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Thread: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

  1. #666
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    That BBC article makes 2 things quite clear: how simple it actually was to regain control of the airplane, and how Boeing allowed the problem to develop in the first place.

    But the first thing that grabs an airline pilot's attention is that neither crew did the memorized recall drill. Sure the thing was yelling confusing crap at them, but the drill could hardly have been simpler.

  2. #667
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    That BBC article makes 2 things quite clear: how simple it actually was to regain control of the airplane, and how Boeing allowed the problem to develop in the first place.

    But the first thing that grabs an airline pilot's attention is that neither crew did the memorized recall drill. Sure the thing was yelling confusing crap at them, but the drill could hardly have been simpler.
    Not sure how, but you and I are getting a different read of the same article.

    I'm unconvinced that it is that simple. It depends on the air loading of the stabilizer. It is well documented that you may need to allow the aircraft to nose down some to allow nose up manual trim input. Not a great option when you have less than 2k ft of altitude, and that trim wheel takes a lot of turning.

    They had it in manual and were unable to get it the stabilizer nose up. In fact it went further nose down before they attempted reactivating the electric trim. That tells me they weretrying to turn the wheel nose up and were unable to, turned it nose down some thinking they could get it un-jammed (maybe it actually did jam), then as a last resort tried turning electric trim back on and it trimmed even further nose down due to MCAS activation again.


    This article covers the crew actions in some detail.(it does support my guess about what was happening) They had the electric trim in cutout within around 30 seconds of the first MCAS activation. A minute later it says that they were unable to manually trim the aircraft nose up. (jammed? Too aerodynamically loaded?)

    https://www.businessinsider.com/ethi...imeline-2019-4

    Three minutes into the flight, the Captain asked the First Officer if he could turn his manual trim wheel located on the center console. The First Officer replied he couldn't.
    I think it's far too soon to lay the blame on the crew not following procedure. Seems to me that they attempted that and the plane was unresponsive.

    I still believe flaps 5 would have resolved the issue as they would have had electric trim available again and the automatic nose down would have been a non issue since MCAS does not activate with flaps extended. They did screw up in not pulling the throttles back from takeoff power, but I could see the number of distractions being a factor.
    Tom

  3. #668
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    That BBC article makes 2 things quite clear: how simple it actually was to regain control of the airplane, and how Boeing allowed the problem to develop in the first place.

    But the first thing that grabs an airline pilot's attention is that neither crew did the memorized recall drill. Sure the thing was yelling confusing crap at them, but the drill could hardly have been simpler.

    i Practiced the runway trim in the 727, the closest thing to a 737 that I’ve flown. A million times in the simulator it was always the same: your flying along singing a song and then the trim starts rolling forward. 1) oppose with the yoke switch, 2) oppose with the yoke, 3) turn off the cut out switches.

    It was so obvious what the problem was.

    this was not that. Boeing was wrong to put pilots in a confusing situation and hope that they’d link it to the runaway trim scenario.

    aisa, Africa, India are growing their aviation at incredible rates. A friend of mine, here in the US, just upgraded to Capt on a jet with a fraction of the experience that the capt of the Ethiopian jet had.

    This experience level is going to migrate to the legacy carriers here.

    Manufacturers need to keep this in mind when designing aircraft.
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  4. #669
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    American Airlines pilots aren't too keen on Boeing blaming third world pilots. I agree with them.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/23/busin...ion/index.html

    FAA will not commit to a timetable for re-cerification
    https://www.thestreet.com/investing/...rance-14970525
    Tom

  5. #670
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Anyone who still thinks that Boeing has, and has had, a “culture of safety” needs to read this, about how things have been going with construction of Boeing’s 787:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/b...-carolina.html

    Undoubtedly there are Boeing employees who are concerned about safety -- but the corporate culture is one of making as much money as rapidly as possible, with safety clearly taking second or third place. There is no reason to think that things have been any different with the 737 program, and indeed, much to indicate that the 737 program is at least as bad,

    A few excerpts:

    “The Times’s article detailed a decade of problems at the South Carolina plant that continue to plague the factory. Debris was often left on finished jets, planes were badly damaged during the manufacturing process, and employees who tried to register complaints were frequently sidelined.”

    “An inspector for American Airlines who inspected 787s produced at the factory was so frustrated with the sloppy conditions there that he would collect debris left on planes in zip-lock bags and present them to Mr. Carbon.”

    “In recent months, Boeing has increased the production rate for 787s to 14 a month from 12. During the same period, it has reduced the number of quality inspectors at the plant."

    “’David has worked tirelessly the past three years to improve our production system and help us achieve the highest wide-body production rate in history,’ Mr. Zaback said of Mr. Carbon.” (Zaback is head of Boeing’s 787 program; it has just been announced that Carbon is leaving the company.)

    The whole article has more -- and of course, the whole reason the 737 is still being produced is that Boeing chose to update a decades-old design because bringing out a newly-designed plane would put them a year or more behind the new design being built by its chief competitor.

    So-called "self regulation" just does not work when those who lead a company, primarily interested in profits, control the choices made by those who actually design and build the planes (not to mention the careers of such folks).

    The article suggests that the FAA is now taking a somewhat more active hand in seeing about safety, but there seems to be no real change in the structure of how safety is regulated, and too much is still left to "self regulation."

  6. #671
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    American has their 737 MAX fleet out til sept 3 now. That gotta hurt the bottom line for the summer schedule.

    maxhttps://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/09/american-airlines-extends-boeing-737-max-to-september.html
    Tom

  7. #672
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    The 787 got a 5-hour ETOPS rating right out of the box. No demonstrated performance on the line, just predicted, plus test-flights.

    That smacked of corruption to me. Every other airplane had to earn it.

  8. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    The 787 got a 5-hour ETOPS rating right out of the box. No demonstrated performance on the line, just predicted, plus test-flights.

    That smacked of corruption to me. Every other airplane had to earn it.

    Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim?


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  9. #674
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    Default Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    The 787 got a 5-hour ETOPS rating right out of the box. No demonstrated performance on the line, just predicted, plus test-flights.

    That smacked of corruption to me. Every other airplane had to earn it.


    In fairness I think the A350 got similar treatment, though I do not know for sure.


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    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 06-09-2019 at 08:14 PM.
    Tom

  10. #675
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    Default

    From the Seattle Times a couple days ago: https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ht-until-2020/

    The 737 MAX has a cockpit warning light that informs the pilot that the two angle-of-attack indicators are in disagreement. In 2017, it was discovered that this warning system was inoperative. Boeing (1) didn't notify the FAA, (2) didn't issue a bulletin to notify the airlines flying the plane and their pilots about the problem.

    What they did do is, sotto voce, schedule a fix for this problem... in 2020, 3 years later.

    They fessed up to the FAA after the 1st 737 MAX faceplanted.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  11. #676
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    I really hope someone does time for this. . . .and not white collar time, but real time.
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  12. #677
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    From the Seattle Times a couple days ago: https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ht-until-2020/

    The 737 MAX has a cockpit warning light that informs the pilot that the two angle-of-attack indicators are in disagreement. In 2017, it was discovered that this warning system was inoperative. Boeing (1) didn't notify the FAA, (2) didn't issue a bulletin to notify the airlines flying the plane and their pilots about the problem.

    What they did do is, sotto voce, schedule a fix for this problem... in 2020, 3 years later.

    They fessed up to the FAA after the 1st 737 MAX faceplanted.
    nnbnm

    No excuse for that, and I agree with ck17. People died over this design, and that disagree indicator could have made a world of difference.
    Tom

  13. #678
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    nnbnm

    No excuse for that, and I agree with ck17. People died over this design, and that disagree indicator could have made a world of difference.

    I thought earlier you wanted transparency because that was what was needed to solve aviation incidents?

    Boeing has REALLY stepped on their own crank every step of this journey! They’ll be luck to be allowed to build boats again after all this washes out!

    My guess the CEO isn’t a pilot, which in a aviation business the CEO SHOULD be!

  14. #679
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    I thought earlier you wanted transparency because that was what was needed to solve aviation incidents?

    Boeing has REALLY stepped on their own crank every step of this journey! They’ll be luck to be allowed to build boats again after all this washes out!

    My guess the CEO isn’t a pilot, which in a aviation business the CEO SHOULD be!
    Just what makes you think that he now doesn't want transparency?

  15. #680
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    We''ll see what finally shakes out. I don't know how things work in your profession, but in aerospace there is distinctly not a culture of cover up. The culture is one of a quest for technical excellence and safety.
    Things may not yet have finally shaken out, but I think it is fair to say that Boeing's aerospace "culture" tolerates, and indeed, fosters cover up. And clearly, any "quest for excellence and safety" that might once have existed has been put aside in favor of the dominant corporate quest for -- what else? -- money.

    Let's see if anyone at Boeing loses their job over this -- Boeing's CEO still has his job. Let's see if his compensation is cut -- did he really deserve $23.4 million for last year?

    More importantly, let's see if the foxes continue to be allowed to guard the hen house. The current system of self-regulation apparently was instituted because the government regulators lacked the resources to do the job properly. Will an administration that prefers tax cuts to effective government do anything other than look the other way and continue with business as usual
    (after offering the usual pro forma thoughts and prayers to the victims of avoidable accidents)?

  16. #681
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W View Post
    Just what makes you think that he now doesn't want transparency?
    Much earlier in the thread , im
    pretty sure it was Tom who stayed IF trials or court proceedings where in play , the ranks would close and the really answers would be buried or at least much harder to find.
    pretty sure it was Tom who made a similar to that statement, but it’s been a long thread .

  17. #682
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    Things may not yet have finally shaken out, but I think it is fair to say that Boeing's aerospace "culture" tolerates, and indeed, fosters cover up. And clearly, any "quest for excellence and safety" that might once have existed has been put aside in favor of the dominant corporate quest for -- what else? -- money.

    Let's see if anyone at Boeing loses their job over this -- Boeing's CEO still has his job. Let's see if his compensation is cut -- did he really deserve $23.4 million for last year?

    More importantly, let's see if the foxes continue to be allowed to guard the hen house. The current system of self-regulation apparently was instituted because the government regulators lacked the resources to do the job properly. Will an administration that prefers tax cuts to effective government do anything other than look the other way and continue with business as usual
    (after offering the usual pro forma thoughts and prayers to the victims of avoidable accidents)?
    I've said it before... but what the hell. I had a rather interesting house guest a few months back. A former Boeing engineer. He was scathing of their culture - which was not about improvement, but about "this is how we've always done it". They weren't in the slightest bit interested in improvement.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  18. #683
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Yeah, I'm pretty pissed that Air NZ has announced its most recent fleet upgrade to be Boeings.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  19. #684
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    Things may not yet have finally shaken out, but I think it is fair to say that Boeing's aerospace "culture" tolerates, and indeed, fosters cover up. And clearly, any "quest for excellence and safety" that might once have existed has been put aside in favor of the dominant corporate quest for -- what else? -- money.

    Let's see if anyone at Boeing loses their job over this -- Boeing's CEO still has his job. Let's see if his compensation is cut -- did he really deserve $23.4 million for last year?

    More importantly, let's see if the foxes continue to be allowed to guard the hen house. The current system of self-regulation apparently was instituted because the government regulators lacked the resources to do the job properly. Will an administration that prefers tax cuts to effective government do anything other than look the other way and continue with business as usual
    (after offering the usual pro forma thoughts and prayers to the victims of avoidable accidents)?
    Although Dave jumped all over me for saying pretty much the same thing, he hasn't participated in about the last 100 posts. Perhaps the scales have fallen from his eyes.

  20. #685
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash


  21. #686
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    (video)
    This is post-processed, right? the planes did not fly so close to each other, with the smaller one aft, right?
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  22. #687
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    This is post-processed, right? the planes did not fly so close to each other, with the smaller one aft, right?
    I'll provide Boeing's answer, but do you suppose that it will be believed here?

    "This is a real video of our Boeing 737 MAX 9 and 787-10 Dreamliner being flown by our test pilots. No CG effects were used in any of the footage. Video was captured mostly from a chase plane and helicopter as our newest airplanes flew together for the first time over beautiful Washington State earlier this month."

  23. #688
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    I didn't see anything unreal in that video. There is a certain amount of bobbing which seems realistic, and the bank angles aren't perfectly matched which is often the case if #2 is holding some rudder on.

    The use of telephoto, or cropping a frame, can make aircraft seem extra close.

    Ive edited several formation videos in recent months, from my helmet-cam in the Spitfire. The location and point of view of the camera matters a lot.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rHcq4v_tP3E

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