Designs.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    No comments?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    The speed on a reach would be limited by the difficulty double enders have planing, the speed upwind would be limited by the fact that junk rigs are not at their best going to windward, so why the name?

    I believe there is a way to move the thread.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    100 sq ft is a fairly reasonable size for a balanced lug. What advantages do you see with a Chinese lug for a sail this size?

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The speed on a reach would be limited by the difficulty double enders have planing, the speed upwind would be limited by the fact that junk rigs are not at their best going to windward, so why the name?

    I believe there is a way to move the thread.
    I think with the cambered panels it would handle quite well to windward, certainly enough to give a thrilling ride.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by St.J View Post
    100 sq ft is a fairly reasonable size for a balanced lug. What advantages do you see with a Chinese lug for a sail this size?
    The ease of handling is the main benefit, particularly when reefing, the number of panels allows incremental reductions in sail area.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Single mainsheet, or one of those bridle systems coming off of the battens? Even if sheeted to the stern stem it seems like you're pretty short back there for a bridle. Then again, I can't imagine needing to reef more than maybe the bottom three sections - at least in weather that's any fun to sail in. The mast as drawn would be pretty whippy, but its ability to bend to leeward and spill wind is one of those junk rig things and not necessarily bad.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    The sheet would attach to the boom and battens via what are known as sheetlets, these connect directly to the battens.
    However I will ask Paul and get back to you.
    Regarding the mast you don’t want any real bending to take place, if the mast is bending then it’s definitely time to reef.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Single mainsheet, or one of those bridle systems coming off of the battens? Even if sheeted to the stern stem it seems like you're pretty short back there for a bridle. Then again, I can't imagine needing to reef more than maybe the bottom three sections - at least in weather that's any fun to sail in. The mast as drawn would be pretty whippy, but its ability to bend to leeward and spill wind is one of those junk rig things and not necessarily bad.
    Mast bend, heaven forbid. Never happened on my boat though one of my battens has a slight curve to it after pushing the rig a bit hard to windward one time.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Well, I've sailed John's prototype Sei, and it's a great little boat. But it's little. I think the added complications of junk rig don't make sense in small boats. Easy enough with the balance lug rig as designed (which, if I remember right, is around 76 sq ft).

    Junk rigs are great, it seems to me, if your goal is to make it easy to handle and reef large sails. But Sei doesn't need large sails.

    Then again, I'm always thinking "cruiser" and not "pocket rocket..."

    Tom
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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    The sheet would attach to the boom and battens via what are known as sheetlets, these connect directly to the battens.
    However I will ask Paul and get back to you.
    Regarding the mast you don’t want any real bending to take place, if the mast is bending then it’s definitely time to reef.
    This is from the sail designer.
    Some type of horse that goes over the tiller (a fixed one) or even better, a small bumpkin that takes it just aft of the tiller.
    And this is from John Wesford the boat designer.
    I think it would be easy enough to crank the tiller around the stern stem and secure the sheeting point to that.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, I've sailed John's prototype Sei, and it's a great little boat. But it's little. I think the added complications of junk rig don't make sense in small boats. Easy enough with the balance lug rig as designed (which, if I remember right, is around 76 sq ft).

    Junk rigs are great, it seems to me, if your goal is to make it easy to handle and reef large sails. But Sei doesn't need large sails.

    Then again, I'm always thinking "cruiser" and not "pocket rocket..."

    Tom
    Having built and sailed a Phil Bolger Cartopper with it's 75 sq ft sail there were times when I wished I had less sail. Junk rigs really are not complex, they may look that way. Apart from the sheet which is the only line you will use to control the sail once it's up you have 3 other lines.
    Halyard : raises the yard and sail.
    Yard hauling parrel: pulls the sling point on the yard in close to the mast.
    Luff hauling parrel pulls the top of the luff down to basically remove the wrinkles from the sail.
    To use: raise the sail and cleat off the halyard. Pull the yard hauling parrel till the sling point is against the mast and cleat. Pull the luff hauling parrel till sail hangs correctly and cleat. To reef ease the halyard till the required number of panels are in the lazyjacks and cleat. Tension up the YHP and LHP and cleat.
    Easy as that.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Ha! A good lesson in where different people draw lines in different places. You say "easy as that"--and I say "Yee gads, that sounds awfully complicated to do the same thing I could do with just a sheet, halyard, and downhaul for the balance lugsail."

    Of course, if we all thought the same way, the world would be boring. Good luck if you try it. I briefly tried a junk rig with my 14' 6" Bolger Pirate Racer and it was a godawful mess.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ha! A good lesson in where different people draw lines in different places. You say "easy as that"--and I say "Yee gads, that sounds awfully complicated to do the same thing I could do with just a sheet, halyard, and downhaul for the balance lugsail."

    Of course, if we all thought the same way, the world would be boring. Good luck if you try it. I briefly tried a junk rig with my 14' 6" Bolger Pirate Racer and it was a godawful mess.

    Tom
    I thought a birdsmouth mast was complex to make till I made one. Do have a photo of the junk rig you made?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    A dinghy probably wouldn’t need the luff hauling parcel as it’s not a big rig.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I think with the cambered panels it would handle quite well to windward, certainly enough to give a thrilling ride.
    If you consider being out of control "thrilling", then it should be satisfying. His little hull is just overpowered in any kind of a blow. The hull is very limited in speed potential and will get very squirrel y when trying and failing to get past its natural hull speed. All small true double enders have this same trait so this is not a knock on the boat but it should not be expected to be what it is not.

    I agree that the boat will never live up to the name.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 03-14-2019 at 08:47 AM.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I think with the cambered panels it would handle quite well to windward, certainly enough to give a thrilling ride.
    How do you control cambered panels on a junk rig?

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I thought a birdsmouth mast was complex to make till I made one. Do have a photo of the junk rig you made?
    No. But it was a pretty crude affair, polytarp with wood battens. After putting it together I concluded the added complications would not improve anything, so I never even sailed with it. I concluded quite early on in driveway tests that in boats of this size, a junk rig does nothing that a balance lug can do more simply and conveniently, with less mess and fewer lines to manage.

    In big boats, I can definitely see the attraction of junk rig.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    How do you control cambered panels on a junk rig?
    Simply with the lines I described above, sail management is the same as for a flat cut sail. The cambered panels are just more efficient than the flat cut.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Junk rigged pocket rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    No. But it was a pretty crude affair, polytarp with wood battens. After putting it together I concluded the added complications would not improve anything, so I never even sailed with it. I concluded quite early on in driveway tests that in boats of this size, a junk rig does nothing that a balance lug can do more simply and conveniently, with less mess and fewer lines to manage.

    In big boats, I can definitely see the attraction of junk rig.

    Tom
    Not having had any experience with the balance lug I can’t say one way or the other. I am planning to put a JR on a Bolger Cartopper one day.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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