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Thread: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

  1. #1
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    Default Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    No survivors. Apparently just stopped transmitting any information in flight, basically fell out of the sky. No transmissions of altitude or airspeed changes prior to crashing. Last known altitude was 9027 ft where terrain was 8100 ft. Sounds like a midair breakup. Will be interesting to hear the cause.
    http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a&opt=0
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/10/afric...ntl/index.html
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Could it be a MCAS problem again,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/w...ir-crash-.html

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Doesn't sound at all similar to me. Should have seen changes in airspeed and altitude if that were the case. Faulty altitude? Thought they were at 9k and were actually at 8k? That seems very unlikely though with system redundancy.

    It's really too early to make any kind of guess. Need data.
    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 03-10-2019 at 08:33 AM.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    A new aircraft with a senior experienced pilot. Not some third world piece of junk with a rookie in the cockpit.
    The flight recorders will be interesting if found intact.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    CBC is reporting 18 Canadians on board.
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
    .

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Similarities to the Amazon Prime crash in Houston?
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Similarities to the Amazon Prime crash in Houston?
    Still no real info on that one either.

    CNN is reporting the Ethiopian crew was having difficulties and asked to turn back.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/10/afric...ntl/index.html
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    A new aircraft with a senior experienced pilot. Not some third world piece of junk with a rookie in the cockpit.
    The flight recorders will be interesting if found intact.
    A paternal aunt and my elder brother flew on Ethiopian Airlines in 1959 somewhere in the Middle East and were overwhelmed by the exquisite decor of the cabin and gracefulness of the crew.

    Good times, as when Israel would allow overseas visitors to cross over the frontier from Jordan, say, just for a half-day 'peep-around' accompanied by the tour operator, less stamping their passports, which otherwise could land them in trouble on returning to their countries of origin

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    CNN is reporting the Ethiopian crew was having difficulties and asked to turn back.
    Sounds just like the Lion Air crash, reported issues with airspeed and auto-anti stall putting the plane in a nose down attitude.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Sounds just like the Lion Air crash, reported issues with airspeed and auto-anti stall putting the plane in a nose down attitude.
    I haven't seen an article stating what difficulties they were reporting. The first two didn't mention it. Do you have an article that shows that?
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    A new aircraft with a senior experienced pilot. Not some third world piece of junk with a rookie in the cockpit.
    The flight recorders will be interesting if found intact.
    The F/O had 200 hours. 200 HOURS! That's ridiculous! No one operating a 737 in North America would even remotely consider that an appropriate level of experience for the job. That's basically still a commercial flight student.

    The Captain was working solo, for all practical purposes.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Crazy. And so tragic. I hope it was just a horrible accident, and not malfeasance.

    Once again, I'd like to thank the airplane cats for weighing in on these incidents. Some of my favorite threads are the airplane cats explaining planes. Even these gruesome crash threads. Thanks for helping us all understand how planes work, and sometimes don't...

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Fly by wire has issues it seems.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I haven't seen an article stating what difficulties they were reporting. The first two didn't mention it. Do you have an article that shows that?
    Not to hand, but i believe the BBC covered it. The crew logged issues the previous day, difference in air speed indicators on both sides, it was said to have been fixed.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    The F/O had 200 hours. 200 HOURS! That's ridiculous! No one operating a 737 in North America would even remotely consider that an appropriate level of experience for the job. That's basically still a commercial flight student.

    The Captain was working solo, for all practical purposes.
    This I agree with. 200 hours is nothing!! Damn.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Doesn’t look like a mid air break up, later articles show the CEO standing on top of dirt saying most of the AC is underground! The smoking hole in the ground looks like a auger in!

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Not that long ago FOs we’re flying jets in the US with a few hundred hours, congress wisely fixed that.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Kyle Bailey, an aviation analyst and pilot, said the pilot's distress call signalled that the plane may have gone down due to a "controllability issue" than an explosion.

    "That may lead me to believe that the problem wasn't imperatively serious," he told Al Jazeera from New Jersey. "Typically in major disasters when crashes happen, when there are explosions, usually there is no communication from the pilots," Bailey added.

    "The pilots are so focused on that catastrophic event, that they don't have time to call air traffic control.
    The fact that there was a call made to air traffic control, in this instance, makes us believe that it was a controllability issue - that they were struggling for control."

    Ethiopian Airlines flight #ET302 dropped from radar 6 minutes after departure from Addis Ababa

    The jet is a brand new Boeing 737 MAX 8 - delivered to the airline just four months ago.



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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    In a more general sense, countries outside of Europe and N America are the ones currently stimulating the aircraft manufacturing business, or comprise the major customers of commerical aircraft.

    As always suc surges in growth rate survive along with the usual limitations, viz., the availability of qualified pilots, airport infrastructure, air traffic control etc.

    As aircaft become increasingly automated, it begs the question whether said automation is really up to the mark, in as much as pilots schooled from an early stage in actually flying aircraft are known to have certain reservations in regard to entrusting the flight to automata.

    On the older Boeing aircraft, a captain could take control of the aircraft and relegate the autopilot to stand-by.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by carioca1232001 View Post
    In a more general sense, countries outside of Europe and N America are the ones currently stimulating the aircraft manufacturing business, or comprise the major customers of commerical aircraft.

    As always suc surges in growth rate survive along with the usual limitations, viz., the availability of qualified pilots, airport infrastructure, air traffic control etc.

    As aircaft become increasingly automated, it begs the question whether said automation is really up to the mark, in as much as pilots schooled from an early stage in actually flying aircraft are known to have certain reservations in regard to entrusting the flight to automata.

    On the older Boeing aircraft, a captain could take control of the aircraft and relegate the autopilot to stand-by.
    The problem is that some idiot at the factory told the AI that it is smarter than the pilot, and it won't give up control without a fight.
    When you're only a few thousand metres up, you don't have time for lengthy discussions with recalcitrant computers.

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

    Ithaka, by Cavafy
    (Keeley - Sherrard translation)

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpiefan View Post
    The problem is that some idiot at the factory told the AI that it is smarter than the pilot, and it won't give up control without a fight.
    When you're only a few thousand metres up, you don't have time for lengthy discussions with recalcitrant computers.
    Fly by wire is the problem, IMO. But it is the future and ALL things that are new take some “working out”.

    Without control cables linked to the stick the pilot is cut out of the equation.

    But like a young naval aviator told me about the new electro magnetic cats on the USS Ford , which “could “ fail 1 in 500 cat shots , innovation HAS to happen. Like O bogs in the FA-18 , we used to use LOX , oxygen in a bottle , NOW we make oxygen from engine bleed air! What could go wrong right? Aircrews get hypoxia, engineers say “it ain’t possible” , crews have landed on the ship and have NO recollection of the landing!!! Good training , being able to land and not remember , or maybe the jet landed itself ?? A plus for fly by wire maybe??? But shouldn’t the crew be awake while landing on the boat???

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Not a mid air break up!

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpiefan View Post
    The problem is that some idiot at the factory told the AI that it is smarter than the pilot, and it won't give up control without a fight.
    When you're only a few thousand metres up, you don't have time for lengthy discussions with recalcitrant computers.
    Im guessing when everything is so automated, unfortunately there is probably not just one switch that can be flicked to give back manual control. I cant imagine having to scroll through pages on a menu and check boxes while all hell is breaking loose, all the while losing altitude. I hope the black boxes give up the details.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Looks like a very high velocity impact.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Im guessing when everything is so automated, unfortunately there is probably not just one switch that can be flicked to give back manual control. I cant imagine having to scroll through pages on a menu and check boxes while all hell is breaking loose, all the while losing altitude. I hope the black boxes give up the details.

    There IS no manual control , all inputs go thru a computer most likely multiple computers , to servo’s or actuators that move the control surfaces.

    No cables connecting the stick or yoke to said control surfaces.
    Fly by wire = bad ju ju when the computer needs “re-booted” , or decides it knows better than the pilots.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Where do all the body parts go???

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Where do all the body parts go???

    In the ground , that’s going to be a messy , stinky recovery effort! The passengers and crew won’t really care ;-))

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    This flight left Johannesburg on Sunday for Addis Ababa. I was asked by my company to travel to Ethiopia to look at an acquisition opportunity just last week. Needless to say, I am not going.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    An eyewitness at the scene told the BBC there was an intense fire as the aircraft hit the ground.

    "The blast and the fire were so strong that we couldn't get near it," he said. "Everything is burnt down."

    Many of the body parts were probably cremated.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Some here may recall the series of accidents that occurred as San Francisco´s mass transport system (BART) began operations some time in the 1970´s ?

    BART´S main contractor at the time was Westinghouse Corp. and the highly-skilled work-force allotted to this task were people who had been relieved of their duties at NASA and its suppliers.

    It is not just PhD´s that you need on such innovative projects, but also 'old-salts' who know the all the nitty-gritty of operating rail-roads and associated transport systems.

    Aircraft are no exception.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrlw2cm-jc



    An example of marrying the 'people in the know' with those in the 'know-how'
    Last edited by carioca1232001; 03-10-2019 at 03:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Im guessing when everything is so automated, unfortunately there is probably not just one switch that can be flicked to give back manual control. I cant imagine having to scroll through pages on a menu and check boxes while all hell is breaking loose, all the while losing altitude. I hope the black boxes give up the details.
    I'm flying my desk at work and my computer does something strange. It usually takes at least a few minutes to figure it out, reboot, or recover. To get in that situation on an airplane would be frightening indeed.

    I'm reminded of this Air New Zealand test flight where the computer flagged a sensor fault but the pilots did not recognize it in time.

    Will

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Camman airways has grounded theirs. China has asked all domestic carriers to park all MAXs
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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    Camman airways has grounded theirs. China has asked all domestic carriers to park all MAXs
    Sounds prudent. I wonder if the North American carriers will do the same?
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
    .

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    Default Re: Ethiopian air 737 max crash

    In a fly-by-wire aircraft the control column -- or side-stick, it doesnt matter which -- is not connected to any flight control. It is only a kind of programming device. With it, the pilot is telling the flight-management-computer how to move the hull. The FMC decides which controls to move, and how much, depending on the rate and displacement of the wheel/stick. But no direct connection exists.

    When the crap hits the ventilator sufficiently, it can revert to a direct-law mode, where the flight management system makes almost no interpretations, but again, no direct connection between the stick and the flight controls exists.

    No one is going back to DC-8s. That time has passed.

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