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Thread: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Without trump's shutdown, this latest nose dive resulting in 157 deaths might never have happened.
    President Trump just announced the grounding of all US 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft (in flight aircraft soon as they land at their destination)
    Over compensating.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    This just in from The Grey Lady. Telling that the FAA didn't announce this. The offices of FAA Administrator and Deputy Administrator have been vacant now for something like 14 months.

    Trump Announces Ban of Boeing 737 Max Flights
    By Ian Austen and Selam Gebrekidan
    March 13, 2019

    President Trump announced that the United States was grounding Boeing’s 737 Max aircraft, reversing an earlier decision by American regulators to keep the jets flying in the wake of a second deadly crash involving one of the jets in Ethiopia.

    The Federal Aviation Administration had for days resisted calls to ground the plane even as safety regulators in some 42 countries had banned flights by the jets. As recently as Tuesday, the agency said it had seen “no systemic performance issues” that would prompt it to halt flights of the jet.

    “The safety of the American people, of all people, is our paramount concern,” Mr. Trump said.

    The order came hours after Canada’s transport minister said that newly available satellite-tracking data suggested similarities between the crash in Ethiopia and another accident last October.

    The crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 killed all 157 people on board, and took place just minutes after takeoff. In October, a 737 Max 8 operated by Lion Air, an Indonesian carrier, crashed in similar circumstance and 189 people were killed.

    Marc Garneau, Canada’s transport minister, had said that satellite tracing data of the vertical path of the Ethiopian jet at take off and similar data from the Lion Air crash showed similar “vertical fluctuations” and “oscillations.”

    The jets typically make more than 8,500 flights per week worldwide.

    The groundings in North America also come after Ethiopian Airlines said that one of two pilots on Sunday’s flight reported “flight-control problems” to air traffic controllers minutes before the plane crashed and told controllers that he wanted to turn back to Bole International Airport in Addis Ababa. The pilot was cleared to do so, three minutes before contact was lost with the cockpit, a spokesman for the airline said on Wednesday.

    The disclosure suggests that a problem with the handling of the aircraft or the computerized flight control system could have been a factor. There has been no suggestion so far of terrorism or other outside interference in the functioning of the aircraft, which was only a few months old.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Yeah - I was surprised trump reversed course.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Does anyone know roughly how many flights the 737 MAX has made, total?
    President Grover Cleveland confirmed the principle in 1887, explaining his veto of a bill passed by Congress to provide financial aid to the poor. “The lesson should be constantly enforced,” he said, “that though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.”

  5. #215
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post

    "Boeing announced late Monday that it would upgrade software systems in the company's 737 Max 8 airliners after one of the models was involved in a deadly crash in Ethiopia that killed 157 people.

    The company didn't reference Sunday's crash in the announcement, according to Reuters, which reportedly stated that Boeing had “been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 Max, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer.”


    The new software patch “will be deployed across the 737 Max fleet in the coming weeks,” the company said, according to Reuters."
    https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/433620-boeing-upgrading-software-in-new-737s-after-deadly-crashes

    Some comments have been made that the "government shut-down" had delayed the implementation of the "fix" by at least five weeks.
    Is this why Two Scoops has inserted himself into the situation, reputation damage control?
    Nosce te ipsum

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaseLockedLoop View Post
    Does anyone know roughly how many flights the 737 MAX has made, total?
    Well over 100k. I'd guess southwest has done 50k alone. 34 in the fleet, 3-4 legs a day...
    Tom

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    It had to be Trump’s fault some how! Or maybe Hilter’s , or are they one in the same???

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    If his wall tantrum and the shutdown delayed a software rollout then yes, he is accountable.
    Nosce te ipsum

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Well over 100k. I'd guess southwest has done 50k alone. 34 in the fleet, 3-4 legs a day...
    on npr this morning southwest said they had completed 54k flights in their 737 max aircraft

    damn you're good tom, a pleasure to read your thoughts on anything aircraft and airline related here!
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  10. #220
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Bloomberg announced that France will be getting the blackboxes, a country with the most notorious depiction of air investigations in the "Air Disasters" series among developed countries. Not only blaming the Concorde crash on debris from a highly penalized US airliner on skimpy evidence, but in (eastern?) France they posted a guard by burning blackboxes until they were destroyed as rescuers watched. This was to prevent a recurrence of another loony French investigation where the pilot was blamed, but successfully sued for innocence when he claimed a few minutes absence of guarding the blackbox allowed falsified data to be loaded.

    So who is to blame for what. The crash country waited too long with the black boxes unread so that the 737max got the the blame without evidence. That wreaked global havoc on air travel despite it's statistically safe record. Norway is already demanding compensation from Boeing who is judged guilty without evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    This just in from The Grey Lady. Telling that the FAA didn't announce this. The offices of FAA Administrator and Deputy Administrator have been vacant now for something like 14 months.
    So the last FAA admin was held up for 5 months in a confirmation witch hunt, and now there are hundreds of appointments unconfirmed due to knee jerk political warfare. And don't tell me the shutdown blame wasn't shared by the mindless opposition-for-it's-own-sake by the hardliner opposition.

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    It had to be Trump’s fault some how! Or maybe Hilter’s , or are they one in the same???
    It doesnt matter, you would probably vote for either!
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    careful now, that's strong koolaide. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    Bloomberg announced that France will be getting the blackboxes, a country with the most notorious depiction of air investigations in the "Air Disasters" series among developed countries. Not only blaming the Concorde crash on debris from a highly penalized US airliner on skimpy evidence, but in (eastern?) France they posted a guard by burning blackboxes until they were destroyed as rescuers watched. This was to prevent a recurrence of another loony French investigation where the pilot was blamed, but successfully sued for innocence when he claimed a few minutes absence of guarding the blackbox allowed falsified data to be loaded.

    So who is to blame for what. The crash country waited too long with the black boxes unread so that the 737max got the the blame without evidence. That wreaked global havoc on air travel despite it's statistically safe record. Norway is already demanding compensation from Boeing who is judged guilty without evidence.


    So the last FAA admin was held up for 5 months in a confirmation witch hunt, and now there are hundreds of appointments unconfirmed due to knee jerk political warfare. And don't tell me the shutdown blame wasn't shared by the mindless opposition-for-it's-own-sake by the hardliner opposition.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    So the last FAA admin was held up for 5 months in a confirmation witch hunt, and now there are hundreds of appointments unconfirmed due to knee jerk political warfare. And don't tell me the shutdown blame wasn't shared by the mindless opposition-for-it's-own-sake by the hardliner opposition.
    Remarkable.

    What are you doing about it?




  14. #224
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    So the last FAA admin was held up for 5 months in a confirmation witch hunt, and now there are hundreds of appointments unconfirmed due to knee jerk political warfare. And don't tell me the shutdown blame wasn't shared by the mindless opposition-for-it's-own-sake by the hardliner opposition.
    John Dunkin, Two Scoops' own personal pilot. Just to be clear who we are talking about. . .
    Nosce te ipsum

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    Is this why Two Scoops has inserted himself into the situation, reputation damage control?
    Yup right on time ol' two scoops. Before another one falls out of the sky, because if it does his name would be all over it.
    He might be able to obfuscate the existing damage by repeated tweeting of something inane.
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 03-13-2019 at 07:00 PM. Reason: spillink

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by S/V Laura Ellen View Post
    That right, it will make the safe airplane even safer.

    In similar new, the Australian government is making some changes to shipping regs.
    All vessels made of cardboard or cardboard derivatives must remain outside the environment when transporting petrochemical products.
    Is that because the front fell off? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

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    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    Remarkable.
    it were the first two paragraphs of that post that got me

    the rest is typical rw partisan bickering
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    And now Boeing has grounded all 371 MAX aircraft.

    From the BBC:

    Boeing has grounded its entire global fleet of 737 Max aircraft after investigators uncovered new evidence at the scene of the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash.
    The US plane-maker said it would suspend all 371 of the aircraft.
    The Federal Aviation Administration said fresh evidence as well as newly refined satellite data prompted the decision to temporarily ban the jets.
    The FAA had previously held out while many countries banned the aircraft.
    The crash on Sunday in Addis Ababa killed 157 people.
    It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in five months after one crashed over Indonesia in October, claiming 189 lives.
    What has the FAA discovered?

    The FAA has a team investigating the disaster at the Ethiopian Airlines crash site working with the National Transportation Safety Board.
    Dan Elwell, acting administrator at the FAA, said on Wednesday: "It became clear to all parties that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines [flight] was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight."
    He added that "the evidence we found on the ground made it even more likely the flight path was very close to Lion Air's".
    President Donald Trump initially announced that the FAA would be making an emergency order following "new information and physical evidence that we've received from the site and from other locations and through a couple of other complaints".
    The US is the latest country to suspend the Boeing 737 Max from flying after nations include the UK, the European Union, China, India and Australia all grounded the aircraft.
    Up until today, the FAA position was that a review had showed "no systemic performance issues" and that there was no basis for grounding the aircraft.
    Earlier on Wednesday, Canada grounded the planes after its transport minister Marc Garneau said he had received new evidence about the crash.
    He said that satellite data showed possible similarities between flight patterns of Boeing 737 Max planes operating in Canada and the Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed.
    What has Boeing said?

    Boeing, the US plane manufacturer, said that it "continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 Max".
    However, it added that after consultation with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board it had decided to ground the flights "out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety".
    Dennis Muilenburg, president, chief executive and chairman of Boeing, said: "We are doing everything we can to understand the cause of the accidents in partnership with the investigators, deploy safety enhancements and help ensure this does not happen again."
    Image copyrightGETTY IMAGESImage captionPeople gather at the Ethiopian Airline crash siteSara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, said: "Lives must come first always. But a brand is at stake as well. And that brand is not just Boeing. It's America. What America means in international aviation and by extension in the larger world more generally—that we set the standard for safety, competence, and honesty in governance of aviation.
    Shares in Boeing ticked higher to $377 each following the announcement.
    However, the company's market value has dropped by nearly $26bn since the crash in Ethiopia at the weekend.
    What will happen to airline customers?

    Southwest Airlines said it had immediately removed all 34 of the planes from scheduled service.
    Although it has the biggest fleet of Boeing 737 Max 8 planes in the world, Southwest Airlines said they account "for less than 5% of our daily flights".
    It said it is offering "flexible rebooking policies" which means that any customer booked on a cancelled Max 8 flight can rebook on alternate flights "without any additional fees or fare differences within 14 days of their original date of travel".
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    it were the first two paragraphs of that post that got me
    It's a feverish swamp, to be sure. But this is the French we're talking about. Y'know, cheese-eating surrender monkeys. Freedom Fries. All that.

    What are you doing about it?




  20. #230
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    And the top three people in the FAA are just “acting”. And McConnell’s wife is Secretary of Transportation.

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    And the top three people in the FAA are just “acting”. And McConnell’s wife is Secretary of Transportation.
    And no one at the FAA will take responsibility because they are not employed, or even likely qualified, to do so. So it's donald's gig no? Him being the next stop up the line?

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    It's a feverish swamp, to be sure. But this is the French we're talking about. Y'know, cheese-eating surrender monkeys. Freedom Fries. All that.
    The French choose to be different, and this seems to apply to several French accident investigations. I have seen very impressive investigations done even in Venezuela by contrast. Right down to root causes without making easy scapegoats. But you are implying my naive bias; if you don't count living nextdoor to New Brunswick or Quebec for half of my life, then consider later eccentric impressions:

    I loved the Paris airshows of decades ago, but they were reckless and crashes were common. Modest looking Mirages would steal the show with long afterburner runups parked in front of crowd, then tight aerial maneuvers never drifting out of sight unless they were sneaking behind you for a near supersonic run just above your head. The US team by contrast would do lazy flybys curving away from the crowd so you only saw an occasional belly. Oh, there was a single good U.S. A-10 performance, but he crashed right in front of me after a too low loop.

    I signed up for a French camel tour thru the Algerian Sahara, and nobody else showed up - was cancelled without telling me. A fixer had taken return air tix as usual for group travel and put me in a grass shack. No food, no english spoken, no dollars accepted, but oasis water was plentiful (Sahara has massive prehistoric deep water deposits). Just before I starved to death, a group of French rural types kindly let me join their camel train. At the end, even they couldn't retrieve air tix, and it was the theater of the absurd of our mob trying to find a non objecting airliner on Tamanrasset parking apron.

    Finally I ordered a new small sailboat from France a year ago, and they gave me free air shipping across 11 timezones - who would do that! I just discovered today some very eccentric tradeoffs their design took that would never be expected outside of France. Anyway I sooo miss Normandy cider, the finest drink that cannot be appreciated as an export because the alch level is too weak to preserve it's subtle points. Working on making my own...
    Last edited by rudderless; 03-14-2019 at 04:11 AM.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    I must be missing something.

    Two almost new new American built aircraft crash, one in Indonesia, one in Ethiopia, in rather similar circumstances, both with heavy loss of life, and a thread on the subject turns into “let’s bash the French”?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I must be missing something.

    Two almost new new American built aircraft crash, one in Indonesia, one in Ethiopia, in rather similar circumstances, both with heavy loss of life, and a thread on the subject turns into “let’s bash the French”?
    there's an anti american conspiracy that the black boxes have been sent to france instead of amerika for evaluation. . .good **** no?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  25. #235
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Now being stated that they found evidence in the wreckage about the aircraft configuration that led them to grounding. I suspect they found the stabilizer jackscrew at the end of it's (aircraft)nose down travel. There are not many things that would be easily identifiable as to flight control position at impact but that one would be obvious.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/world...ntl/index.html
    In its emergency order, the FAA said "new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities" with the Lion Air crash.
    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 03-14-2019 at 06:57 AM.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Now being stated that they found evidence in the wreckage about the aircraft configuration that led them to grounding. I suspect they found the stabilizer jackscrew at the end of it's (aircraft)nose down travel. There are not many things that would be easily identifiable as to flight control position at impact but that one would be obvious.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/world...ntl/index.html
    I am sure you are right. Big bits of metal. One’s heart goes out to those on board.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I am sure you are right. Big bits of metal. One’s heart goes out to those on board.
    And their families.

  28. #238
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    And their families.
    ... and friends. As mentioned the other day, one of the young ladies I was traveling with was a current classmate and good friend of one passenger - who was attending university in Washington DC. She was understandably upset at the news.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  29. #239
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    One of Oystagirl's former RAs lost his girlfriend. There were a number of bright young folks on that flight who were headed to a big UN environment conference.

    What are you doing about it?




  30. #240
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Any pilots have access to a simulator to try something?.....
    Since there is general agreement that MCAS is the problem, why not just turn the POS OFF? Is the plane too hard to fly without it? It shouldn't do anything until flaps are fully retracted, so don't retract flaps to zero until you have a nice, thick cushion of air under you.

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    One of Oystagirl's former RAs lost his girlfriend. There were a number of bright young folks on that flight who were headed to a big UN environment conference.
    A UN environment conference? Oh oh...

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    A UN environment conference? Oh oh...
    its on now
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Now being stated that they found evidence in the wreckage about the aircraft configuration that led them to grounding. I suspect they found the stabilizer jackscrew at the end of it's (aircraft)nose down travel. There are not many things that would be easily identifiable as to flight control position at impact but that one would be obvious.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/world...ntl/index.html

    Wonder if was lubed properly , jackscrews caused some crashes years back for lack of lubrication. Not sure what type AC , but maybe the civilian equillvent of the USN C-9.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    i think the conjecture is that they found a jack screw mechanism trimmed to its maximum position which would correspond to the faulty inputs from that aoa sensor
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Wonder if was lubed properly , jackscrews caused some crashes years back for lack of lubrication. Not sure what type AC , but maybe the civilian equillvent of the USN C-9.
    At 4 months old it s not going to have a chance of having the type of failure that caused the Alsaka MD80 to go down. That was a lubrication and wear issue.

    Paul has it right, the stab trimmed to it's max (aircraft) nose down (elevator nose up) position caused by the MCAS trying to compensate for a stall that didn't actually occur and the crew couldn't over come the stab with elevator input. (at least that is what I was getting at with my post).
    Tom

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